The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
UchihaMadara
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

DDO raps should be lyrically complex

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
UchihaMadara
Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/14/2014 Category: Music
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 692 times Debate No: 63256
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

See " Debate settings " for list of judges. If you would like to suggest some, let me know.

I argue that while I appreciate rap battles on DDO, I believe that raps should have lots of creativity in them and use alot of advanced rapping techniques.

First round acceptance
UchihaMadara

Con

Accepted.
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

I've noticed some rap battles on DDO aren't as noticed than those with more substance in them.

Generally rap battles are won using the following:

1) Humor and jokes

2) Aggression

3) Lyrics

4) Personals

http://www.askmen.com...

An example of a rap battle which incorporates these techniques is one i had with the user "RevL8ion"

http://www.debate.org...

I start with two words that rhyme then use alot of complex rhyme schemes such as multis, slant rhymes, internal rhymes, alliteration, personals, dissed his religion, looks, as well as brag about myself. He responds with personals and internal rhymes as well.

He raps "I laugh at your rhythm and fire a shotgun shell, your bars are as infertile as all of your sperm cells" in which i counter with:

"You said my bars are as infertile as my sperm cells
Well yours are as fragile as your biological egg shells
Your bars are as jacked up as a woman's own ovaries
It's cuz you been forcing em' when you make deliveries"

This battle had good reviews in the vote section. My point is that it takes dedication to make personals and write multis, internal rhymes, slant rhymes, etc. He obviously did some research on my user history. Multis is considered advanced rapping (1). Rapping lyrically complex demonstrates how creative you are and how much effort you put into your raps.

Sources:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
UchihaMadara

Con

Thanks, TS.

My opening argument is very simple: the value of rap is completely subjective, and as such, we cannot rationally state that it objectively "should" have a certain characteristic-- there is no real 'right vs. wrong' or 'should vs. should not', when it comes to art forms such as rap. We are unable to objectively label a piece of art as 'good' or 'bad' because, ultimately, art has no objective meaning-- its value is based solely in the subjective preferences of the artist and audience. A painting is just lines and color placed on a canvas to form various shapes and patterns. A music piece is simply a series of varying pitches played from one or more instrument. Rap is nothing more than a bunch of words strung together in a rhythmic fashion. In each case, some find the arrangement of artistic elements to be pleasing, while others might find it to be abhorrent. In affirming the resolution, Pro asserts that it is objectively desirable for raps to be 'lyrically complex', but that is impossible-- when it comes to art, what is 'desirable' and what is not is completely up to the individual's subjective preferences. Pro must somehow show that his interpretation of what makes a string of words 'better' is superior to everyone else's interpretations.

The resolution is negated.
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

Con argues that there is no objectivity in rap however this debate was never intended to be objective or otherwise i would not have phrased it as "DDO raps should be lyrically complex" let alone debate in the arts at all. I realize that the word "should" implies that an opinion is held, therefore Con cannot win the debate so easily. I never intended this debate to be as objective as a scientific one for example, however i do expect Con to argue using rap sources and sound reasoning to support his position that DDO raps should not be lyrically complex.
UchihaMadara

Con

I will be using this round to rebut Pro's aff case.
Pro's primary argument is that because rap battles on DDO are supposedly won using 'lyrically complex' techniques, all DDO raps should be conducted in the same style. The only evidence he provides for this is an example of one of his own rap battles which was supposedly well-received by the voters. There are two major flaws with this case...

1. It is a clear non-sequitur. The fact that rap battles are supposedly won with lyrical complexity doesn't show that rap battles should be lyrically complex. This logic assumes that winning is the only meaningful purpose of rapping on DDO. So what if lacking lyrical complexity loses you the rap battle? What is wrong with rapping for self-expression, for conveying a message, or just for the fun of it? Simple raps can serve those purposes just as well, even if we accept Pro's premise about winning rap battles. Without warranting this assumption, his whole argument is rendered logically invalid. Moreover, this argument is also an is/ought fallacy-- observing that things *are* done a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that things *should* be done that way. The same logic could have been used to justify slavery (i.e. "slavery has always been a part of human society, and therefore should be allowed to continue"). Pro's argument is thoroughly fallacious.

2. Pro's evidence is not enough to actually prove the assertion that DDO rap battles are generally won using lyrically complex techniques. He only presents a single debate and expects us to accept that as evidence for all his claims. But this is a clear-cut example of small sample size fallacy-- there are currently hundreds of rap battles on DDO, so it is incredibly fallacious inductive logic to make a rule based on that one debate and apply that rule to all the raps on the site. Without properly demonstrating that lyrically complex raps generally lead to wins, his already-invalid argument is even further defeated. And as for Pro's mention of his sample rap battle's 'positive reviews', I would like to point out that there were a grand total of 2 voters who said the rap battle was 'good' in their RFDs.

Pro also briefly makes the claim that "rapping lyrically complex demonstrates how creative you are and how much effort you put into your raps", but this succumbs to the same flaw exposed in objection 1-- Pro never warrants the assumption that the purpose of a rap battle is to demonstrate your creativity and effort.
In conclusion, Pro's case is filled to the brim with logical fallacies. The resolution is negated.
Debate Round No. 3
Truth_seeker

Pro

Truth_seeker forfeited this round.
UchihaMadara

Con

Pro's only response to my opening argument is that the resolution isn't meant to assert an objective claim, but that it is simply an expression of his opinion. That is just absurd. If that were the case, all I'd need to do in order to match his level of argumentation is assert my own opinion, which is enough to win the debate given that BOP is on Pro. But besides that, he contradicts himself later on by insisting that I present "sources and sound reasoning" in order to negate the resolution, implying that I should support my side of the resolution as an objective claim (i.e. a factual claim that can be empirically demonstrated). Unless Pro is using some sort of blatant double standard, he is implicitly conceding that he, too, with his sources and reasoning, is attempting to objectively affirm the resolution. Hence, his rebuttal is simply an attempt at dodging my point, and my argument regarding the subjectivity of art forms still applies-- it is logically impossible to make the claim that lyrical complexity is an objectively desirable characteristic in raps.

The resolution is negated.

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
Go head
Posted by UchihaMadara 2 years ago
UchihaMadara
TS, do you mind if I wait until the last minute to accept? I have some IRL stuff coming up and wouldn't want to accidentally forfeit.
Posted by intellectuallyprimitive 2 years ago
intellectuallyprimitive
As it pertains to lyrics, it should reflect the individual, and highlight that individuals feelings, thoughts, ideologies, personal convictions, interests, or merely rhyme. Complexity does not denote an interesting debate, albeit it could, it should not have to be complex. Creativity is important, but as I stated below, Pro's opening statements include that the lyrics should be creative, yet the topic suggests that the lyrics should be complex, which the two, in this particular context, are mutually exclusive.
Posted by JasperFrancisShickadance 2 years ago
JasperFrancisShickadance
Why should they not?
Posted by intellectuallyprimitive 2 years ago
intellectuallyprimitive
Creativity and complexity are not necessarily analogous. I'm tempted to accept this, because I am compelled raps should be the conveying of ideas and self-expression, which do not need to be complex.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Truth_seekerUchihaMadaraTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Truth_seekerUchihaMadaraTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF...Conduct to Con.