The Instigator
Darth_Grievous_42
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points
The Contender
Scyrone
Con (against)
Losing
17 Points

Darth Vader did not deserve redemption.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,371 times Debate No: 3340
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (8)

 

Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

If you have seen Return of the Jedi, you know that Vader 'redeems' himself by throwing the Emperor into a crevasse in the Death Star thus saving his son, then after he dies, is able to stand among the Jedi again. I do not think he deserved it. Thus, the polar opposite of my stance that my opponent will have to defend is that Darth Vader did deserve redemption. I'll ask that someone with Expanded Universe knowledge, as well as movie, accept this debate. This will be the first of many Star Wars debates, as I haven't been interested in many recent Challenge debates.

Darth Vader did not deserve his Jedi redemption. He committed too many atrocities for just 1 act of heroism to make up for it. Vader's death count probably exceeds the millions, most by way of his orders, but still a considerable amount (probably in the thousands) by his own hand, many of which were his fellow Jedi. If you've seen Revenge of the Sith, you already know that when Order 66 came into place, he, along with the 501st, marched into the Jedi Temple and slaughtered hundreds of Jedi, including younglings. After being put in the infamous suit, he launched a massive Jedi hunt, personally going on hundreds of missions searching and eventually killing any he found. Along the way he annihilated any possible resistance. In his many campaigns, he ordered Orbital bombardments on cities, publicly tortured citizens, killed his own troops, and allowed the slave trade to continue even though he himself had been a slave and vowed to free them. His actions alone would probably dwarf all Earth dictators and tyrants and the deaths they caused for entire centuries. Yet, all he had to do for the Force to forgive him was kill AGAIN, by way of killing Palpatine. Here's the rub though: he didn't kill Palpatine (this is something any EU fan would know). Palpatine did not die in the trenches of the Death Star. Rather, one of his many clone bodies died, while the Force energy of Palpatine survived and only went back to a secret Cloning facility and inhabited another body. The real hero for Palpatines death would be one of his disgruntled cloners who poisoned the bodies for a large amount of money, and was then later killed by the Crimson Guard. So really, Vader accomplished nothing by doing that. Even if it had been the end of Palpatine, the Empire did not ever really lose. It survived through the Imperial Remnant, past the Yuusang Vong war, all the way 125 years after ROTJ to the reign of Darth Krayt, who again took over the Galaxy with it. So what did Vader do to save his soul? He simply saved his son. Somehow, 1 life seemed satisfactory to make up for millions? And still Trillions more in the years after? I don't think it adds up. His one act does not make up for all the other horrific ones he committed. So Vader does not deserve his redemption, but should have gone down like any other Sith.
Scyrone

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for creating this debate. I would also like to clarify that the movies, books, TV shows, and other interactive programs of Star Wars are mostly Canon, UNLESS stated otherwise by George Lucas himself.

My stance is that Darth Vader deserved redemption.

Darth Vader deserved the redemption that he deserved. But it wasn't a widespread redemption as you speak of. It was only accepted among a few people including Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, and possibly a few others out of hundred billions of people. So it was not complete redemption; it was very minimal. You must remember that Darth Sidious was behind most of what Vader did. He twisted his young Jedi mind back on Coruscant back in 10 BBY (I think that is the correct date). Sidious/Palpatine was in charge of everything. And although Vader did not kill Palpatine, he basically shut down the whole Empire, only because of Palpatine's first death. He did a great thing by freeing all those people then instead of delaying it. He basically shut down tyranny, destroyed a thousand year plan, and ended the slaughter of what could be, in the future, billions of more people.

Also, he had some importance in him (Vader). He was a Jedi turned Sith turned Jedi. He was truly a savior of the Republic. He carried on that title, but in a different form, through his Empire days. A Jedi was valued in both Republic and Empire. I know that his Jedi-ness about him made him a redeemable person because a Jedi was worth the conversion from the dark side.

I have one or two more arguments but I am saving them for the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

On Sideous and the Empire - Vader still had a choice at many differing intervals to kill Palpatine. On Special time we need to remember is the first and potentially most important time he could have done so in Revenge of the Sith. Master Windu had Palpatine in his grasps, and all the acts of the Empire could have instantly be stopped. Anakin at that time had full knowledge of who Palpatine really was, what he was capable of doing, and to a point what he had done. Palpatine's manipulation is not a factor, since Anakin always had a choice, something Sideous knew full well. Anakin could have assisted Windu and ended Palpatine, but chose to kill the Jedi rather than the Sith. Instead, he delayed the deed he should have done for years until he felt pity for his son. He didn't even kill Palpatine for realization of what he'd done throughout the Galaxy, but for selfish reasons AGAIN! Had it been any other person, Palpatine would have electrocuted the victim, and Vader would have stood there and watched, as he probably had done hundreds of time's before. But even when he killed Palpatine, it wasn't him who had won the Battle of Endor but the Rebels. Han and Liea had destroyed the shield Generator. Lando had already started flying into the Death Star. It would have blown up either way regardless of Palpatines 'death' in a trench or not. The Empire had lost the Executor, the Death Star, and may Star Destroyers, not to mention the personnel on those craft and planet side on Endor. They were crippled anyway. Even if Palpatine had made it off it would have been difficult to pick up the pieces from such a major defeat. All the events taking place afterwards would still occur. The Eclipse would still be constructed, and the Empire would still have survived. So still, Vader's actions did nothing to stop the further and current strife of the Galaxy. In fact, he had the possibility of stopping it all years before, but didn't, making the case against him even worse! The Jedi would have lived if Palpatine had died in his office, as Order 66 wasn't instigated until after Anakin saved him. The Republic was beating the Confederacy (I say begrudgingly), and was overall close to winning the war for the Republic. But Anakin ruined all of that. It wasn't Palpatine who made the Empire, but Vader. He's even more responsible for his actions, which brings me to your next point.

On Jedi - Once Anakin swore allegiance to Sideous and became Darth Vader he lost his Jedi-hood. He was now a Sith. He was one of the 10 Betrayers, including Dooku, Exar-Kun, and others. He had no more right to re-become a Jedi than any of them did. He would have been banished from the Jedi Order and sentenced to exile or prison even if he had repented under normal circumstances. He also was not the savior of the Republic, but its destroyer. Like I said above, he is the true forger of the Empire. It was never the same after Palpatine took it over. When the New Republic began it never really regained all the prestige it had once had as the New Republic, and in the end just became the Empire again 125 years later. Vader is responsible for all of that. For him to have truly been able to redeem himself from all that he would have needed to do something that would definitely restore the Republic and Jedi Order, and only the Force knows what that could have been. His redeeming action accomplished neither of these things, and could be argued that he made it worse. He did 1 good thing, but that came no where close to making up for the trillions of horrors he caused. the Force still should not have accepted him.
Scyrone

Con

"Vader still had a choice at many differing intervals to kill Palpatine."

Oh yes, he definitely did. And he did not go through with it. BUT it was because of the little bit of light side inside of him. Luke mentioned it a multiple of times in Return of the Jedi. Even Vader himself said that he MUST obey his master (Sidious/Palpatine). That quote declares that even if Vader did want to reject Sidious and acquire his lightsidedness back, he was forced to stay by his Master's side. There are very few Sith/Krath that return to the light side. It was the way Vader had accepted, although he did not fully deny the light side was completely destroyed in him. That is how he came to be redempted.

"he could have done so in Revenge of the Sith. Master Windu had Palpatine in his grasps, and all the acts of the Empire could have instantly be stopped. Anakin at that time had full knowledge of who Palpatine really was, what he was capable of doing, and to a point what he had done."

Again, yes, he did do those things. BUT he was misguided. It was Vader who in RotS (Revenge of the Sith for those non-Star Wars people) said, "I will bring peace and security to my new Empire." He thought that that was what Palpatine had wanted, peace and security. He also had thought that the Jedi were a threat to that peace. Do not underestimate Sidious, he was an incredibly powerful manipulator. He had his grasp on Anakin and turned him into Vader. He convinced almost the whole Republic that what he was doing was right and that the Jedi were a threat to his peace. Anakin was also in love, even when he was Vader. And when Anakin saw the visions of Padme' dying, and the Jedi did nothing to help (NOTE: The Jedi did not do anything mostly because they did not know, and it was against the rules of the Jedi to be married unless approved by the Council, so even if they knew, they would do nothing), and Sidious had offered hope to Anakin, which no one else did. If you were going to die and you had no one to turn to to help and one person came up to you and said, "I know how you can live"; would you reject that person? Definitely not. Anakin was acting under what he thought would bring him the greatest happiness. When he lost Padme' he even moaned the famous "NOOOOOO!" line.

"since Anakin always had a choice"

Same as the above two. Yes he did have a choice. He chose to, according to himself, save Padme', create a new Empire with peace and security, and go with Palpatine, because he thought Palpatine would bring him the hope he was looking for.

"He didn't even kill Palpatine for realization of what he'd done throughout the Galaxy"

Because he never knew he had a son or daughter, and because Padme' had died. All the things he cared about and all the sacrifices he made to keep them had disappeared. Why have any reason to care about life then?

"as he probably had done hundreds of time's before"

This is not fact. It is not known. Barely anyone of importance even was allowed in the same room as Palpatine.

"it wasn't him who had won the Battle of Endor but the Rebels"

Again, not many people had thought of him as redempted. Also, if Vader and Palpatine had both survived I am sure that the ranks would be more complete. The Imperials lost two of their most important leaders. They could do nothing. Also, according to you the Empire hadn't even been defeated. Also, it was more about the Prophecy of the Chosen One than the Battle of Endor. Vader fulfilled the Prophecy and destroyed the Sith. Not forever, but Palpatine never claimed to be Sith when he returned.

"So still, Vader's actions did nothing to stop the further and current strife of the Galaxy."

Again, he was not redeemed from his atrocities, he was redeemed because he fulfilled the Prophecy.

You also have to remember Vader was one of the best pilots of his time. If he had survived I am sure he would've been sent into battle. I am sure he and Palpatine would have escaped. And if you think the odds are against them think again. The Rebels, with a fleet of a few frigates, a lot of fighters, and a few cruisers, wrecked havoc on the Empire. How unrealistic is that? And a bunch of "teddy bears" who threw stones at soldiers won over an entire army of stormtroopers? Unrealistic. Again, you cannot assume that the exact events would have happened the same way without the death of the Emperor and without the death of Vader.

"The Jedi would have lived if Palpatine had died in his office"

They did live. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Naat Raeth, Echuu Shen Jon, and other random Jedi lived. And Luke formed the Jedi Order back again.

"He had no more right to re-become a Jedi than any of them did."

He was, is, and always will be the Chosen One (the one who will bring balance to the force). He was a special Jedi. More special than any of the other Jedi.

He was redeemed by the Jedi because he fulfilled the Prophecy of the Chosen One. He did commit bad acts, but that was not part of his redemption. He was redeemed from the Sith. And yes, he destroyed the Sith. Then some random Dark Jedi goes to find a random Sith holocron and uses it. Ulic-Qel Droma was thought to destroy the Jedi. Revan and the Exile were thought to have destroyed the Sith. And they did. One thing you are missing is you are looking from a complete Jedi point of view. In a neutral POV, he fulfilled his Prophecy. Vader brought balance to the force. Vader did what was part of his destiny. And he was redeemed for it, which not only did he deserve, but that was part of his destiny too. He brought balance tot he force by destroying the Jedi, then destroying the Sith.
Debate Round No. 2
Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

On Palpatine: His little bit of light stopped him from killing the Sith? How does that make sense? Vader did not HAVE to follow Palpatine. If he did then how would you explain Vader being able to 'kill' the Emperor? He chose to. He knew full well what he was doing and why. While there may not be specific references, or at least, none I know of yet, its very probable Vader sat in on Palpatine torturing sentients. It is known that Vader tortured many, and Palpatine sat in on those sessions. So both Vader and Sideous where aware that what they were doing was harmful. Yes, Palpatine was a good manipulator. He manipulated Dooku, the Republic, and the Confederacy, but all of them lacked something that Vader did not: the whole story. Palpatine used Dooku to get Anakin, he told the Republic that the Jedi had scared him when it was his own powers, he told the Confederacy that he would lead them to victory. None of these where his actual intentions. But getting Vader, killing the Jedi, and transforming the Republic were his main goals. Goals that Vader was in on 100%. There was no deception with Vader. I expect that if Anakin hadn't killed Padme he would have done all within his power to save her, but because she died he thought it just as well. Which brings me to my next point.

On Good Intentions: It doesn't matter whether he thought what he was doing was right, but what he did. He may have thought killing the Jedi order would save Padme. He may have thought killing in cold blood would establish peace. He may have thought that turning towards the dark side, something he was taught his ENTIRE LIFE was bad, could be used for the greater good. But None of these reasons are satisfactory excuses for what he DID. The Jedi order died to save 1 girl who ended up being murdered by Vader. Destroying the Jedi and Confederacy only caused more problems galaxy wide. And he only continued to use the dark side for the only purpose it has ever served, being torture and death. He did the wrong things for the wrong reasons. Bad in every respect.

On Padme: Even if his intention to save Padme was good, she should not have been a factor at all. A true Jedi is selfless, a servant only to the force and nothing else. By loving and marring her he broke his ties to the Jedi Order even before the Clone Wars, just no one recognized it. He did not get special permission to mate because humans do not need it. But for dying species, like Ki-Adi-Mundi's kind (Cerean) it was allowed to continue the species. If Anakin had been a real Jedi, he would have heeded Yoda's words and let her die and become one with the Force, the Highest honor anyone could hope for.

On The Chosen one: Kenobi made a very point about the prophecy of the chosen one. It never says that he has to be a Jedi. All it says is that the Chosen one will bring balance to the Force. If he was the chosen one (and he was, as Quoted from Lucas) he did not achieve the prophecy as a Jedi, but a full fledged Sith. Killing Palpatine did not make him a Jedi, it only meant he carried out his part. It could even be said that he did not fulfill the prophecy at all, seeing as how Palpatine, the Sith order, and Empire lived on.

On The Empire's Defeat: Yes, the Empire was not destroyed. If it will be, then it will be Cade Skywalker, not Anakin or Luke, who does it. If Vader had survived he would have continued his reign of evil, as you said, which still would bring him no closer to the light.

In Conclusion, all of Vader's actions, after his swearing to be a Sith, were those of a Sith. The prophecy never stated that he had to be a Jedi, and he was not. Nor should his futil action that in reality did NOTHING be considered a redeeming one. He lived as Sith and should have died as Sith. He committed to many acts of hate (torture and murder being the most extreme and frequent) for too long for one act of throwing a clone body into a pit to save him. Vader, like any other Sith, did not deserve redemption.

I'll remind the voters that this is a 'what if' scenario. The fact that Vader was redeemed is not a factor in your voting, but whether Scyrone or myself proved that he should or should not have been, respectively.
This was rather fun, and I intend to continue these. But know that most if not all of them will contain facts taken from the EU, so just movie knowledge will not suffice. Darth_Grievous_42 out.
Scyrone

Con

Scyrone forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Adam2 3 years ago
Adam2
I don't think Vader saved his son to save his soul. Vader still loved his son. I think Vader still had good in him. He was corrupted but he redeemed himself by saving Luke
Posted by dmoore 9 years ago
dmoore
Noe this a humorous entertaing debate thanks guys and good debate
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Great debate guys. I'm in agreement with Scyrone's comment below - I'll be happy to debate pretty much anything Star Wars.

Britt
Posted by Scyrone 9 years ago
Scyrone
I love Star Wars debates, and I think this debate was a good idea.

If ya have any others Grievous, then post 'em, and depending on how I view them, I will accept them.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 9 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
To which I would then point out that all the information I have given is canon, and specifically approved by George Lucas. They are such major events in the Star Wars Universe that the writers who continued it had to get approval for the idea before even starting on the books/graphic novels. Both the Official Star Wars website and Wookiepedia accept all the events I have mentioned as canon. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
I believe you're overlooking the effect of Vader actions as it was an effect of great importance (purposely vague statement). Nevertheless, I'd probably argue that the EU isn't canon if I were your opponent. I'd also bring up examples to show its lack of legitimacy to the canon universe.

I may take this up within a week as I'd hate to see you paired up with someone who doesn't know jack about the topic.
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