The Instigator
lr4n6champion
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
Im_always_right
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

Darth Vader was framed

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/31/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,564 times Debate No: 4859
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (43)
Votes (6)

 

lr4n6champion

Pro

When we think of big bad villains, a few names come to our minds. The Joker...Lex Luthor...heartburn... and Darth Vader.

Well that last name should not be on the list. I am not talking about heartburn. Darth Vader, the man behind the black plastic mask, was framed. Plain and simple.

This is clear: We all think Vader was so bad and that he killed little younglins, tried to kill LUke, and that hoo haa, but this is not the fact. What it really happened: he was possesed.

By the emperor. The emperor was a master of the force and needed someone to control, so he picked Anakin. Since Anakin had a kid on the way, the emperor hoped to make another apprentice. (Since Jedi don't marry, Anakin was an unusually lucky catch). So as it went, the emperor possesed Anakin... made him kill Mace Windu, fight Obi Wan... and the rest. Of course when the emperor was shocking Luke, his power was temporarily weakened in Vader. (In the 3rd movie, when the emperor shocks Windu and such, it is clear he loses control over Anakin, since Anakin starts repenting killing Windu.

In this way... anakin overcomes when the emperor tries to shock LUke, kills the emperor... and then has a disco party... THE END
Im_always_right

Con

I would like to say I am not a huge Star Wars fan, but my father is. I have seen every episode, at least 7 times in the order 4,5,6,1,2,3, because I asked what a Wookie is. So I know alot about it.

I would like to say Darth Vador/Anikan was NOT framed, because he had essentially free will to join the dark side. He did have a chid due (although it was twins...), and he saw a vision of his wife dying. That on it's own means he was not supposed to still be a jedi. Yoda CLEARLY states, that "Fear leads to hate hate leads to anger anger leads to suffering. Thus fear leads to the dark side."

I would also like to say he may have been tempted to join the dark side, but this is of coarse due to the fact that he broke the law and fell in love.

===============================================================================

On another note, I would like to say the way he died was unfair, but so was the children's deaths.

I have more, but would like to give my opponent some time to argue the basics
Debate Round No. 1
lr4n6champion

Pro

Anakin was always meant to be a jedi...this was clear from when his medichlorines (jedi's molecules that connect them to the force) were off the chart. It would me a mistake of the entire jedi council to allow such a powerful youth not be trained by the jedi. Yoda might have disagreed with Anakin's training, but it is clear that he wanted power and that if the jedi didn't take him, the dark side may (The emperor can easily sense someone with power)

Plus Anakin wanted the power to free his mom and the slaves (What could be more noble right?) There was no way that Qui-Gon would not train him and therefore he was destined to be Jedi in any case

Now on your topic of free choice...it is clear that Anakin was involved from the emperor from the minute he became a Jedi. Sure he didn't seem very attched in the first movie, when palpatine was just a Senator, but he was surely great friends by the second movie... before he got involved with Padme and had the vision that eventually lead him to the dark side. Not to mention the fact that the emperor had sent Darth Maul early on in the first movie to get OBi-Wan and Qui-gon and stuff and clearly, if the emperor can tell the future (as revealed in episode 6), he surely knew of Anakin right at the beginning before Padme and love was in the picture, so the emperor could have easily (and did) corrupt Anakin through the force. remember Anakin's medichlorines were off the scale.

Now you say that he was tempted by love and because he broke the law, but it is clear that even other Jedi like Obi Wan supported Anakin and that he didn't convert to dark right after marriage.

The visions... they came after Anakin met the emperor so clearly the emperor could have caused them

So there go all of your arguments and you never responded to any of my opening arguments directly, so therefore i must urge an affirmative ballot

It is as clear as the crystals in a jedi's lightsaber...Darth Vader was framed.
Im_always_right

Con

"When we think of big bad villains, a few names come to our minds. The Joker...Lex Luthor...heartburn... and Darth Vader."

not necessarly true some people may think of other fictional villins when they think:
here is a short list of others:
Cruella'de Ville
Darth Maul
Wicked Witch of the West
Venom (from Spider man, since we are thinking of that Doc-oc who was possessed, by mechanical arms and wound up being good, so it is debateable if he should be on the list, sandman, Eddie, the goblin dude I can't remember his name...)
the list could keep going...

"Well that last name should not be on the list. I am not talking about heartburn. Darth Vader, the man behind the black plastic mask, was framed. Plain and simple."

He was not really framed, thus that arguement is void and so is the topic.

"Well that last name should not be on the list. I am not talking about heartburn. Darth Vader, the man behind the black plastic mask, was framed. Plain and simple."

Yes he killed innocent people to save the lives of four people (well he thought it was three...)

"By the emperor. The emperor was a master of the force and needed someone to control, so he picked Anakin. Since Anakin had a kid on the way, the emperor hoped to make another apprentice. (Since Jedi don't marry, Anakin was an unusually lucky catch). So as it went, the emperor possesed Anakin... made him kill Mace Windu, fight Obi Wan... and the rest. Of course when the emperor was shocking Luke, his power was temporarily weakened in Vader. (In the 3rd movie, when the emperor shocks Windu and such, it is clear he loses control over Anakin, since Anakin starts repenting killing Windu."

es he needed an apprentice, and chose Luke. He even made the dark side sound good to Luke, saying that the jedi were weak and the dark side had all kinds of power. The only reason he was a lucky catch to the dark side is because he had broken the jedi law, and had married. Yoda had made it clear that that was dangerous, but he refused to follow thus was destined to join the dark side.

"In this way... anakin overcomes when the emperor tries to shock LUke, kills the emperor... and then has a disco party... THE END"

Yes, and that just proves my point, Anakin could have resisted at any time.

now for your recent arguements:

"Anakin was always meant to be a jedi...this was clear from when his medichlorines (jedi's molecules that connect them to the force) were off the chart. It would me a mistake of the entire jedi council to allow such a powerful youth not be trained by the jedi. Yoda might have disagreed with Anakin's training, but it is clear that he wanted power and that if the jedi didn't take him, the dark side may (The emperor can easily sense someone with power)"

No he was ment to use the force, not neccessarily a jedi. His medichlorines were off the chart, and yes it would be a mistake for the jedi council to not train him, but after seeing the dark in him they should have killed him, before, he became such a great threat.

"Plus Anakin wanted the power to free his mom and the slaves (What could be more noble right?) There was no way that Qui-Gon would not train him and therefore he was destined to be Jedi in any case"

Yes he wanted to free the slaves, but when he joined the dark side he was obsessed with power.

"Now on your topic of free choice...it is clear that Anakin was involved from the emperor from the minute he became a Jedi. Sure he didn't seem very attched in the first movie, when palpatine was just a Senator, but he was surely great friends by the second movie... before he got involved with Padme and had the vision that eventually lead him to the dark side. Not to mention the fact that the emperor had sent Darth Maul early on in the first movie to get OBi-Wan and Qui-gon and stuff and clearly, if the emperor can tell the future (as revealed in episode 6), he surely knew of Anakin right at the beginning before Padme and love was in the picture, so the emperor could have easily (and did) corrupt Anakin through the force. remember Anakin's medichlorines were off the scale."

Yes, the vision would not have lead him to the dark side had he not have any visions. If he had not married he would not have had a vision. They may have gotten him through the force, but that was only because he was power hungry, which always leads to to darkness.

"Now you say that he was tempted by love and because he broke the law, but it is clear that even other Jedi like Obi Wan supported Anakin and that he didn't convert to dark right after marriage."

Not right after marriage, but it was after he was married, and the marriage played the biggest role, because his vision was of his wife dying, thus if he had not married, he probably would not have joined the dark side.

"The visions... they came after Anakin met the emperor so clearly the emperor could have caused them"

I concede that is true, however, had he not cared for her, it would not have been so powerful over him.

"So there go all of your arguments and you never responded to any of my opening arguments directly, so therefore i must urge an affirmative ballot"

Ahh, I have just argued all points possible to argue, thus Darth vader was not framed.

"It is as clear as the crystals in a jedi's lightsaber...Darth Vader was framed."

once again framed is not an accurate word.
Debate Round No. 2
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"I am not agreeing to a law against murder, thus your hypathetical government is unjust. "

Doesn't matter, because it's their lives in question. It's whether the person being murdered agrees to the law against it that counts :D.
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
well, I agree to a law against murder, but annoying three year olds, deserve it, thus I do not agree that I should be held acountable to a law against murdering three year olds, and since I do not agree with the law, I do not believe the law should aply to me. LoL :P
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
I am not agreeing to a law against murder, thus your hypathetical government is unjust. LOL... I'll take up the position though...I may bhave to practice first....
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"

Maybe I'll go to USAJR where murder is legal...."

Sorry, no it's not, since it's my hypothetical country lol. But we can hire you as an executioner if you like, considering how we won't have any prisons, and there'll probably be criminals somewhere.

Besides I have a plan to make New America on the site of Old America, and coopt the current government while doing it, all the while abolishing taxes and stuff, so this is kind of moot, unless someone else wants to try it. My plan requires too much effort for a side project like an island nation lol
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
yep CiRrO, that is basically what he is trying to say, at least that's what it sounded like to me.

LOL, I can't believe I'm winning...no reason to change that, i just thought that I would lose 25-1...well that's a relief.
Posted by CiRrO 9 years ago
CiRrO
Ok, this debate is like saying that Revan possessed Malak. Obviously, that isn't true, since Malak betrayed Revan. >.> B****
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
I didn't realize it was only a 2 round debate, in that case:

I urge all voters to vote based on quality of the debate, not on who the [dis]agree with.
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
I swear I will murder my 3 year old brother, this is the fourth time, he got on the comp while I was doing laundry, forcing me to start all over again.

Maybe I'll go to USAJR where murder is legal....
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
LOL Ragnar, I was wondering if you would know what I meant by USAJR, Xera said it can't be "Little America", unless you want it to be a truck stop. Maybe New America lol.

Okay about the invading, if you get enough people to join...it would be "New America" VS. "Old America"....who knows, maybe if you decide some kind of governing system is needed, you could be the George Washington, of "New America". LoL.
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
"If you really feel it is tyrany, start you own country,"

We have! Zero-sama has created the United Federation of Nations :D
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by lr4n6champion 9 years ago
lr4n6champion
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Vote Placed by dudedabbles 9 years ago
dudedabbles
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Vote Placed by padfo0t 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Katie01 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Xera 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Im_always_right 9 years ago
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