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Day of Atonement = Pre-Advent Judgment

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 161 times Debate No: 91659
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I actually don't have much more to say here beyond what I've said in previous conversations so I will respond more once you make your statement.

Again, our understanding begins with Arminianism and thus we conclude believers are judged. Second, because of our doctrine of soul sleep, and our understanding of what happens at Christ's second coming, we conclude that this judgment takes place collectively, shortly prior to the second coming.

With this understanding in mind we approach the Old Testament sanctuary service and determine that the best interpretation of the Day of Atonement is that it represents this Pre-Advent Judgment.

Throughout the year, individual Hebrews would come to the sanctuary whenever they sinned and would offer a sacrifice. They would confess their sin on the head of the lamb and walk away forgiven. But the story would not end there.

The priest would either eat the meat of the sacrifice and thus 'bare the iniquity' or he would collect the blood of the victim and sprinkle it on the curtain within the Holy Place. This would continue every day of the year until the day of Atonement.

On the day of atonement, the priest would make an atonement for the sanctuary itself and cleanse it of the uncleanness of the children of Israel because of their transgression. Their sins would then be confessed on the head of the scapegoat which would then be sent into the wilderness.

After this the Israelites celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles.

Now typically, Christians apply all this imagery to the cross. However, the cross was just as clearly symbolized by the simple altar that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would built to offer sacrifice and it doesn't seem like such an elaborate symbolic service would be needed. Moreover, the feasts themselves are applied to the cross although the Passover is the only one that really fits while other feasts like the Passover fit better elsewhere.

Adventists see this service as having a broader application. Whenever someone sinned, they brought a sacrifice and were forgiven: salvation by grace through faith. But, once saved does not mean always saved and therefore, a judgment must take place to determine who the faithful are. This happens on the day of Atonement. Here God goes through and demonstrates why some believers are saved and some lost and in doing so He demonstrates His justice (cleanses his sanctuary/tribunal of reproach brought by Satan's accusations). Satan's mouth is shut and he is shown to be the one at fault for sin. He carries the ultimate blame for all the atrocities ever committed by the people he has tempted (sins confessed on the head of the scape goat).

He is then sent into the wilderness (bound in chains for 1000 years - Rev. 20) while the saints keep the feast of tabernacles - are taken to their mansions in heaven that Jesus went to prepare for them.

As mentioned earlier, the feasts are also divided into spring and fall (harvest) festivals representing Christ's first coming (spring) and His second coming (fall). The harvest is used repeatedly throughout the new testament to symbolize Christ's coming.


Jesus Christ already fulfilled the Day of Atonement rituals of Leviticus 16, and SDA claims concerning its fulfillment in 1844 are unbiblical.

2 Corinthians 5:10 says "we must all STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST." Now, this judgment of the righteous could not take place in 1844, nor could it be going on right now as SDAs claim in their theology, because this Scripture demands that we will actually be alive and present STANDING BEFORE Jesus on that day. No one was resurrected in 1844 to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and according to SDA theology, there is no soul or spirit that survives the death of the body so that they could have made this appearance before him in spirit. (Now, I know the Bible does teach that though the body dies the soul will not in Matthew 10:28, and life after death is found in Many passages such as Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10; 2 Corinthians 5:6-9, etc) But that's another issue. Given their soul sleep theology, and lack of resurrection of people in 1844, I can confidently say that the judgment they believe is going on right now without the persons being judged being present is not biblical, and thus we should not believe their claims that the unbiblical date 1844 and claimed events they think took place in heaven at that time, are the judgment of God on the believers.

In fact, they claim that the Day of Atonement in 1844 fell on Oct 22, but this is a false distortion of history to make it seem like their 1844 sanctuary cleansing fulfilled Leviticus 16. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1939, vol. 2, lists holidays, feasts and fasts as follows for September:

September (Tishri): Started on September 14, 1844
"1 Rosh Hashanah"New Year (September 14, 1844)
"2 Second Day of Rosh Hashanah (September 15, 1844)
"10 Yom Kippur"Day of Atonement (September 24, 1844"starting the evening of September 23, 1844)

Even the Karite Jews claim Sep 23 as the correct date in 1844.
When a doctrine is true you don't need to tell lies or distort the truth in order to teach it. This should make us raise some eyebrows.

In Leviticus 16 there are two goats, one for the Lord as a sacrifice and one as a scapegoat. Leviticus 16 is dealing with the Day of Atonement, and one this day, the Lord's goat is sacrificed. So, whenever we see this part fulfilled, we know that the Day of Atonement ritual is being fulfilled. Jesus was the Lord's goat who was sacrificed on the cross in the first century CE, thus, the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 was already in process at the cross 2000 years ago, showing that the anti-typical Day of Atonement began then and not in 1844 as SDAs claim. Did a pre-advent judgment begin at the cross? No! This proves that the Day of Atonement does not represent a pre-advent judgment.

Leviticus 16:2 says "The Lord said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover." This means that God's presence was in the Most Holy place. This is also seen in Leviticus 16:13; Exodus 25:21, 22; 30:6, Numbers 7:89, and a comparison of Exodus 25:16-22 with Psalm 80:1; 2 Samuel 6:2; 2 Kings 19:25 and Isaiah 37:16. So the Day of Atonement is when the priest would enter into Gods presence on our behalf. Jesus entered into God's presence when He ascended in the first century (Heb 9:24), proving two thing: (1) the Day of Atonement ritual of entering God's presence was fulfilled at the ascension, and (2) in order to do so He had to enter what was represented by the Most Holy. The plain testimony of Scripture is that Christ sat at God's right hand at the ascension (Act 2:30-36; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; 1 Pet 3:21-22; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 9:12; 10:12, 19; 12:2; Rev 3:21) So Christ entered God's presence in the Most Holy 2000 years ago when He ascended, not in 1844 as Adventists claim. They false put Jesus in some other room for 1800 years to have him enter the Most Holy in 1844. This shows they don't understand how the OT types were fulfilled. It also shows that the antitypical Day of Atonement was already happening during the ascension, not in 1844 as SDAs claim. Did a pre-advent judgment begin when Jesus entered God's presence? No! Even SDAs don't think so, which shows that the atonement in Leviticus 16 does not represent a pre-advent judgment in 1844. Jesus fulfilled Leviticus 16 long before any events of 1844.

To be acceptable to God a sacrifice must be perfect without blemish (Leviticus 22:20-21). To sacrifice anything other than this is considered evil (Malachi 1:8), and unacceptable (Leviticus 22:20; 22:25), an abomination to God (Deuteronomy 17:1), and we are commanded not to do it (Leviticus 22:22; Deuteronomy 15:21). It follows that both of the two goats, the one to be sacrificed and the scapegoat, had to be perfect and without blemish, because lots were cast to see which one would fulfil which role (Leviticus 16:8). If either goat were not perfect, and the lot fell on him to be sacrificed, it would have been unacceptable to God. Therefore the scapegoat had to be perfect and could not be typified by Satan who is imperfect because of his sin, but only by Christ who sacrificed himself without spot or blemish. (Heb 9:14; 1 Pet 1:18-19) This refutes the SDA claim that the scapegoat is the Devil.

Just as the iniquities of the children of Israel were put on the scapegoat by the high priest (Leviticus 16:21), so God laid on Christ "the iniquities of us all." (Isaiah 53:6). This was fulfilled 2000 years ago without a pre-advent judgment.

Just as the scapegoat had to "bear upon him" (Leviticus 16:22) all the iniquities of the children of Israel, so "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;" (Hebrews 9:28), "he bore the sin of many," (Isaiah 53:11), and he "bore our sins in his own body on the tree," (1 Peter 2:24). Where does the scripture say that Satan ever bore our sins? Nowhere, but Jesus bore them, becoming our scapegoat 2000 years ago without the pre-advent judgment which my opponent claims takes place shortly before the coming of Christ.

Just as the scapegoat took the sins of the children of Israel away into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:21-22), so it is "Jesus ... who takes away the sins of the whole world." (John 1:29), because "he was manifested to take away our sins;" (1 John 3:5), and "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he (the LORD) removed our transgressions from us." (Psalm 103:12). Thus the scapegoat was a type of Christ, and not a type of Satan, who tempts us into sin rather than taking it away.

The Scapegoat was sent out of the Israelite camp, and likewise, Jesus suffered outside the city: "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore." (Heb. 13:12,13)

Just as an atonement was made for the children of Israel with the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:10), so God made an atonement for us with Christ. Romans 5:11 says we have already received the atonement (KJV) or reconciliation. Clearly, the atonement of Leviticus 16 was fulfilled by the time Paul wrote Romans 5:11, and thus cannot represent a pre-advent judgment in 1844.

Just as the scapegoat was not bearing his own sins, but the sins of others (Leviticus 16:21), so Christ was not bearing his own sins (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5), but our sins (Isaiah 53:5-6; 1 Peter 2:24). Where did the scripture say that Satan will bear our sins?

My opponent said: "a judgment must take place to determine who the faithful are. This happens on the day of Atonement." Nowhere does Leviticus 16 make any separation during the cleansing of the sanctuary between who are the faithful and who are not! Also, they have given the judgment the wrong purpose. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says the judgment of the believers is to determine what their "reward" will be, not to determine who are faithful (saved). The identity of the saved has already been decided. Look at the list in Hebrews 11. God has made it clear than Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, David and so on are safe, righteous, at one with God, that they made it. Will God now have to open records of their lives to determine all over again if these men are righteous?

Their prophetess Ellen G. White says, "Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" (The Great Controversy, p. 425). Needless to say, all of this contradicts the New Testament gospel of grace. The Bible teaches that believers never will enter a judgment for their salvation (John 5:24) and that there is no condemnation for a believer (Romans 8:1). The Bible teaches that when we confess our sins, they do not remain anywhere before God, they are forgiven and blotted out, wiped away! (See 1 John 1:8-9; Isaiah 43:25 and 44:22). The Bible teaches that Jesus will never stop being a believer"s mediator (Hebrews 7:25). We stand before God, not by any merit of our own or because of any works we have done (Titus 3:5, Romans 3:28, Ephesians 2:8-9).

There much more to say, but let me just ask this: if the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 represents a pre-advent judgment beginning in 1844, then how do you explain that the Lord's goat is sacrificed and the scapegoat sent away during the Day of Atonement ritual? Both are aspects of the Day of Atonement, thus, to be consistent with the type, your antitype would need Christ to die and the scapegoat to be sent away between 1844 and the coming of Christ; otherwise. Clearly this isn't what happened, showing your understanding of Leviticus 16 to be in error.

I'll pause here for now.
Debate Round No. 1


MikeManea forfeited this round.


Jesus is the true tabernacle.

John 1:14 tells us that "the Word became flesh and dwelt [Gk. `3;_4;_1;_7;a2;`9;] among us," and the Greek translation of "tent of meeting" uses a slightly different form of this same term `3;_4;_1;_7;P52; _6;^5;`1;`4;`5;`1;P55;_9;`5; (Ex. 33:7). In other words, when Jesus became the God-man he "tabernacled" among us. (And of course Jesus spoke about "the temple of his body" [John 2:19, 21], and Paul taught that because we are united to the risen Messiah "we are the temple of the living God" [2 Cor. 6:16].) So the temple in Leviticus 16 represents Jesus and by extension all of us. The OT tabernacle was the temple (house) of God, and the light in the Most Holy represented God's presence in the sanctuary. (Lev 16:2) Even SDA literature admits that the Most Holy represented the place of God's own dwelling. But God does not dwell in temples made with hand today (Acts 17:24). First, he tabernacles in the temple of Jesus' body, which was body (temple) specially prepared without hands for God to inhabit. (Heb 10:5; John 1:1, 14) Secondly, by extension, because we believers are the body of Christ, God indwells the believers. We are now the temple of the living God.

Thus, the sin of Israel being upon the OT sanctuary represents our sins being placed on Jesus, and the cleansing of that sanctuary represents Jesus after paying the price for our sins and being exalted by God, having removed that sin far away, not only from himself, but from all of us who are part of his body. His victory over sin has thus become our victory. This cleansing comes, not only at the cross, but every time we come to God in repentance. God promises to forgive, and remember our sins no more (Heb 8:12), in effect, removing sin from his sanctuary - us. If he doesn't remember them anymore as he says in Hebrews 8:12, they cannot be held against us in an 1844 judgment, otherwise God wasn't being sincere when he promised in Hebrews 8:12 "and their sin I will remember no more."

Jesus" body is the curtain ripped in two that brings us to the holy presence of God:
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh. . . ." (Heb. 10:19-20). (See also Matthew 27:51: "the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom." This means Jesus' body that was ripped open by the thons in his head, the nails in his hands and feet and spear in his side.) So the curtain in the OT tabernacle didn't represent another curtain in a literal building in heaven, but Jesus' body. This ought to say something to us about the relationship between type an antitype.

Jesus is the great high priest over the house of God:
". . . and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:21-22)

Jesus is the full and final sacrifice:
"Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29).

". . . We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . . Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins . . . By a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." (Heb. 10:10, 12, 14)

So Jesus has already fulfilled the meaning of the temple, the cleansing of the temple, the sacrifice of the goat, the scape goat, the curtain, the priest, all of it. All of Leviticus 16 met its reality in Jesus 2000 years ago, all of which took place without an investigative judgment. In fact, none of the references Hebrews 9 makes back to Leviticus 16 say anything at all about an investigative judgment.

I reject the claim that Jesus did not fulfill the feast of tabernacles, also known as the festival of booths. Yes, I am not denying that many OT types can have additional fulfillments in the future; after all, though Jesus is Abraham's seed, so are his followers who came later, also fulfilling the role of Abraham's seed. (Gal 3:16, 29) But here is how Jesus initially fulfills the Feast of Tabernacles (Booths)

TIME OF APPEARANCE: For one thing, since we know that Christ's ministry was 3-1/2 years, it would represent the specific month or time of the year the messiah must appear to begin his ministry. Why do we know this? Because the Passover festival in the spring celebrates the time of his sacrifice. It is six months apart from the Festival of Booths. The Passover Festival occurs during the first month of the year, the Festival of Booths the seventh month. So they bookend the 3-1/2 years of Jesus' ministry. Jesus thus begins his ministry during the Festival of Booths and ends it during Passover week.

WHY BOOTHS OUTSIDE THE HOUSE? Obviously, the formal house would represent the temple, the formal worship arrangement for the Jews. Jesus being born in a booth, which is a makeshift shelter for the animals (the stable), confirms that he would not be part of the formal temple arrangement. That is, the Christ wouldn't say be the current high priest who becomes the messiah or anything. Instead, he would do his things off to the side, somewhat unofficially. Thus God would provide the messiah but would not incorporate him through the formal system. Indeed, Christ came out of Judah, not from the priestly tribe of Levi.

The Gospels record that our Lord Jesus not only celebrated the festival, but He took traditional elements of the celebration and applied them to His own life and mission. We find this particularly in John 7 and 8 where Jesus uses two traditional symbols from the Feast of Tabernacles celebration, water and light, to help the people understand who He is and what He offers. The ceremony was to thank God for His bounty and to ask Him to provide rain for the crops in the coming year. Today, many people take water for granted. We simply turn the tap and voil"water! Not so in the Middle East during the first century. Water was often scarce. The people were very much aware of their dependence on God for the rains that were so vital for the preservation of life. No wonder the prophets came to see rain as a symbol of salvation and the work of God's Holy Spirit:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean" (Ezekiel 36:25).

No wonder then that Jesus stood in the Temple on this great day of the feast and cried out:

If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water (John 7:37-38).

The Apostle John commented on this speech in verse 39.

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

As the rain falls to nourish the crops, so the Holy Spirit falls upon those who have identified with Jesus in His death and resurrection. It is that Spirit that refreshes us, and causes us to grow in grace and in faith. It is that Spirit that allows us to experience Immanuel, God with us.

Jesus' promise to give living water, prompted even greater discussion and debate during the last day of the festival of Sukkot. The leaders grew angry because the Temple guards refused their order to arrest Jesus. Even when one of their own, Nicodemus, came to Jesus' defense, they still dismissed His claims saying, "A prophet does not come out of Galilee" (verse 52). Apparently, those leaders had forgotten about Isaiah chapter 9:

There will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future He will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan. The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; of those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned (Isaiah 9:1-2).

And that brings us to the second Sukkot symbol that Jesus used to point to Himself as the fulfillment of Scripture. God had indeed promised that a great light would shine out of Galilee. Jesus reminded His critics of that powerful and prophetic claim, by claiming to be the Light.

You see, at the end of the first day of the Feast, the Temple was gloriously illuminated. According to the Mishnah (part of the oral tradition of the rabbis), gigantic candelabras stood within the court of the women. Each of the four golden candelabras is said to have been 50 cubits high. A cubit is somewhere between 18 and 22 inches, so we're talking about candelabras that were about 75 feet tall! Each candelabra had four branches, and at the top of every branch there was a large bowl. Four young men bearing 10 gallon pitchers of oil would climb ladders to fill the four golden bowls on each candelabra. And then the oil in those bowls was ignited.

Picture sixteen beautiful blazes leaping toward the sky from these golden lamps. Remember that the Temple was on a hill above the rest of the city, so the glorious glow was a sight for the entire city to see. In addition to the light, Levitical musicians played their harps, lyres, cymbals and trumpets to make joyful music to the Lord. What a glorious celebration! The light was to remind the people of how God's Shekinah glory had once filled His Temple. But in the person of Jesus, God's glory was once again present in that Temple. And He used that celebration to announce that very fact. He was teaching in the court of women just after the Feast, perhaps standing right next to those magnificent candelabras when He declared to all who were gathered there,

I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life (John 8:12).
Many refused to have their own darkness exposed by that light. But there were those who were drawn to the light, whose hearts burned with the truth of Jesus. Yes, Jesus fulfilled it the feast of tabernacles
Debate Round No. 2


I will respond to each of your paragraphs in order starting from the first round.

1) We do believe that each person appears before God in judgment. Faithful believers appear through their defense attorney (Jesus) during the investigative judgment (IJ) and in person during the millennial judgment. Unfaithful believers also appear in the investigative judgment but their case cannot be defended because they apostatized. They appear in person during the white throne judgment after the millennium.

2, 3, 4) Adventists have no particular attachment to the specific date Oct. 22. For us this is a historical landmark because this is the date the Millerites arrived at. The IJ could have began anywhere between 1843-1844 as there is no way to determine the precise dates from the prophecy.

5) A lamb was sacrificed every day of the year not just on the Day of Atonement. This simply points to the fact that we have to be permanently covered by the blood of Jesus.

6) Adventists believe Jesus entered God's presence at His ascension. The earthly sanctuary service was not an exact representation of the sanctuary in heaven because it could not be. Otherwise:

" there should have been just one sacrifice instead of many

" the ceremonies should have been conducted just once instead of year after year

" the altar should have been a cross

" and, since the high priest represented Christ, he should have offered himself instead of a lamb as the sacrifice, etc., etc.

It is never a good idea to take a model and expect it to reflect the real thing perfectly in every specific.

In the Old Testament, the priests were sinful human beings. As they ministered daily in the Holy Place, they needed a veil to shield them from the Shekinah Glory in the Most Holy place. Jesus, however, doesn"t have that problem; He is holy, undefiled, separate from sinners. As such, He could enter directly into God"s presence and even sit down at His right hand.

That being said, the OT sanctuary still had a Daily Ministry and a Yearly Ministry. This Adventist doctrine is not about moving from one room to another in 1844 but about beginning a new ministry in 1844.

7) Sacrifices had to be perfect because it would have been disrespectful to offer to God the worst of one's flock. Basically, 'this lamb is maimed and unhealthy so we don't want to eat it nor can we sell it so we might as well take it to the sanctuary...'

8-13) Regarding the Scapegoat. Here are three reasons why the scapegoat cannot symbolize Christ:

1) Lots were cast to distinguish between the Lord's goat and the Scapegoat. If the scapegoat represents Christ then this means that lots are cast to distinguish between the Lord's goat and the Lord's goat.

2) The name Azazel used in connection with the scapegoat is a Jewish name for a demon.

3) Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. The scapegoat was not sacrificed and therefore cannot represent Christ.

Thus we conclude that the way the scapegoat bears iniquity is different than the way the Lord's goat bears iniquity. By being killed, the Lord's goat makes an atonement for sin. The scapegoat on the other hand carries only the blame. In other words, after God cleanses the congregation of all their sins, He turns to Satan and punishes him for his active role in tempting them to commit those sins. If it wasn't for Satan, those sins would never have been committed to begin with.

14, 15) Lev. 23:29 states that any unfaithful person is to be cut off so there IS judgment on the Day of Atonement.

Not sure what you mean by the rest of paragraph 14 and part of 15. You said you don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved. When does God separate between the the two types of saved people, those who stay faithful and those who don't?

15) Ellen G White (EGW) - Without a Mediator - What she is referring to in this passage is that today many people hear the call of the gospel but refuse to heed it right away. They sometimes go on for years or decades living for the devil and then finally return and give their lives to Christ. Other people accept Christ early on but then go back out into the world and also spend years in sin before they come back. Yet, none the less, Christ as our mediator is abundant in grace and mercy and pleads with the Father on their behalf. He points to His blood and pleads that God would give them more time. However, while Christ has been doing this intercession work since the fall of Adam, there will come a day when probation has to close. Jesus will return and people will no longer be able to switch sides between Christ and Satan. They will no longer have the time to live for the devil for years or decades like previous generations before they finally repent. This is what she means by standing without a mediator. Not that we are no longer covered by Christ's blood, but that there comes a time when we have to make up our minds whom we will serve and cannot any longer switch sides because there is no more time.

16) If the day of atonement represents the cross then how do you explain all the animal sacrifices that were brought to the temple every day of the year before the day of atonement? Did Jesus die a bunch of times before Calvary? No. Symbols are limited and cannot be an exact representation of the real thing.

----- Next Round----

Here I have just two things to say:

1) I need you to explain to me how everything you said works in light of the fact that you don't believe in OSAS. What happens to true believers that turn away?

2) I don't have a problem with your festival of lights description but maybe you can tell me what the spring festivals represent: Passover, Unleavened bread, First Fruits and Pentecost.


"Faithful believers appear through their defense attorney (Jesus) during the investigative judgment (IJ) and in person during the millennial judgment."

2 Corinthians 5:10 says "we must all appear before" who? Christ. So if Jesus is appearing on our behalf, then you have Jesus appearing before himself! Ridiculous. We will not be judged by the Father, because "the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son." (John 5:22) So Jesus being our defense is not a valid way of us appearing before Christ in judgment. Jesus was not standing before himself in judgment since 1844. The word "we" didn't mean Jesus in 1 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9; it really meant "us" (vs 5), so it's really us believers that will literally stand before Christ in judgment as verse 10 says. So SDA ideas of the judgment are false.

I would also challenge Pro to show me where the Bible says the righteous will be judged during or even after the millennium (1000 years). That's not in the Bible. Being in God's presence is not the same thing as being before the judgment seat of Christ for judgment.

"Unfaithful believers also appear in the investigative judgment but their case cannot be defended because they apostatized. They appear in person during the white throne judgment after the millennium."

So they are judged twice? Also unbiblical; where does the Bible say the unsaved are judged twice? Your error here, is that you keep referring to unsaved people as believers just because they were once saved. If you lose your salvation, you are no longer a believer, period. There is no such thing as an "unsaved believer." Show me that term in the Bible, please.

"Adventists have no particular attachment to the specific date Oct. 22."

The whole church had to study these calculations in their quarterly Great Apocalyptic Prophecies, lesson 5, Daniel 9: The Coming of the Messiah, Apri-June 2002 This unbiblical date is also in number 24 of their 28 fundamental beliefs.

"A lamb was sacrificed every day of the year not just on the Day of Atonement."

That doesn't address my point. Leviticus 16 is dealing with the Day of Atonement, and one this day, the Lord's goat is sacrificed. So, whenever we see this part fulfilled, we know that the Day of Atonement ritual is being fulfilled. Why deny that Jesus already fulfilled the Leviticus 16 Day of Atonement 2000 years ago when we know that that is when he fulfilled the Day of Atonement sacrifice? Yes, a lamb was sacrificed every day, and Jesus fulfilled them all on the cross. Jesus doesn't have to die again and again every day or every year to fulfill each sacrifice at a different time. You seem not to realize that Jesus fulfills many rituals at the same time on the same day. All animal sacrifices pointed to the cross.

"Adventists believe Jesus entered God's presence at His ascension."

And God"s presence was represented by the Most Holy, so Jesus entered the Most Holy at his ascension, not in 1844. This places the fulfillment of the High Priest entering God"s presence on the Day of Atonement at the ascension, not 1844. Disproves Ellen White"s claim that "In 1844 Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary." (The Great Controversy, page 481) SDAs say: ""Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God, to"perform the work of investigative judgment" (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 480). This assumes Jesus was NOT IN GOD"s PRESENCE before he entered God"s presence in 1844 to perform IJ! Not Biblical.

"It is never a good idea to take a model and expect it to reflect the real thing perfectly in every specific."

Agreed, so we shouldn't believe that in heaven the sanctuary has two rooms (a holy separated from a most holy) just because it was so on earth.

"If the scapegoat represents Christ then this means that lots are cast to distinguish between the Lord's goat and the Lord's goat."

Lots were cast to distinguish which goat would represent Christ's death by dying, and which would represent him taking away our sins by taking them out into the wilderness. I gave Scripture which says Jesus carried our sins and removed them far from us, where is the Scripture that says the devil will ever carry them?

"The name Azazel... is a Jewish name for a demon."

No source cited to support this claim from Pro. In Leviticus 16:8 we have "escape" (The Septuagint Bible, "scapegoat" (NKJV), "scapegoat (NIV), "scapegoat" (KJV), "scapegoat" (RSV), "Azazel (or removal)" (The Amplified Bible). The Hebrew term for scapegoat from Strongs is: 5799. 'aza'zel, az-aw-zale'; from H5795 and H235; goat of departure; the scapegoat: - scapegoat.

The Hebrew definition of azazel is "goat of departure." Leviticus 16:8 should then read: "one lot for the LORD and the other for the goat of departure." Because the first goat called "a lot for the Lord," the translators wanted the Hebrew word Azazel, to be a representation of someone. Thus some translators have concluded that Azazel must represent an evil spirit or Satan. Keeping in mind from Leviticus 16:10, that the scapegoat is for making atonement TO GOD because of their sins. This atonement has to be made to God. It would be a sin to make atonement to Satan. Satan cannot remove sin nor would he want to.

Some translators saw that the scapegoat represented Christ. Those that thought the scapegoat represented Satan or an evil spirit did not understand that this goat was a representation of the Living Christ that has removed the sins of God"s people. They failed to see that after the shedding of blood by the first goat the second goat demonstrated the removal of sins. Both goats were representing the completed atonement. Without the shedding of blood there cannot be forgiveness of sins. (Matt 26:28)

"The Greek translators did not regard azazel as a proper name, but connected it with, "a z"zel a verb that does not appear in the Old Testament. The meaning they gave it was "to send away." Hence the full meaning of the Hebrew expression would be "in order to send away." The Latin translation followed this same understanding. The most adequate explanation is to view the term "aza"zel as being composed of two words: the first part, "ez, meaning "goat," and the second part, "azel, meaning "to go away." With recent evidence from the Ugaritic (the language of ancient Canaan from which Hebrew is derived), compound names such as this one are turning up more frequently than what we had expected based on evidence from the Hebrew alone. This is how the rendering "scapegoat" came to be... Originally, however, the King James translators meant "the goat that was led away." Hard Sayings of the Bible by Walter C. Kaiser Jr. Peter H. Davids, F.F. Bruce and Manfred T. Brauch INTER VARSITY PRESS, Downers Grove, Illinois.

Lev 23:29-31 is saying that that day was a Sabbath, so you if you worked on that day (don't deny yourself) you would die, just as you would be put to death just as you were put to death for breaking the weekly Sabbath (Exo 31:14), but Pro doesn't claim the weekly Sabbath represents the day of judgment just because you were killed for working on it. Also, Lev 23 doesn't say you were put to death on that same day either, only that you would be killed at some point for working on that day. Lev 23:29 doesn't not say that people were judged for all their sins on that day. Killing for work on the Sabbath is not the same as judgment for all one's sins.

"Those who are living upon the earth WHEN THE INTERCESSION OF CHRIST SHALL CEASE in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God WITHOUT A MEDIATOR. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling." (Great Controversy, p.369) This say Jesus will one day CEASE TO BE OUT MEDIATOR. Hebrews 7:25 says "He ALWAYS lives to INTERCEDE" for us. I believe the Bible not the SDAs here.

This debate is about whether the Day of Atonement = investigative judgment, not about what is symbolized by every other festival, but I will say based on Colossians 2:16-17 that the "festivals (yearly), new moons (monthly), and Sabbaths (weekly)" mentioned there were all shadows that pointed to Christ. Jesus became our Passover Lamb on the cross, his body was our unleavened bread, free of leaven (sin), and Pentecost means 50th day, that is, the day after the 7th sabbath in the feast of weeks. (Lev 23:15-22) Jesus is the firstfruits wave offering because he was the first to be resurrected to immortal life, and he is the sin offering.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell." (Matt 10:28, NIV) Here Jesus could not have made it more plain the soul is not the body. He CONTRASTED them. In 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul says that absence from the physical body means to be present with the Lord. Some part of you must still exist after your body dies in order for you to be "at home" with him while "away" form the body. Then, in this context of talking about the spirit or soul surviving the death of, being absent from, the body, and having the "heavenly dwelling" (vs 4), he also talks about appearing before the judgment seat of Christ. (vs 10) So every believer appears before Christ, when his spirit goes back to God (Ecc 12:7).

God already knows who is saved and who is lost the moment they die, so there doesn"t need to be a special examination of records to differentiate between these two. If your soul was not saved when you died, you go to the same place where the rich man went in Luke 16:19-31. Any believer who lost his salvation and died in an unsaved state will be judged after the 1000 years in the resurrection of judgment/condemnation. (John 5:28-29)

Out of space.
Debate Round No. 3


1) The bible says that we have an advocate with the Father so no contradiction here.

2) Where does the Bible say the righteous will be judged? Your own text: we must all appear...

3) They are judged more than twice. There are several phases to the judgment. Before the second coming as described in Dan. 7, during the millennium Rev 20 and at the white throne after the millennium.

You can refer to unsaved people any way you want. I just need the terminology to be precise so we don't get confused because we're dealing with 3 groups of people not two. We have (1) those who never get saved, (2) those who get saved and then apostatize and (3) those who get saved and stay saved. There has to be a judgment that separates between groups 2 and 3 because, unlike those who always opposed God, people in group 2 might be indistinguishable from those in group 3 to human eyes. They might look and act just like the saved, go to church, say all the right things etc. Now you already believe there is a judgment that separates these two groups even if you believe this judgment happens only in God's mind. All we're saying is that God doesn't make decisions in secret but does everything openly so that all the parties involved can understand why God sent some people to heaven and some to hell.

4) And I am telling you again that we have no particular attachment to this date other than for its historical value. There is no way to interpret the prophecies with that level of precision so all we're saying is that this date is more plausible than other alternative, not that we are overly committed to it in any way. If someone did a thorough study of the matter and presented to the church compelling evidence that we should change the dater to 23 instead of 22 or whatever, we would.

5) It does address your point. The sanctuary service is not an exact representation of the real thing. And, the symbolism is broader than just pointing to the cross. If all God wanted to do is point to the cross He would have stayed with the simple sacrifices that Abraham offered and would not have created this elaborate symbolic service. Much more is represented through this service. Thus, we have no problem with the sacrifice on the day of atonement pointing back to the cross and with the rest of the service pointing to the investigative judgment and finally with the scapegoat being sent out pointing to Satan in chains during the millennium.

6, 7) We don't believe the heavenly sanctuary has two rooms. Our beliefs say nothing about heavenly architecture. What we believe is that Jesus began the Most Holy Place MINISTRY in 1844 not that He moved from one room to another. When you read adventist literature about Jesus entering the most holy place, it is because the author is using the language of the old testament sanctuary to make a point. But our doctrine has nothing to do with Jesus moving from one place to another or being in and out of God's presence. The only thing we are concerned with is that there is a certain type of ministry that the high priest performed on the day of atonement and we believe that represents the investigative judgment ministry.

8) I'm not gonna spend more time on Azazel. You can read Wikipedia about different ways the word was interpreted historically. Some translated it as you say and some as a demon. In reality, if you interpret the Day of Atonement as pointing to the cross than you are forced to interpret the scapegoat the way you do. If I interpret the DoA the way I do than my view of the scapegoat makes more sense. And, your interpretation of the Sanctuary service is redundant (hundreds of symbols that say the same thing over and over) but you have to go with it because you reject the Investigative judgment ahead of time.

- I already explained the EGW passage about the mediator. No need to go into it again.

- The feast days fit better with my interpretation

- The feast days WERE Sabbaths. They did not fall ON Sabbaths (7th day). They had a specific day of the year which landed on different days of the week each time.


"The bible says that we have an advocate with the Father so no contradiction here."

2 Cor 5:10 "WE must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." We have to present before God for judgment, and just because we will stand in the covering of Jesus as our intercessor does not mean that WE won't have to appear before Jesus in judgment. Jesus is the one who judges (John 5:22), so for him to stand in our behalf as you want it would put Jesus BEFORE the his own judgment seat. Christ judging Christ! Nonsense. What really happens in the judgment of the righteous is that Christ judges them with the understanding that they are covered in his blood, and so he looks at his righteousness that covers them. Jesus, in this judgment, can't intercede for us TO HIMSELF. Jesus only intercedes for us to the Father, but the Father isn't the one judging us. So I think you have it wrong here. Since nobody was standing before Christ, before Christ on his judgment seat from 1844 till now, then your pre-adventive judgment hasn't happened. Christ certainly wasn't standing in front of himself on our behalf, so I don't know how much clearer to say it.

"Where does the Bible say the righteous will be judged? Your own text: we must all appear..."

I made it clear that the judgment of the righteous is to decide their reward, as the text says. It's not a judgment over which they will be condemned, for Romans 8:1 says "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." You are contradicting this by saying that the judgment of the righteous is one in which God separates which ones are saved from which ones are lost because some of them lost their faith. I am saying that those who lost their faith are not righteous, and will not be involved in the judgment of the righteous.

Regarding the wicked, or the lost, you say:
" They are judged more than twice. There are several phases to the judgment. Before the second coming as described in Dan. 7, during the millennium Rev 20 and at the white throne after the millennium."

False. Let's look at Daniel 7:10-11 "A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire."

The court seated to make a decision that it was time to destroy the beast power. This is a judgment against the beast. Nothing is said here about a judgment of the righteous, so you are misapplying this text. In fact, notice how the dream was interpreted: "He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. ""But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever." (vss 25-26) So again, the court sits to take away and destroy the little horn or the beast. Nothing here about the righteous standing in judgment before Jesus Christ. This judgment against the beast may give us some insight into what takes place in heaven when God is going to punish particular sets of people in history, like when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

The rest of the text describes events concerning the coming of Christ that certainly have not yet happened.
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; ALL NATIONS and peoples of every language worshiped him. " (Dan 7:13-14) Did all nations worship Jesus between 1844 and today? No. Has the Son of Man come on the clouds yet? No. Verse 26-27 add this: ""But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and GREATNESS OF ALL THE KINGDOMS UNDER HEAVEN WILL BE HANDED OVER TO THE HOLY POEPLE of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him."" Now I don't know who my opponent thinks the holy people are, but neither the SDAs, the other Christians, not even the Jews, received rule over ALL THE KINGDOMS under heaven between 1844 and today! This isn't talking about God's kingdom, but all the earthly "kingdoms" (plural). And even here it doesn't say anything about the holy ones being "judged," only that they "receive" rulership over the earth's kingodms. So this first phase of judgment Pro thinks will happen is non-existent in Daniel 7. We have no other text given by him to show a pre-adventive judgment except his speculations about what the Day of Atonement rituals of Lev 16 represent; but I already shows how they were fulfilled in Jesus 2000 years ago. So Pro has no case here.

In Revelation 20, nothing at all is said about judgment taking place DURING the 1000 years. Rev 20:4 says that John saw some people who had authority to judge, but nothing is said about them executing judgment during the millennium, nor is any said to be judged not any books on judgment said to be opened until AFTER the 1000 years. (Rev 20:7, 11-15) So there is one judgment of the wicked. I am yet to see Pro quote the verse which speaks of the wicked in general being judged before the white throne judgment. Pro's position is simply not well supported by any Bible verse.

"We have (1) those who never get saved, (2) those who get saved and then apostatize and (3) those who get saved and stay saved. "

No, you are needlessly complicating this. We only have two groups. Those who die in a saved condition, and those who don't!

"There has to be a judgment that separates between groups 2 and 3 because, unlike those who always opposed God, people in group 2 might be indistinguishable from those in group 3 TO HUMAN EYES."

In your soul sleep theology, none of the billions of humans who died in history are present to see this Investigative Judgment of yours, so it certainly can't benefit their eyes. And to make it worse, not even the living humans on earth today, not even SDAs, are privy to hear the calling of the names and what is being said. So it doesn't benefit any human eyes. So I don't see how this judgment helps to clarify who is and isn't righteous in human eyes if we don't get to see the judgment, but only find out who was saved when we get to heaven. This is just a bad excuse for a non-existent pre-advent judgment. In fact, in my theology, it would benefit my eyes, and the eyes of all the righteous souls who have gone to heaven when their bodies died, for my spirit to stand before Christ's judgment seat on the same day that I die to receive my reward. Revelation 6:9-11 says that such souls of the saints who died are in heaven all now, and they ask for vengeance against the wicked living on earth, but they are told to wait until the full number of their brothers who are still here on earth with us are killed as they were. Your theology would make more sense and agree with the Bible if you believed what Jesus said: that when they kill your body, they won't be able to kill your soul. (Matt 10:28)

"God doesn't make decisions in secret but does everything openly so that all the parties involved can understand why God sent some people to heaven and some to hell."

Okay, so can you tell me some of the names that came up recently before God in this judgment that you say is going on as we speak? Can you tell me what these guys did to deserve their fate? No, because your IJ is secretly going on in heaven hidden from you! So much for not doing anything in secret. Now, as for the angels, where does the Bible say that God needs to prove anything to them? Give me the verse that says God needs to justify himself before them?

Mrs. White repeatedly stated that the angels already know our actions. In Testimonies Vol. 1, p. 544, she says: "Heavenly angels are acquainted with our words and actions, and even with the thoughts and intents of the heart." See also Vol. 2, pp. 181, 442, Great Controvery p. 486. This makes it unnecessary to have judgment for the angels' benefit, and I would love the verse which says that its for their benefit. So far Pro gave us none! SDAs teach that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection, therefore no I. J. taking place before Christ comes can inform the dead about God's justice in this matter.
Then how inconsistent to teach that an I. J. began in 1844, if God and the angels know "our words and actions" and "the thoughts and intents of the heart" and dead are unconscious till the I. J. is all finished.

" If all God wanted to do is point to the cross He would have stayed with the simple sacrifices that Abraham offered and would not have created this elaborate symbolic service."

Be careful not to exalt your logic above God's word. I already showed you how Jesus fulfills the entire Day of Atonement, not just at the cross, but in his taking our sins away. He is our High Priest, he is the temple, he is the sacrifice and the scapegoat, all this I showed. If every animal sacrifice offered each day of the year pointed the cross, why can't the day of atonement goats point to the cross and his resurrection (taking away our sins)? Jesus became our Passover lamb on the cross (1 Cor 5:7) and yet he was the lamb slain on the Day of Atonement. So all these festivals can point to the cross. Just because one points to the cross doing mean the others can't and must point to some later events. Man's wisdom and logic caused some to reject the Trinity, a doctrine we both affirm as Christians. Don't let your logic cause you to deny the facts I have given from Scripture.

"We don't believe the heavenly sanctuary has two rooms"

Great Controversy pp.359, 364-365 says they are, which I'll quote in the next round. I'm out of space.
Debate Round No. 4


MikeManea forfeited this round.


"Jesus has risen up, and has SHUT THE DOOR OF THE HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY, AND HAS OPENED A DOOR INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE, and has entered in to cleanse the Sanctuary. Said the angel, All who wait patiently shall understand the mystery. Man has erred; but there has been no failure on the part of God....I was then shown what did take place in heaven as the prophetic periods ended in 1844. I saw that as the ministration of Jesus in the Holy place ended, and HE CLOSED THE DOOR OF THAT APARTMENT, a great darkness settled upon those who had heard, and had rejected the messages of Christ's coming, and they lost sight of him. Jesus then clothed himself with precious garments. Around the bottom of his robe was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. He had suspended from his shoulders a breastplate of curious work. And as he moved, it glittered like diamonds, magnifying letters which looked like names written, or engraven upon the breastplate. After he was fully attired, with something upon his head which looked like a crown, angels surrounded him, and in a flaming chariot HE PASSED WITHIN THE SECOND VEIL. I was then bid to take notice of THE TWO APARTMENTS OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY....I was shown a Sanctuary upon earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven. I was told that it was the earthly Sanctuary, a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly Sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The vail was lifted, and I looked into the Holy of Holies, and saw that the furniture was the same as in the Most Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary. The priests ministered in both apartments of the earthly. In the first apartment he ministered every day in the year, and entered the Most Holy but once in a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in BOTH APARTMENTS of the heavenly Sanctuary." (Great Controversy, Ellen White) That shows SDAs believe the heavenly sanctuary has TWO ROOMS, though Pro denies it. Ye Heb 10:19-20 says the veil is Jesus flesh, not representing part of a literal place.

"As anciently the sins of the people were placed by faith upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentatn are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary." (Great Controversy, p.421) This is SDA doctrine.

They claim that the Investigative Judgment (cleansing of the Sanctuary) began in 1844 based upon Daniel 8:14, which says:

"And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (Dan 8:14)

Adventists teach that the "sanctuary" in this verse is the heavenly sanctuary, and that it is being "cleansed" from the sins of the righteous during the Day of Atonement process.

In order to test that claim, one should read the preceeding context which is found in verses 9-13:

"Out of one of them came forth a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. It grew great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them. It magnified itself, even up to the Prince of the host; and the continual burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt offering through transgression; and truth was cast down to the ground, and the horn acted and prospered. Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to the one that spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled under foot?" (Dan. 8:9-13 RSV)

Adventists teach that the "little horn" power represents Catholicism which ascended to power during the dark ages and persecuted Christians. They claim that the papacy established its own priesthood and obscured Christ's work in the sanctuary:

"Papal Rome effectively obscured the priestly, mediatorial ministry of Christ in behalf of sinners in the heavenly sanctuary (see Heb. 8:1,2) by substituting a priesthood that purports to offer forgiveness through the mediation of men. This apostate power would be quite successful, for 'he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered' (Dan. 8:12)." (Seventh-day Adventists Believe, p. 322, Review and Herald (1989)

Carefully think this through. Adventists teach "Papal Rome" was the little horn power of Daniel 8:9-12 that defiled the heavenly sanctuary by substituting its own priesthood. Then, in Daniel 8:13, the question is asked: How long will the defilement continue? Or, using Adventist reasoning, "How long will Rome be permitted to defile the Sanctuary?" According to Adventists, the 2,300 years ended in 1844, so was any part of the vision in Daniel 8:10-12 fulfilled in 1844?

Did the Catholic Church stop the confessional in 1844? No!
Did the Catholic Church change any of its policies or practices in 1844? No!
Did Protestantism unveil the truth about Catholicism in 1844? No, several centuries earlier!
Did any part of Daniel 8:10-12 come to pass in 1844? No!

Daniel 8:14 answers the question posed in verse 13 by saying that after 2300 days, "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Cleansed from what? From the defilement in verses 9-12. Adventists say that Rome defiled the sanctuary, so one would think that in order to be consistent, Adventists would teach that the "cleansing" refers to ending Rome's defilement of the heavenly sanctuary. But they do not! Instead, they switch to a completely different subject, and say that the "cleansing" of the sanctuary has nothing to do with Rome, but is talking about cleansing the sins of the righteous from the heavenly sanctuary during the Day of Atonement!

Adventists ignore the question asked in verse 13 and answer an entirely different question in verse 14! Instead of verse 13 asking how long was the little horn power to defile the sanctuary, Adventists have changed the question in verse 13 to "How long will the heavenly sanctuary be defiled by the confessed sins of God's people?" This is a completely different question than the one asked in the Bible!

The Bible truth is:
Daniel 8 never mentions anything that took place on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16)
Daniel 8 never mentions an offering for sin or a scapegoat
Daniel 8 never mentions the sins of the righteous
Daniel 8 never mentions an atonement for sins
Daniel 8 never mentions that "sins" are defiling the sanctuary

The idea that confessed sins are transferred to the heavenly sanctuary and are defiling it is not found anywhere in the passage of Daniel 8. Look at what various Seventh-day Adventist scholars have written regarding this problem:

C.L. Price: "What has defiled the sanctuary and made necessary its 'cleansing' is its defilement by the little horn. Confessed sins are not referred to at all; that is an alien thought, wholly brought in by the Adventist writers themselves." (C. L. Price, "Should a Question be Answered? A Study of Daniel 8:14 in New Light on Old Problems (1973)

Dr. Desmond Ford: "When would heaven intervene and stop the wicked aggressor? Verse 14 was the answer to that inquiry. But SDAs refuse to connect the two! Instead, they jump from the theme of evil deeds by an anti-God power to the theme of sins of the saints defiling a heavenly sanctuary. Let it not be missed: the context says nothing about believers defiling anything. Nor do the Old or New Testaments anywhere else teach that confessed sins defile the heavenly sanctuary. Even on earth the sanctuary of Moses was defiled by the act of sin, not by its confession. (Num. 19:13,20; Lev. 20:3)" (Desmond Ford, Daniel 8:14)

Dr. Robert Brinsmead: "In the context of Daniel 8:14, 'cleansing the sanctuary' means cleansing it from the pollution of the desolator (see Dan. 11:31 for a parallel scripture). To introduce into Daniel 8:14 the idea of cleansing the sanctuary from the confessed sins of the saints is not only a diversion but contrary to the context. The sanctuary is defiled not by the confessed sins of the saints, but by the evil actions of the little horn. (Even in the Old Testament tabernacle, which the Adventist interpretation brings in at this point, what defiled wasn't confessed sins but covenant-breaking and unconfessed sin.)" (Robert Brinsmead, Judged by the Gospel)

Dr. Raymond Cottrell: "In 1958 the Review and Herald Publishing Association needed new printing plates for the classic book Bible Readings, and it was decided to revise it where necessary to agree with the Commentary. Coming again to the Book of Daniel I determined to try once more to find a way to be absolutely faithful to both Daniel and the traditional Adventist interpretation of 8:14, but again found it impossible. I then formulated six questions regarding the Hebrew text of the passage and its context, which I submitted to every college teacher versed in Hebrew and every head of the religion department in all of our North American colleges---all personal friends of mine. Without exception they replied that there is no linguistic or contextual basis for the traditional Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8:14." (Raymond F. Cottrell, The "Sanctuary Doctrine" ? Asset or Liability?)

There is not a single Bible verse anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says that confessed sins are transferred into the holy sanctuary or defile the sanctuary in any way. The Bible teaches that the blood sanctifies or makes holy (Heb. 9:13). Jesus said his blood gives "life" (John 6:53). His blood is never described anywhere in the Bible as a transportation mechanism to move sins from sinners into the heavenly sanctuary.
Debate Round No. 5
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