The Instigator
James.ticknor
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Puck
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Deadliest Warrior: Samurai vs. Ninja...the ninja would have really won in a real life scenario.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/24/2009 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 15,200 times Debate No: 9544
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (2)

 

James.ticknor

Pro

I found this interesting when I watched the show. This show can teach us a lot about different cultures. Okay, now to begin the debate!

The simulation developed by Slitheren Studios (Copied from Harry Potter???) is designed for a head on battle between two said warriors. This is a battle to the death, should we not be mislead. This brings me to my first point.

Point 1: Stealth vs. Open Combat
Contrast
The Samurai is a bodyguard, more or less. Trained to identify suspicious or abnormal behavior in others and to expand and protect the Lord's property. They began training in fighting first, at age five. They practiced hand-to-hand, mainly. When they got older, they trained in the Katana, or the bow, according to the time period. Fighting is their main style. The extent of training was based on wealth, which many people were not wealthy.

The ninja, however is trained in stealth and open combat. Unlike the samurai, they do not learn just a general practice, but they are trained to adapt and analyze situations and systmatically resolve their method of attack with time and planning; they are trained to adapt to the situation, unlike the samurai.

"They travelled in disguise to other territories to judge the situation of the enemy, they would inveigle their way into the midst of the enemy to discover gaps, and enter enemy castles to set them on fire, and carried out assassinations, arriving in secret." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

If you can't see a ninja or recognize one in disguise, how will you block the rapid, deadly attack? It's not always open combat. Even if it is, they are trained to quickly disappear when they need to. They may not always succeed, but more often than not they will. In the simulation, it was just open ground or a forest. Either are likely to be in another place, such as a town. Even so, they didn't take this into account.
Puck

Con

[1]

"The Samurai is a bodyguard, more or less. Trained to identify suspicious or abnormal behavior in others and to expand and protect the Lord's property. They began training in fighting first, at age five. They practiced hand-to-hand, mainly. When they got older, they trained in the Katana, or the bow, according to the time period. Fighting is their main style. The extent of training was based on wealth, which many people were not wealty."

Once the official edict was issued Samurai had to be either farmers or retainers - hence the payment of rice instead of coin. The issue of wealth as a means of training I am unsure what you mean - a samurai was held in the service of his retainer and supported. Training as such was rigorous.

[2]

[1]

"The ninja, however is trained in stealth and open combat. Unlike the samurai, they do not learn just a general practice, but they are trained to adapt and analyze situations and systmatically resolve their method of attack with time and planning; they are trained to adapt to the situation, unlike the samurai."

Quite untrue. :) The samurai class basically fulfilled the dual role of aristocracy and elite warrior - the way of pen and sword as it was known. Literacy was a virtue as was study. Amongst those demands expected of a samurai was knowledge of statecraft, specifically as it related to battle, either large scale warfare or single combat. A samurai was expected to discourse with others of appropriate rank - thus every word a samurai spoke would reflect on his retainer - this core of Bushi, conducting oneself in regards for ones retainer, is why excellence in all relevant fields was pursued. [1][3]

"They travelled in disguise to other territories to judge the situation of the enemy, they would inveigle their way into the midst of the enemy to discover gaps, and enter enemy castles to set them on fire, and carried out assassinations, arriving in secret."

It also shows the specific role Shinobi were employed for, and it's not combat. It's confusion and espionage. Assassination was not a primary role, and the arts of Ninjitsu of that time reflected as such. Ninjitsu was about the techniques required for evasion and infiltration, not combat, much like the tools they used. The modern derivatives of Ninjitsu as a combat art are largely divorced from their historical precedents. [4]

"If you can't see a ninja or recognize one in disguise, how will you block the rapid, deadly attack? It's not always open combat."

on the tatami, when the moment comes there will not be time for making amends. There is only the matter of constant awareness. If it were not for men who demonstrate valor on the tatami, one could not find them on the battlefield either.> [1]

[1]

[2]

[2]

To assume a Samurai is unaware of the capacities of a Shinobi is unfounded, given they often held the wealth needed to train them - and in addition were a primary source of Shin-obi employment. The statement again ignores Bushi, in essence every manner of a Samurai's actions is a reflection on their retainer, duty to the retainer is paramount. This amounts to all aspects of life, from the manner of dress, hair, the way one spoke, walked and acted towards others. The manner of a samurai's death was a reflection on their retainer. Being unaware as such, in daily routine is an unfounded assumption. In fact part of a typical samurai's armament was the tessen, a metal fan, specifically for those occasions where normal weapon usage was
not able. [5]

"Even if it is, they are trained to quickly disappear when they need to. They may not always succeed, but more often than not they will."

Based on? A samurai was likewise taught to pursue, to perform the 'cut' without hesitation. To press any advantage. It's specifically this Shinobi attitude that would make them poor fighters in facing a samurai. One of the favoured tenets of Samurai training was yokoza no yari: [1]

[1]

It's precisely this attitude of fearlessness and copious training that made a Samurai so formidable.

"In the simulation, it was just open ground or a forest. Either are likely to be in another place, such as a town. Even so, they didn't take this into account."

A town gives the samurai secure footing, and advantage in close quarters. Castles were designed to trap and confuse invaders, samurai were trained to regard environment in terms of strategy.

Always chase the enemy into bad footholds, obstacles at the side, and so on, using the virtues of the place to establish predominant positions from which to fight. You must research and train diligently in these things.> [2]

It comes down to the roles each played. Samurai were the elite warrior caste. The shinobi's role was that of spy, sapper, saboteur, assassin. See the ninja wiki for a list of prominent failed assassination attempts - even with the element of surprise they were capricious results.

[1] Hagakure
[2] Go Rin No Sho
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
James.ticknor

Pro

James.ticknor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
James.ticknor

Pro

James.ticknor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
James.ticknor

Pro

Do excuse me, but I must concede this debate in it's entirety. Here's why:

Stupid people at my stupid school being stupid and I recieved 10 days suspension and was almost recommended for expulsion, due to showing a friend a vulgar letter, which they classified as "Distributing obscene material". This is a level 3 offense, just below assault on an employee and bringing a gun to school. I assume that ment pornographic material, and I had to convince them otherwise. Thank God I like to debate!

I would like to start this debate again with you, when I am able regular internet access, but I must CONCEDE.

Asta luego!
Puck

Con

Fair enough.
Debate Round No. 4
James.ticknor

Pro

Well, I don't see the point in writing anything, but I did have the sudden urge to post random Bible verses...not like I'm a religous nut or anything. However, I do find God positively.....yummy.
Puck

Con

In that case the correct religion would be His Noodliness, TFSM.
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
You can use the same speech as last time, I will so I won't have the unfair advantage of evading your points.
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 7 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
and are we limited to just what the show says/said
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 7 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
question do semantics go?
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 7 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
seeing as i have time ill look into this a bit
Posted by mongeese 8 years ago
mongeese
"Woah, weird spelling errors. I mean to say 'actually I hate it for it's inaccuracies...'."

Don't you mean, "Actually I hate it for its inaccuracies..."? Without the apostrophe?
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 8 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
make it 3 rounds and ill debate it
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
Woah, weird spelling errors. I mean to say "actually I hate it for it's inaccuracies...".
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
Panda, using the terrain is one of the ninja's most beneficial assets. This is why I don't like a debate like those, or the show Deadliest Warrior (actually I despite it for it's inaccuracies and the general stupidity of the hosts). If it was a plain battlefield, I'd wager that on average the samurai will win - the ninja simply can't match them in a calm one-on-one battle. However, many times warfare is NOT like this (or at least the ninjas try to make it not so). Ninjas were the covert agents of Japan, and the inspiration for SWAT teams and special forces - there's a reason why.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
I'll take this under the pretence the Samurai and the Ninja are in an area which gives neither a significant advantage e.g. an infinite stretch of dry grassland with no weather effects
Posted by Rayvun 8 years ago
Rayvun
I agree. Ninja are samurai, but have gone through extensive training since they were old enough to walk. Besides, Samurai have rules of honor and conduct that hold them down, Ninjas are simply assassins trained to kill and survive in the most effective manor possible.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
James.ticknorPuckTied
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Vote Placed by wonderwoman 7 years ago
wonderwoman
James.ticknorPuckTied
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