Death Battle's result of Superman beating Goku is incorrect.
Debate Rounds (4)
1. As con i must refute your arguments
2. As pro you must provide rational reasons for your position
3. This is not that goku would beat superman, just that Death Battle's result was incorrect
To be clear I don't if my opponent intends to have a bop or whether he wants this round for acceptance since he hasn't responded to that I await his case.
My main point for this argument comes from the fact that allot of people find that the fight was bias, or just done wrong. This is from the majority of claims that I have found on the internet and you tube. I will post some of the rants bellow. Most of the arguments come from within the actual battle itself. I will address this when Pro makes the specific claims.
I will refute any claims of it being unfair when Pro gives examples.
Methodology and Death Battle
The issue with Death Battle is the methodology they put in this project. I would like to point out that any result coming from faulty methodology with ultimately come out with the wrong result. Now by result I mean the justification and outcome of the battle. So I needn't attack Death Battle on the basis of purely outcome but complete result. When we speak of methodology in terms of battle to determine the fate of many fan boys, I think that the methodology of such a show must be considered. Rational thinking process shows us the truth, but regardless of the potential outcome of such a rational battle(in terms of who would win I mean), the methodology of Death Battle is clearly flawed and this hasn't been communicated by the intellectual community because the majority of the intellectual community are Superman fans, I remember being inside comic book stores all my life, but sadly this is battle Superman cannot win, and shouldn't win because this is a flawed methodology that Death Battle portrays as infallible. The problem with this specific methodology is that it over estimates maximum values, uses a variety of contradictory sources for Superman specifically, the lack of simulation, and overall the oversimplification of the factors both heroes possess.
The first point I want to talk about is the estimates of maximum values. Usually when somebody is doing something is that evaluates the value of powers based on optimal capacity, the problem is that when comparing optimal power of Superman and Goku, Goku is nearly always at optimal capacity, while Superman is both pragmatically and theoretically never at maximum capacity. Now while this may seem like a advantage to Superman, it really isn't. Superman may have no limits but typically(on the average day) Superman is hanging out as Clark. He isn't typically training all day and night simply because he wants to get better and break his mental blocks. Goku on the other hand is always training constantly and is always at maximum capacity. The problem with Death Battles methodology is it automatically assumes that Superman will somehow in a short amount of time be able to reach maximum(or at least extremely high) values of power in a incredibly short amount of time. The way that Death battle should measure the value of power as a average Goku and a average Superman. If we estimate the battle at optimal strength, than Superman always wins, plus this is unfair because its unrealistic.
The next issue I take with Death Battles methodology is the jumping around they do with their sources. We cannot take references from different series' and say that all of them are equally valid. Sometime Superman is simply overpowered, other times he gets hit with 15 supernovas and he is just fine. This seems rather unlikely and it seems important to note this inconstancy, to be fair they didn't consider it a fact and instead used the Animated Series for a source however there are so many sources involved in their methodology because we are talking about a fictional character cannot be equally valid. We must access the strengths and weaknesses objectively when we are talking about this battle, and the problem with their assumption that each Superman is equally valid. Superman has numerous contradictions if this is the case. Using different sources on the same subject which contradict each other isn't helpful for determining power and strength, nor does it help to determine weaknesses. The point of this battle is to show who win in a hypothetical battle to the end. Unfortunately for my opponent and for all those who consider death battle canon, it simply doesn't effect the outcome or results because of faulty methodology.
My next point has to do with the very nature of the show, it is apart of their faulty methodology that ruins the credibility in their show. Simulations have many advantages over pure analysis, the conceptual capacity of human naturally holds bias, so simulations have obvious advantages. The problem with Death battle is its pure analysis and mathematics, there is no science and testing. There is no verification, simply a situation of what they think would happen rather than any specific testing. It seems almost complete speculation based on mathematics of variable material. There are obvious problems with this, considering things like Goku's strength could be more considering a few examples of Goku's base power increasing throughout the series, unconsciously they admit this. They say the more battles and experience Goku undertakes the stronger he gets. He takes on so many enemies that he clearly increases in relative power, furthermore I do not believe weight lifting and moving/pulling is necessarily the only measure of strength. But the point is that simulations do not make mistakes such as interpretation on empirical data. All a computer does is plug in values and check for the winners. This isn't a perfect system of course but it at least reduces a number of issues that human bias effects.
Oversimplification of Powers
Now with regards to oversimplification of powers of both heroes, I really want to stress this point. The battle that they present to the audience is really simply a representation of what they would think could happen so what really matters is the analysis they provide, not the specific situation they use. The analysis they provide assumes both are at full power while as I pointed out only Goku would start at. Furthermore, the analysis doesn't account for Goku's ability to use his powers and regenerate them while fighting. Superman must recharge his powers by using the sun, therefore making it inconvenient at best for him to become fully healed let alone mega powerful and tough enough to withstand a Supernova. Furthermore, the problem for this channel is that while it suggests weaknesses in Superman and Goku, during the analysis they don't take into account these weaknesses in Superman. Furthermore, Superman is ridiculously assumed to be faster than Goku when taking about speed as a aspect in fighting however Goku is effectively infinitely faster than Superman due to Instant Transmission. Furthermore, they contradict themselves on this point during the analysis. They also seem to also simplify the importance of Ki, along with the role of martial arts(because it is debatable whether he actually TOOK THEM refer to my first argument), they also don't really see the ultimate super saiyan powers as they are seen in the series, the power that Super Saiyan increases power may very well be the values they say, but it seems that the people who use Super Saiyan forms gain a X factor. This X factor increases the Saiyans strength exponentially rather than geometrically. The last oversimplification I see has to do with the importance of Superman and Goku's power being depleted over time. In the analysis nothing is mentioned about the ability of Goku or Superman to withstand, not pain, but toll the powers have on their own bodies. Furthermore, the power of Kryptonian Martial Arts over the experience of Goku seems to be unjustified and unnecessary.
Death Battle is a extremely inaccurate show masquerading as a logical show. They have flawed methodology for determining the winners of fights and therefore the results cannot be accurate regardless of who should actually win. The truth is that my opponent must show how their methodology can be rectified in a way that makes Superman win, in order to somehow salvage his case.
I can see where you are coming from but the problem is that superman was not at his maximum. While he was in a prime he was far from his maximum. They gave Goku at his known maximum ((not counting future Goku because of the pure speculation)) and superman at relay good power. Also if we are talking about values the voice of Boomstick said in SideScrollers -Reactionary Reaction- That whenever they get to a problem with Goku, they lean in the favor of Goku.
I do not agree with this statement. Most stories that superman appears in while different keeps the main part of his character. It is true that his series has had many contradictions of the years but so has Goku. Like how Goku could get hurt by fire and lava yet could survive a planet exploding, and off course the battle is not canon, it's from a fan. If it was canon it would have a more deep plot and other things like each other knowing about each other.
You are completely right but I would not agree with your argument with strength. They were specifically looking at lifting strength and not punching strength so I think how it turned out made sense. But the problem with using a computer is that pure numbers is not what made the fighters win. They are more than just who can lift more and who can fly faster, it's also about their powers and other factors including their intelligence and what they could do that provides a problem.
Oversimplification of Powers
Again you bring up valid points but there is some problems with them. Since I have already stated that superman is not at full power just high power. When you state how Goku can use his powers I assume you are meaning how he can manipulate his ki after he has thrown it. I don't see how it is a problem since they state with certain attacks different versions and being able to move it. It was inconvenient because in their fight superman had to attempt to sun bathe when Goku was at super sayin 2. They do take into a factor of his weakness. He was stumbling because of kryptonite even though he could at least stand with it in his presence before. He also had to run for the sun 2 times in the fight highlighting his dependence on solar radiation. When they were in the speed category they were talking about raw speed, not moves that make them go instantly. His speed in fighting is debatable but since he can faze out of punches and is able to fight with the flash, it's debatable. Please clarify when you say they simplified the importance with Ki and Martial arts. The super sayin form you have a point but considering they still got the massive power boost I think they did it ok. They did address the powers taking the toll on their body's. With Goku it's that he needed to go Super Sayin 4 for his body to take the 4000 power increase. With superman they stated that overusing powers such at heatvison depletes his solar radiation reserve, making his body weaker. Your final point can be combated with that, while Kryptonain Martial Arts may not beat Goku's experience, the arts that he preformed where better than what Goku learned. Also he learned from Batman, that says enough in it self.
Death Battle is not a extremely inaccurate show masquerading as a logical show. They may have a few flaws but that is simply because of what they can do and small mistakes. Their methodology is fine for how they use it so it is fine for determining victors. They used feats and other calculations to show their strengths and limits. They also went into the core of their characters which while not relevant also has a beneficial understanding to the characters.
Center_for_Rationality forfeited this round.
Center_for_Rationality forfeited this round.
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