The Instigator
EmperorDao
Pro (for)
Tied
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The Contender
Forthelulz
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Death Korps of Krieg would defeat any military force in a battle on land

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/29/2016 Category: Games
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 206 times Debate No: 88901
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
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EmperorDao

Pro

Another game debate. Everything is simple and straightforward, I will be debating for the side of the Death Korps of Krieg from the Warhammer 40k series. My opponent will be allowed to pick an organized military force from any game, novel, movie, etc. All we must do is prove that, when fighting on land, why our military force would beat the other.

First round is for acceptance and statement of what military force you pick.
All further rounds are fair game as long as we defend our side and attack the opponents.

Lore would play a great deal in information of your force.

Restrictions:
No profanity, let's try and keep this peaceful.
The Flood may not be a military force, nor the Xenomorphs, Tyranid, or anything of those sort.

Any questions please voice in chat, be it about what force would be acceotable or definitions and so on.
Forthelulz

Con

I believe that, in an equal point, you know what, make it Apocalypse match, any given Tau cadre would mop the floor with the Kriegers.
Debate Round No. 1
EmperorDao

Pro

I commend my opponent on accepting the Debate and choosing the Tau Empire as his military force. The apocalypse scenario has been chosen and I agree upon it, and now, for my arguments.

First, we all know who the Death Korps of Krieg are. Faceless, fearless, loyal, autonomous weapons of the Imperium of Man's military. The Death Korps Kriegsman are a force to be reckoned with, soldiers who know no fear. All are willing to walk into an enemies heavily fortified defenses if it were asked of them, each of them willing to fight a Necron Flayed One in melee combat when given the opportunity. Each Kriegsman is the living embodiment of repent, they portray what it means to be a soldier, they question no order and take suggestions as though they were commands. Krieg regiments actively volunteer to go to the most hazardous of warzone, and kriegsman actively volunteer to go on suicide missions when they are suggested. Commanders are held with the utmost importance, but the objective and its victory are priority over all lives.

Now then, the Krieg armament usually consists of hundreds of heavy weapons, that includes artillery and gun emplacements. Standard weapons of choice used by Guardsmen are a special type of Lasgun which possesses fewer lasbolts per clip, but the lasbolts punch harder and straighter than other versions of the Lasgun. Shotguns are commonly used by Death Korps Engineers, and Stubbers utilized when in the myriad trenches the Death Korps of Krieg are so proficient in creating. All Death Korps units bear a melee blade of some kind, be it a bayonet, a sword, or a trench shovel or knife. Heavy weapons found among Death Korps infantry include Plasma guns, Meltas, Rocket Launchers, Grenade Launchers, and Flame units. Death Korps don't typically field many vehicles either, with Sentinel Scout Walkers being a more common sight than a Leman Russ Battle Tank. However, the Death Korps are siege experts and masters of the wars of attrition. As such, artillery is fielded en masse, countless shells for each gun are transported to load such weapons. The morale of the Death Korps is also one of impeccable standards, with each soldier being an efficient weapon in his own right, all are fearless and all are willing to die while fighting the enemies of the God-Emperor.

In an Apocalypse scenario, it would not be uncommon for Death Korps forces to field numerous Regiments, with Kriegsman numbers reaching the millions. One regiment alone is capable of making many foes cower as their faceless masks walk the battlefield to tear them apart, but with such a large force of Kriegsman being fielded, any foe, even the Tyranids, would have trouble breaking any defensive line and holding off any major assault. Titans from the Mechanicum would surely accompany the Death Korps regiments in an apocalypse scenario, albeit, they might more than likely just be a few Warhounds equipped with long range suppression weapons, one or two Imperators would surely make the field as well.

Moving on, the zeal of the Death Korps is one to be reckoned with. The Tau forces consist of troop variations, Fire Warriors are the standard infantry of the Tau Empire and are Tau themselves, they normally take with them a Pulse Rifle, which is capable of blasting right through Krieg armor. However, Kriegsman do not shy away from any battle and do all they can to push their lines directly into that of their enemies. As a result, Fire Warriors caught in the vicious melee that is ensued by Death Korps forces would be slaughtered, especially considering that Fire Warriors are not meant for melee combat and rely heavily upon their speed and range to destroy their enemy. Yet, the Death Korps make excellent use of Artillery, shelling entire regions of cover to ensure the enemy cannot use it, and then marching legions of infantry through no man's land while artillery commence a rolling barrage, effectively making the Death Korps invisible in the clouds of dust and explosions that covers their advance. Tau lines would be overrun by Death Korps forces, and anyone who isn't shot by one of those hard hitting lasguns is skewed by the bayonets and swords the Kriegsmen charge in with. Kroot Carnivores are the melee specialist of the Tau, yet, that is all they are truly good for. Kroot guns fire solid slugs and the Kroot themselves don't wear combat armor, making them particularly vulnerable to Death Korps guns, as a side note, the Death Korps also excel in close quarters combat due to their trench warfare and attrition like tactics, making them a formidable foe against any Tau melee specialist. Drones and vehicles are a great strength of the Tau, yet, Death Korps forces do not treat them as though they are much dangers at all. Soldiers would fire upon any available targets, and the heavy hits of their lasguns are capable enough to blow a drone out of the sky with one lucky strike. Tau vehicles excel in speed, range, or suppression, but their armor is nothing when compared to nearly any vehicle fielded by the Imperium. Death Korps forces would pursue and surround vehicles, or pull pins on Krak grenades and charge willingly into the Vehicle to make certain of its destruction.

As an added plus to the Death Korps themselves, they are not as narrow minded as many would think. Death Korps tacticians are surprisingly intelligent and versatile, being able to determine points of strategic value and managing every aspect of a plan to ensure its success. With artillery being an aspect in nearly every plan and the forwarding of forward trenches to make sure that Krieg forces can make it from one point to another as proficiently as possible, all while moving guns forward to bombard from afar.

The Titans that would be fielded in an Apocalypse scenario would also play a great deal in the battle. It is Death Korps of Krieg belief that every weapon and resource that is available should and will be utilized, no price is to great so long as the enemy is dead under their boots. With this in mind, Titans would be directed towards key objectives for the Tau, such as landing zones and Drone operation towers as well as strategic locations. The Imperator Titans are also capable of carrying numerous squads of infantry, allowing Death Korps forces to reside inside the Titan as it makes its earth destroying trek into the lines of the Tau, deploying the squads right into the midst of the Tau forces and therefore, maximizing the amount of damage the Kriegsmen can do.

Speed would not play a huge role in a battle against the Death Korps either, and speed is what the Tau rely on besides range. Yet, even that is cancelled out by the Death Korps. The Death Korps only attack when opportunity is shown, as a result, Krieg forces would reside in their trenches and wait for incoming assaults from Tau forces. With Artillery guns placed at every available point behind or in the trenches, Vehicles utilized by the Tau would surely be in trouble. With shells capable of reducing a building to no more than dust, and a range that far overlaps even the Railgun of the Tau Hammerhead. Gun emplacements all over the trenches, manned by Krieg soldiers, would be ready to unload their arsenal with boxes of ammo being fed into their chambers, and right when the Tau seem close enough, the Death Korps charge them on open territory where no cover exists for either side. And a vicious melee would break out, Krieg gunners picking off Tau units while Kriegsman slaughtered Tau forces.

Any battle lost by the Krieg would also result in more Tau deaths, since it is Tau nature to offer every available chance for their enemies to lay down their arms and join them. Kriegsmen see their welcome as an insult to their loyalty, and since all Kriegsmen are willing to do die as a means of repent for their ancestors betrayal, any soldier still breathing would stand up and attempt to take down as many Tau soldiers as he could. Making surrender an obsolete tactic for the Tau to use against the Death Korps.

Overall, in all aspects, the Death Korps manage to find a way to screw over their foes. They have speed, we have lots of guns and ammo, they have range, we have farther reaching artillery, they have diversity in their forces, we have men willing to blow themselves up if they have a grenade and see a group of them.

I await my opponent's opening and possible counter arguments.
Forthelulz

Con

In straight infanty-on-infantry, what with their AP5 weapons, needing only two die rolls to wound (To Hit, To Wound, Cover (if applicable)), compared to the Krieger's three (To Hit, To Wound, Armor Save/Cover).
In vehicle-to-vehicle, everything from the Leman Russ, Macharius, and Baneblade up to the Emperor-Class Titan can say hello to the Manta, which the Tau brought in specifically to make superheavies and Titans up and die, and Railguns also have the cheerful tendency to possess Ignores Cover.

Unless Krieg artillery has Skyfire, Tau WILL have air superiority on Turn 2 at the earliest, and then it's a fun game of "Blow up the Heavy Support", making that Basilisk battery die RIGHT NOW.

Now, the Kriegers have one semi-advantage over the Tau, and that's the Psychic Powers. For example, they can use Sacrifice to summon dedicated (Daemon) melee attackers with a free 5+ invuln save courtesy of the Daemon USR, maybe to soak up more fire than the psykers were taking.

Also, knock knock.
Who's there?
Markerlights.
Markerlights, who?
Markerlights saying hello to your cover save. Wait, what cover save?

To recap, if you're a Krieger and you Go to Ground, you get Template weapons to the face. If you assault, Tau get to demonstrate why they're the best gunline army. If you tunnel, it counts as Deep Strike and you can't assault, and, well, gunline army again. Bye.

However, Kriegers can win through objectives IF they Forlorn Hope intelligently, but the Tau would get a lot of kill points in the process.

Basically, it's a gunline army with some assault and sweet Deep Strike options vs. the best gunline army in the entire game.

Of course, this is assuming Battleforged. In an Unbound list, it's going to be nothing but Mantas and Objective-camping Fire Warriors.

But Tau get roflstomped by Dark Eldar, because death is my meat, terror my wine, and allying with Craftworld Eldar gets me better jetbikes and Banshee Masks, which gets me cool Assault tricks like Overwatch-cancelling.
Debate Round No. 2
EmperorDao

Pro

I... I had no idea that my opponent would be debating in terms of a the table top boardgame of WH40K, I suppose since his arguments and points reside in the table top game, then I will debate on those grounds as well.

When it comes to the table top game, and the Krieg and the Tau clash, it truly depends on the commanders and the forces in which the points have been divided. I would see that the logical choice in any Krieg player's army would consist mostly of Death Riders, large Krieg squads, Hyrda AA tanks, Basilisk artillery tanks, and a couple Warhhound titans bearing an autocannon and an incinerator arm. Despite the weakness of the Krieg armor and the low penetration of many of their guns, the sheer number of them would overwhelm whatever fire warrior squads the Tau side could bear. Death Riders and their large move distance and their explosive lances would do much to close the distance and destroy nearby vehicles and infantry... however, in the sense where you have camping fire warriors with pulse rifles with 24 inch range, the Krieg still come out first. Basilisk guns go up to and beyond 100 inches, allowing those tanks to effectively pound any squad, vehicle, or entrenchment a Tau Cadre could muster. Sure, the devilfish bombers and Mantas would wrest control of the skies, yet, those Hyrda AA tanks make short work of any airborne vehicle any faction could throw at the Krieg weapons. I do not doubt that many points will be claimed by Tau forces in the beginning of the game, and I do not doubt that when the Tau fire warriors get their defensive lines set up, the Krieg will take casualties. But when it comes down to it, both sides know the forces of the other, the Krieg titans would hit any objective head and use their suppressing weapons to effectively wipe out anything on the ground. Your titan hunters? They'll have to decide between Titans and artillery, which, a smart Krieg player would keep AAs near both. In all honesty, in the table top game, it would really depend on the commanders playing. Especially since in that version, it's turn based. I do not doubt that the Mantas would decimate vast swathes of Krieg units caught off guard, and more than likely, the first few turns on the Krieg side would be dedicated mostly to wiping out heavy Tau units more than charging into objectives and entrenching.
Yet, morale wise, the incinerators on the titans and the artillery strikes would deal much damage to Tau forces, casuing morale issues. Which, in the Krieg case, is not even an issue in the first place. With each volley the Krieg commit, Tau morale checks will be taken, and not every dice roll is good, and Tau Fire warrior squads are inherently smaller than Krieg squads. Either way though, on table top, it truly depends on the commanders, their personal strategies, and the map.
When speaking off of lore, the books, games, the codexes for both, the Krieg would dig trenches and create lines the Tau couldn't break. Everything would be happening at one time, which is drastically different than in the case of the Table top, which, can only be valid in this argument since the faction you chose was from the same universe.

I would like to hear more of your arguments.
Forthelulz

Con

Well, rest assured, Fish of Fury's dead.
However, if Krieg digs in, Rough Riders die to massed volleys and then it's a question of how many troops this particular commander is going to waste trying to push his drinks cabinet six inches closer to the enemy HQ.
Hydra Flak Tanks, while performing admirably in Anti-Air, are treated to the Manta being represented in Battlefleet Gothic with a save against dedicated anti-starship weapons. If one is deployed in your neighborhood, the place is going to be smoking crater very soon.
The Hammerhead is going to laugh at Krieg lines when it Overcharges and Blasts with S10 AP1. Tanks? What tanks?
Markerlights can zero cover saves and increase BS, making the entrenching pointless.
The Tau Barracuda/Tiger Shark is tougher than the S7 at BS3, which means that fully half the shots miss, and the other half have a reasonable chance of shreking the bombers.
Then the bombers get to deploy their payloads.
Basilisks are fun, but ungodly fragile, and suffer from Scatter and Indirect Fire causing them to not go where you want them to go.
In short, a sufficiently large Tau task force will win, especially if they get Turn 1.
Debate Round No. 3
EmperorDao

Pro

EmperorDao forfeited this round.
Forthelulz

Con

Forthelulz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Forthelulz 8 months ago
Forthelulz
The whole point of 40k is that every material you read is either omitting things, wasn't made with the complete picture in mind, was created from whole cloth, or all of the above.
Are the Ultramarines really second to the Emprah, or is that just their propaganda that we're reading for their (Matt Ward) codex?
Going by lore alone, the Kriegers with their numbers, flak armor and lasguns would stomp any army from any other universe, so it had to be from 40k.
Hence, fielding huge amounts of AP5 is pretty much the only way to start threatening them effectively.
Posted by EmperorDao 8 months ago
EmperorDao
I understand that and bring the hyrda counter... It's just... I have no idea how to respond to your argument... I was talking about lore and the books and games and background info.
I didn't think anyone would bring the table top game since the topic was Death Korps vs Anyone.
Posted by Forthelulz 8 months ago
Forthelulz
In all fairness, in the IG Codices, IG wins most of the time and is painted as a force that will take losses, but win. In Tau Codices, it's Tau taking home the wins. And Tau firearms are powerful enough to punch through Guardsman flak armor in both the fluff and tabletop.
In the fluff, the Manta was specifically brought about to hunt Titans and other superheavies, and the Kriegers are gound-to-ground trench warfare specialists, so yeah, Tau can pretty much laugh and shell them.
Posted by EmperorDao 8 months ago
EmperorDao
Are....are you basing the debate around the table top and not the lore...?
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