The Instigator
Kumquatodor
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Tophatdoc
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

(Death Note) L is Just as Evil as Kira.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Tophatdoc
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/23/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,894 times Debate No: 41122
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Kumquatodor

Pro

Warning: the following debate will likely contain spoilers for the anime/manga/movies "Death Note".

A great injustice has occured throughout the Death Note fandom. Many fans recognise L, the former World's Greatest Detective, as a hero.

I have come today to tear down this false idol and expose his corruption.

L is just as great an evil as Kira, and I wish t prove it.


First Round can be for acceptance, or arguments/rebuttals.

Tophatdoc

Con

I accept your challenge. As the con side I will be arguing that L is not as evil as Kira. The pro side will begin the debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Kumquatodor

Pro

How does one judge "evil"? Well, most veiw evil differently. I myself veiw Ryuk as the only "good" guy, so to speak. Regardless if we look at L and Kira we see that:

Kira's Crimes:
Lying to police
Resisting arrest
Murder
Cruel and Unusual Punishment
Hacking
Murdering Politicians
Threatening the World's Safety

L's Crimes:
Lying to police
Operating against orders
Severe Torture
Cruel and Unusual Punishment
Countless Civil Rights Violations
Hacking
(Likely) Murder
Threatening World's Safety by Confronting Unstable Kira
Indirectly Murdering Lind L. Tailor


Looking at their crimes, these two men (boys?) are doing the same behavior for the same reason. I hearby proclaim that L. Lawliet should be incarcerated to the fullest extent of the law.
Tophatdoc

Con

The pro side has to failed to provide definitions, so I will do provide them.

Definitions
1.Good-morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man
2.Evil-morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
3.Moral-of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

The pro side has suggested that L and Kira are equal because of their crimes. He goes on to state they are "doing the same behavior for the same reason." Both of these points neglect several facts.

1. Kira's and L. Lawliet's crimes are unequal.

The most significant difference between L. Lawliet and Kira is that only one of the two has committed murder. It is well known that Kira killed hundreds or possibly thousands or better yet hundreds of thousands, of people over a six year period. All he did was write their name down in a book, then hey died. L. Lawliet in Deathnote was not shown as murdering anyone at all. Where did Kira obtain the authority to kill all these people? Kira, did not have the authority so he would be prosecuted with the heaviest sentence as possible if he was convicted of his crimes. Kira killed criminals and innocent people without hesitation.

L. Lawliet did lie to the Japanese police, commit torture, and engage in other minor illegal activities. But how does L. Lawliet's crimes equate to a mass murderer? As said earlier, L. Lawliet did not kill anyone.

To suggest that L. Lawliet indirectly murdered Lind L. Taylor is also false. L. Lawliet did not tell Kira to kill Taylor with the Deathnote. L. Lawliet only had Lind L. Taylor make a tv appearance to warn Kira. How would L. Lawliet know that Taylor would be killed? I would argue the death of Lind L. Taylor can not even be considered third degree murder by L. However, Kira committed first degree murder when wrote Lind L. Taylor's name in the Deathnote.

3. Kira and L. Lawliet do not have the same reason for engaging in illegal activities.

Kira's original motivation was to punish criminals. Eventually, Kira would arrive at the idea that he would be "god of the new world." In this world, Kira would dictate who lives and who dies. Kira considered himself above the law because he would be god. As time progressed in the Deathnote series, Kira would steadily become more amoral killing anyone who might be a threat to his plans. Why? Kira said he was justice and would create the morals of this "new world." Even when Near and the others finally corner Kira in the last episode the second season, Kira remained resolute. As the clip I provided shows that Kira remained unapologetic for his actions and would continue if given the chance. How is this not evil? Kira would definitely be considered evil by many people for his actions.

L. Lawliet's motivation was to catch Kira "by any means necessary." Lawliet had no intention of creating a new world or slaughtering those whom he disliked. L. Lawliet's crimes were done with remorse. in the episode, "Unraveling," L. Lawliet demonstrates that he is sorry for spying on the Japanese police. That is how he is able to work with the remaining detectives. Originally, Lawliet suspected the Japanese police because he was trying to find Kira. When Lawliet captured Light Yagami(Kira) and his girlfriend(Misa), he violated human rights with his methods. But even then Lawliet apoligized to them both later. L. Lawliet is nowhere near as malicious as Kira.

L. Lawliet is not a zealot but a pragmatist trying to stop Kira. Kira on the other hand wants to create a "new world" and doesn't mind this world being built on a massive pile of bodies. The crimes of L. Lawliet and Kira are unequal in practice as well as intention.
Debate Round No. 2
Kumquatodor

Pro

L was testing whether or not Kira could kill Tailor. If the answer was yes, then L would have let Tailor die. But going further, after finding the Death Note, L intended to test the 13-day rule by using it. That would have been murder.

L. Lawliet did lie to the Japanese police, commit torture, and engage in other minor illegal activities.
Torture is outlawed in the entire WORLD! He greatly stretched the law when he kept Amane for 50 days, though this isn't extremely illegal.

3. Kira and L. Lawliet do not have the same reason for engaging in illegal activities.
While it is true that Kira is a raging psycho with a God-Complex, it is also true that this was powered by a zeal for justice. He wanted a safe world that he wanted to rule over, his justification being that this was the only way to keep the world safe from scum.

So Kira, reapor of Justice, faced off against another man who would also disregard the law in order to enact his own "justice". L, in his first appearance, claims to be justice.

Both men leap ofver parts of the law that don't suit them, like operating despite being order to be shut down, kidnapping, extreme torture (3 days straight), killing Lind L. Tailor, and violating civil liberties. These are just the things we know he has done. Imagine what he has done during other cases.
Tophatdoc

Con

Remember the burden of proof is on the pro side.,

"L was testing whether or not Kira could kill Tailor. If the answer was yes, then L would have let Tailor die. If the answer was yes, then L would have let Tailor die. But going further, after finding the Death Note, L intended to test the 13-day rule by using it. That would have been murder."

Those are valid possibilities the pro side has made. But they are all theoretical. The point is L did not test the 13 rule. What is intended doesn't matter/ After all perception is really so only what he actually did mattered.

"Torture is outlawed in the entire WORLD! He greatly stretched the law when he kept Amane for 50 days, though this isn't extremely illegal.:"

The pro has only stated an opinion not a fact. There are many places in the world where torture is permitted and legal. even in the United States officials have water-boarded terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.

http://www.infoplease.com...
http://www.un.org...

"Both men leap ofver parts of the law that don't suit them, like operating despite being order to be shut down, kidnapping, extreme torture (3 days straight), killing Lind L. Tailor, and violating civil liberties."

The pro side has failed to point how L's crimes is equal to that of a mass murderer who slaughters criminals and innocents.
Debate Round No. 3
Kumquatodor

Pro

The reason why their crimes are equal is because they both have the same motive: justice. Kira may have a god-complex, but that does not mean that he doesn't believe that he is justice.

L does similar actions to preform justice.

If the situation was reversed, L would likely perform the same actions as Kira, judging by how he already forgets the law when it suits him.

The pro has only stated an opinion not a fact. There are many places in the world where torture is permitted and legal. even in the United States officials have water-boarded terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.
The UN is calling for it to be tore down, like they are for other torturous facilities.
Tophatdoc

Con

"The reason why their crimes are equal is because they both have the same motive: justice. Kira may have a god-complex, but that does not mean that he doesn't believe that he is justice.

L does similar actions to preform justice."

The pro side seems to assume intentions and results are equal. I disagree entirely. What one intends and what is the results of those intentions are distinctively separate concepts.

The words justice and evil have separate meanings.
Justice:the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Evil:causing harm or injury to someone
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

I never denied that Kira thought that he was justice. What the other characters in the Death Note world thought was different. The other characters only payed attention to the results of Kira's actions. That is why they thought Kira was evil and that is why the authorities were pursing Kira. The crimes of Kira and L Lawliet are not equal. Kira has obviously caused a significant amount of more harm than L Lawliet. The Con side refuses to acquiesce on this point.

"If the situation was reversed, L would likely perform the same actions as Kira, judging by how he already forgets the law when it suits him."

What evidence is there to show that L Lawliet would become a mass murderer? Perhaps, we are forgetting L Lawliet was brought in by the authorities to pursue Kira. Therefore, the authorities of the law are on L Lawliet's side, not Kira's.
Debate Round No. 4
Kumquatodor

Pro

Kira has obviously caused a significant amount of more harm than L Lawliet.
It was all done for "justice". Kira did not cause more harm than L Lawliet. He stopped wars, ended crime, essentially ended the maffia, killed corrupt politicians, and ended terrorists. The "wrong" he did: killed FBI agents, lied to police, killed detectives. That would seem to be a pretty nice ratio of right and wrong.

L tortured, lied, broken laws, etc. for "justice", too. The only difference is that Kira actually stopped criminals, while L only took cases interesting to him.

Tophatdoc

Con

My opponent has failed to prove how the crimes of a mass murderer equates to a person given the authority to break the law. My opponent ignored the my point how the authorities were chasing down Kira not L Lawliet. If L Lawliet was equally evil wouldn't the proper authorities being chasing down L Lawliet as well? Their crimes are not equal. Again the word "justice" and "evil" have different definitions. It is clear by the standards of most people in the Deathnote world and real world that Kira was evil. In the Deathnote world, authorities from various places across the globe were trying to stop Kira. In the real world, most mainstream religions find murder deplorable. Kira was a mass murderer.

Shall we revisit Kira's kill count? Kira not only killed criminals, FBI agents, and detectives as my opponent points out.

Kira's killcount:
1,000-100,000+ criminals, I estimate these because it was Ryuk who said Light had killed over a hundred criminals in the third episode. Kira had the Deathnote for several years.
Lind L. Tailor
FBI agent( Raye Penber)
a former FBI agent(Naomi Misora)
a con-man(Aiber)
a catburglar(Wedy)
Kira worshippers
Sakura TV director (Hitoshi Demegawa)
the head of a Yotsuba Group(Kyosuke Higuchi)
Reiji Namikawa and the rest of Yotsuba Group
Three agents of the Special Provision for Kira

L Lawliet's killcount:
L Lawliet did not kill anyone.

In ending, let me say I will never capitulate on the point that Kira and L's crimes are equal. L Lawliet broke the law but he didn't slaughter thousands of people merely by writing their names down. Kira was the embodiment of murder itself, yet the pro wants to us to ignore it. A few minor illegalities committed by an agent are incomparable to a murderer of thousands. If you agree that Kira is more evil than L, vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Ok. I wanted to check before accepting, in case there was something from the manga that L did which was not in either of the forms I've watched. Granted I could take this debate from either side, as Kira caused a massive decrease in evil in the world, and while being evil himself, subjectively he may have done more good.

Good luck to you both in this debate.
Posted by Kumquatodor 3 years ago
Kumquatodor
They all tend to follow the same story.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Anime, Manga, or Movies?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Yraelz 3 years ago
Yraelz
KumquatodorTophatdocTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: In a debate of quantifiable impacts I think Con is way ahead. Kira was a mass murderer, L murdered no one. I also give sources to Con, for his one source.
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 3 years ago
Logical-Master
KumquatodorTophatdocTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Great debate on both sides, but I've gotta give it to CON. Pro more or less confined himself by arguing that L was JUST AS evil as Kira. I find PRO's argument that L was evil quite convincing and am inclined to agree, but as CON demonstrated, PRO failed to show how any of L's actions equates to Light's efforts at mass murder.