The Instigator
D4RTH
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Zarroette
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

Death is Fine

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Zarroette
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/16/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 438 times Debate No: 73577
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (3)

 

D4RTH

Pro

Death is nothing to be afraid of, I'm not, those who love life are greedy and selfish. If you have lived beyond your lifespan you'll agree with me. If you don't, you're a coward. The love for our own lives brings fear, which can control us. All love is destruction, because we will be prepared to do anything for who or what we love. That's the conflict.
Zarroette

Con

Thank you, D4RTH, for instigating this debate. My opponent has the burden of proof of showing that death is fine, meaning that if I show an instance of death not being fine, the resolution is negated.


Negative Case

Firstly, the definition of fine needs to be established. Based upon Pro's opening round of arguments, I will take fine to mean:

"satisfactory; acceptable" [1]

This would be taken in the sense of "that's fine by me", similar to how "death is fine". In other words, there is nothing too wrong with death.


A1: Child loss effects on parents

It should be rather intuitive, but the effects of death on the people still alive are largely very negative.

According to a mass study by Rogers and Floyd of Georgia State University, and Seltzer, Greenberg and Hong of the University of Wisconsin (2008), the results found that the effect the death of a child has on parents found that parents had longer lasting difficulties than originally suspected [2]. Quoted in the source, the American Psychiatric Association (2000) found that these parents experienced depressive symptoms in their grief (this is abnormal). Li et al (2005), again quoted in the text, found that "depressive episodes tend to follow the death of a child, Finally, another quote from within the text referring to Bohannon (1991) and Parkes (1998) found that parents who lost a child were at a greater risk for health and marital problems.

Perhaps the impacts which really demonstrate how brutal child loss is comes from the work Lindemann (1944), who is also cited in my 2nd source. From Lindemann's work, he saw that, "neither traditional conceptualizations of grief [meaning despite the way you look at it] as having a time-limited impact followed by a return to normal functioning". In other words, parents never return to "normal functioning" after the loss of a child. Later in the century, Prigerson et al. (1999) contributed to this understanding by adding that persistent, long-term difficulties never receded.

There are many more conclusions to be extracted from this source that would further negate the resolution, but that is enough to make my point. Based on this particular source, the impacts of child death on parents are: harsher grief when it arises, depressive episodes, greater risk for health and marital problems, never returning to normal functioning and permanent, long-term difficulties.



A2: Effect of parental death on children

In a study by Maier and Lachman (2000), titled 'Consequences of early parental loss and separation for health and well-being in midlife', wherein in was found "that loss or separation from parents in childhood [has] a negative impact on health problems and psychological adjustment in midlife and that the effects are more pronounced for divorce" [3]. Moreover, the study elaborates to conclude that "parental death [for children] was also related to lower educational attainment". Another relevant point was that, "the relationship between parental death and depression for young women found in other studies (e.g. Brown, 1981) was replicated in this study". Those specific effects that are being cited in Brown were as follows, "[young women whom] reported severe loss events [i.e. death] were likely to have precipitated onset of a depressive disorder (within 1 year)" [4].

So, the impacts of parental death found in this research were: negative impact on health problems and psychological adjustment in midlife, lower educational attainment and for young women, depression and development of a depressive disorder.


Counter-arguments


"Death is nothing to be afraid of. I'm not"

What happens after death is relatively unknown. According to the extensive work of Mary Baxter, "Hell is a real place of burning torment" [5]. I believe the potential for a place of burning torment makes death something to be afraid of.


"those who love life are greedy and selfish. If you have lived beyond your lifespan you'll agree with me. If you don't, you're a coward."

The first part of my opponent's argument here is a bare assertion. In form, there is merely the statement of "those who love life are greedy and selfish" is not back by evidence, sources or anything. Hence, it is a logical fallacy [6].

The second part is saturated in logical fallacies: (1) there's no proof that anyone will agree with my opponent, so this is another bare assertion, (2) this is an appeal to authority, as only those who have "lived beyond your lifespan" are apparently capable of understanding the argument my opponent is making [7], and (3) "lived beyond your lifespan" is internally contradictory, as if you've lived beyond your lifespan, then that wasn't your lifespan! Your lifespan only ends when you die!

The third part is an insult to opposition, of which includes me. I urge voters to consider penalising my opponent for calling me "a coward".



"The love for our own lives brings fear, which can control us. All love is destruction, because we will be prepared to do anything for who or what we love. That's the conflict."


More bare assertions. Besides, even if I conceded all this, the resolution would not be affirmed.


Conclusion

I have shown two clear instances wherein death is not fine (i.e. something that is acceptable or satisfactory). Death has a crippling, permanent effect on the lives of people around and is clearly anything but fine. I have also negated my opponent's arguments. Therefore, as it stands, the resolution is negated.


References

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[2] http://www.waisman.wisc.edu...
[3] http://ncfm.org...
[4]http://tinyurl.com...
[5]http://www.divinerevelations.info...
[6] http://www.toolkitforthinking.com...
[7] https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...
Debate Round No. 1
D4RTH

Pro

D4RTH forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
D4RTH

Pro

D4RTH forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
D4RTH

Pro

D4RTH forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Zarroette 1 year ago
Zarroette
He's not a troll, hell he seems somewhat smart. He just can't express himself in English all that well. Someone should interview him some day and find out exactly what his deal is.

I'm getting better pretty quickly. I'll get back into proper debates very soon, because as fun as it is to run through noobs, the real growth comes from getting your arguments smashed and your ego shattered. My first win had me debating much worse than my last loss.
Posted by Yassine 1 year ago
Yassine
- vi_spex is a species on his own, his ideas are so odd, you can't tell if he's a troll or just crazy!

- I know you did plenty of good debates, I read some of them, you're really good. If I ever debated you, I would have to be serious about it. I am quite the lazy type.
Posted by Zarroette 1 year ago
Zarroette
You won't ever get me, trust me ;)

I saw that you tagged vi_spex. How courageous of you! Btw, I'm not completely a noob-sniper. There are some legit wins in there. I swear!!!
Posted by Yassine 1 year ago
Yassine
- I'll get you the next time. I am monitoring new debates to snipe some noobs. I actually started this from reading through your debates, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea after all. So, thanks for that.
Posted by Zarroette 1 year ago
Zarroette
I'm too quick for you!

=)
Posted by Yassine 1 year ago
Yassine
- Damn, I just clicked accept challenge & it says it's no longer in challenge period. You beat me to it in a sec. Well, good luck to you, I know you'll wreck it.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Lee001 1 year ago
Lee001
D4RTHZarroetteTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Ragnar 1 year ago
Ragnar
D4RTHZarroetteTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Yassine 1 year ago
Yassine
D4RTHZarroetteTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: - Conduct: FF & ill-manners of Pro. => Con's win. - Argument: Con conclusively established the negation of Pro's resolution by providing undisputed counter-examples of parents/children death's not-fine effects on children/parents (which she needn't to defend, yet she did). => Con's win. - Sources: Pro provided none. => Con's win. *OVERKILL*