The Instigator
JasonMc
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points
The Contender
fresnoinvasion
Con (against)
Losing
17 Points

Debate me about anything you disagree with Ron Paul on: foreign policy, economy, Iraq/Iran, etc

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 946 times Debate No: 1749
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (8)

 

JasonMc

Pro

I don't believe that Ron Paul's words are like gospel, but I agree with nearly everything he's saying right now, and I'd love to debate someone about it. I differ slightly with his environmental views, but I believe Ron Paul becoming the next president of the US is the best chance the environment has got, and I can explain why in this debate or another.

I debate to challenge and refine my political beliefs, as well as yours. Maybe I'm right, or maybe you are. Either way, I aim to arrive at a more enlightened position by the end of the debate. PLEASE leave your emotions at the door. I'm looking for rational, well thought out debating here, not a shoot from the hip type of argument that will get neither of us anywhere.

Please explain specifically what it is about a certain principle of Ron Paul's that you don't like. If 3 rounds is too short, I'll repost for longer.
fresnoinvasion

Con

First, i just want to say that I am too a Ron Paul supporter, i can't vote for him, but thats besides the point. I agree with ALMOST everything he says, listening to him in the debates, he is the only one that is true. These are just my opinions and im sure many agree, and disagree with me.

Being a supporter of Ron Paul I often visit his web-site. Ron Paul, as with every other candidate, has a tab on his web-site with his position on all the "major" issues. I have read through there multiple times but one thing does stand out to me. His position on homeschooling.

"Returning control of education to parents is the centerpiece of my education agenda. As President I will advance tax credits through the Family Education Freedom Act, which reduces taxes to make it easier for parents to home school by allowing them to devote more of their own funds to their children's education...I will veto any legislation that creates national standards or national testing for home school parents or students...I am committed to guaranteeing parity for home school diplomas and advancing equal scholarship consideration for students entering college from a home school environment."

Home schooling is a good thing, if they are held accountable to their childs learning and Ron Paul sadly does not do that. Ron Paul also will give tax credits to homeschool parents so they have more money, to buy supplies. I know a couple kids that are homeschooled. One of them has been my friend since 2nd grade. I always saw him as a smart kid, good kid. He went to homeschool in 4th, and things seemed to go downhill. He abused the fact that his mom was very leniant on the schedule, so he went out and skated. It started as just a little a day then work, then to all day, no work. My point is, the school system is good as every other around the world because, for the most part, we are held accountable to being there, and being on time. Im not saying the school system is the best in the world, i believe we are far from it. But with Ron Pauls plan we give money to parents that homeschool their child. In my friends case, he does NOTHING in his homeschool anymore. But his Mom would still be recieving money.

I also don't like the fact that he will give money to parents for homeschooling, but not hold them accountable with standardized tests. Not only is he not holding them accountable, he will give equal chances of getting into college of these homeschoolers.

I look foward to hearing back from you, the debate is on this plan in particular right?
Debate Round No. 1
JasonMc

Pro

Yes, this debate is on this plan in particular. Ron Paul is trying to counter the stupifying of America by the Dept of Edu with his education agenda. The federal gov has no business controlling how we are educated. The more they have to control, the more there's a potential for manipulation that serves private interests, such as how money is distributed within and from the Dept of Edu. The Dept of Edu is a giant bureaucracy that just wastes a lot of tax dollars. This is a good example of why the founders of this country subscribed to the philosophy of a limited government.

Look at the current condition of public schools in this country and tell me they're in good shape. They are a shining example of a good argument against socialism. When governments socialize things such as education, the overall quality goes down. Name some examples of countries around the world that have been socialist for a few decades and tell me how well their government has taken care of everything. You'll find things look pretty run-down in such places.

Compare this with the condition of schools in America today. Sure, some of them may have real nice football fields and campuses, but they don't have enough money to maintain music or physical education programs, or to give teachers the pay they deserve. Our quality of education has suffered dearly because of this. In Indiana, the schools have so little money that parents can't keep the books that they buy their kids at the beginning of each year.

By standardizing tests, the government forces the quality of our education down further. When students are held to a certain standard while the quality of our education is slipping, overall test scores begin to decline, and the standard has to be dropped. This is a slippery slope that is perpetuated by the government, and is responsible for the fact that our education system is inferior to that of so many foreign countries, like in Europe and Japan.

By giving parents the option and incentive to home school, you thereby end the gov monopoly on education. Ron Paul wants to eliminate the Dept of Edu so that the billions of tax dollars that get dumped in to it can instead stay with the people and they can have the say over how their children get raised. These problems didn't exist until the Dept of Edu was installed and sucked all of the money out of education.

I have known people that homeschooling didn't work well at all for. One person in particular was very respectable and intelligent, but had all of the social skills of a badger. I tried homeschooling for a semester when I got kicked out of high school and it didn't work for me. The issue is, however, that public school wasn't working for me either. I had problems at home. So did the kid whose parents chose not to socialize him, which ultimately led to his death.

Point being, the problem lies with the people, not with the government.
Further more, why shouldn't those who have been home schooled have the same chances someone of getting into college who's gone to public school as long as they meet or exceed the level of education the college requires them to have?
I went to public school, never earned a single high school credit, was suspended the second week of my sophomore year, and achieved a 4.0 GPA my first year of college six years later.

Granted, I would've been better prepared for college if I had stayed in school, but I was kicked out for telling some kid that I was going to fight him. Though I was being a stupid sixteen year old, my life was ruined for several years after the incident. I had several thousand dollars to pay in legal and counseling fees, as well as probation for nearly two years all over an incident which has never been anything out of the ordinary for children to be involved with in human history. I was simply a kid being a kid and the government got involved and made it one of the most troubling times in my life. See what government in schools can get you?

The public school system is broken also because of the fact that you have school counselors diagnosing students with medical / mental conditions though they've never had any formal medical education. If a student is a little high strung, or actually has a problem such as ADHD, he or she is assessed and given drugs to control the symptoms regardless of what is truly causing the problem. Tell me that the drug lobby doesn't dump any dollars into the department of edu to maintain this problem.
fresnoinvasion

Con

Round 2 education

I first want to go over the arguments my opponent dropped.

"Home schooling is a good thing, if they are held accountable to their childs learning and Ron Paul sadly does not do that."

"he will give money to parents for homeschooling, but not hold them accountable"

I will later go into the significance of these arguments, besides being practically all of my arguments in the first round. But as you know, in debate silence is consent, he didn't refute them, that must mean he agrees.

Although he did fall short on refutation he did bring up some good points. But some seemed to be irrelevant due to myself conceding the argument that in some cases homeschooling is good but in others it is not. My opponent says "I have known people that homeschooling didn't work well at all for...So did the kid whose parents chose not to socialize him, which ultimately led to his death." Link that to my argument about my skater friend, although it did not lead to his death, it lead him to a world of alcohol, drugs, crime, and who knows what else. So that seems like something we agree on, not disagree. It does not work for everyone, but these students are not placed back into the public school. But link that to my argument "I also don't like the fact that he will give money to parents for homeschooling, but not hold them accountable" I will use my friend as the example, for i don't know enough about my opponents friends story. But my friend is not learning anything. His days are filled with skating at the local state parks walking around town, malls ect. But with Ron Pauls plan his mom will still be recieving money for no effort on her end, no learning is taking place for the child, just another waste of government money.

I do believe that they should be held accountable, there is a multitude of ways in going about this, but i will highlight one.

1. Home schooled children will take the same standardized as the rest of the kids in public schools. If they do not pass with basic or above and at least %50 percent of the public school kids score basic or above, the child will be immediatly returned to the public school system.
But if they score better than %70 of public school students the family will recieve the tax credits.

The percents and whatnot are not set in stone but i think that he should enforce something like that.

If Ron Paul does get to pass his plan we will see a huge percent of public school students who do not want to be there drop out into homeschool. The budget will heavily lean toward these tax credits and even less money will be spent on the public school system. "The Dept of Edu is a giant bureaucracy that just wastes a lot of tax dollars." Can you explain in what ways the Dept. of Edu. is wasting tax dollars? And how they are wasting more tax dollars than Ron Pauls plan will? He want's the give money to the parents of homeschooled students without making sure they are learning anything. Students that don't want to be in public schools will go to homeschool, waste their days away in front of the computer, video games, skateboards, not learn anything. And just reep the benefits of being homeschooled. For no work or learning the parents will recieve extra money on top of regular pay. If you want to talk about wasted money, you should see what the plan you are promoting does first. We must make sure they learn if they are getting paid for it. You claim the education system is bad now, but you advocate this plan? This is in no way going to fix it.

"By standardizing tests, the government forces the quality of our education down further. When students are held to a certain standard while the quality of our education is slipping, overall test scores begin to decline, and the standard has to be dropped."

Standardized tests are good for one thing in particular, holding teachers accountable. I do agree that there is a lot of controversy surrounding standardized tests, but in this case it at leasts hold the parents accountable for learning, and not just letting them chill around town.

Ron Paul is a great candidate in many, many aspects. But in this case he is not. He wants to give money to parents that homeschool their child and will stop testing. But the dangers behind that are obvious. Kids wont learn, they don't want to learn, they never have, and we do see the school systems quality, but the plan buts the responsibility on parents. According to adoption.com there has been more child abuse and neglect cases than ever before. You are taking the responsibility out of trained, professional teachers, and into the hands of parents, that will not get the job done right, and end up making the school system worse than it already is. We must take a logical, insightful way to fix the school system, not waste more tax dollars on ridiculous programs.

Thank you, and I look forward to hearing your response.
Debate Round No. 2
JasonMc

Pro

JasonMc forfeited this round.
fresnoinvasion

Con

I dont mind you missing the round, things happen. I was close to missing mine as well. I will still answer the arguments presented.

"My opponent claims that, because they know a couple of people that homeschooling didn't work for, that giving parents the option and incentive to home school their kids can't work. Under that logic, public school can't work because I know MULTITUDES of people that the public school system didn't work for. My opponent then goes on to say that the public school system is as good as any in the world, and then says it's far from the best. Which is it? Anyone who's paying attention can see that our school system is failing our country terribly."

I do realize my typo and im sorry for any misunderstanding due to it, it was late when i posted that. But i agree that the school system is failing, i am currently in high school, and for some students it is not working. We all see the problem. A solution is possible, with a deep understanding of the problem, an intricate solution can be found. However, the plan Ron Paul is advocating is far from the solution. And will cost U.S. taxpayers to a great degree.

"My opponent claimed that I dropped his arguments in round 2 by addressing how the MANY downfalls of the public school system outshines their logic of knowing a couple of kids who homeschooling didn't work for, so anyone who home schools their kids will not be held accountable, and thus it can't work for anyone. To directly address a lack of accountability and giving money to parents, I would say that my opponent needs to research the home school success ratio vs that of a public school and then tell me what works and what doesn't. What about the several issues raised in my argument that my opponent failed to discuss?s"

I don't believe that I dropped any arguments, I took much time and consideration to construct my argument. However, my opponent clearly did drop those arguments, significant ones. Thankfully, after being reminded of those arguments he did have an answer. "I would say that my opponent needs to research the home school success ratio vs that of a public school and then tell me what works and what doesn't." Currently 2.2 percent of kids are homeschooled, and yes we do see success with many. But as my example, and my opponents example points out, it does not work for everyone. And for my opponents example it lead to his death. And as my opponent pointed out, the public school system does not work for everyone. Again, I am not against homeschooling as a whole, just what this plan wil do. As many know, most kids dont want to be in school. Parents would be willing to let them "drop out" of the system to be homeschooled so they can recieve the benefits Ron Paul is offering, but will have their children do nothing school related, because they will not be held accountable.

This plan is what we are debating on and I have fully proven that this plan will not solve the problem in the school system. What can happen would not solve the problem, but make it worse. By not holding them accountable. Because I have done that there is no way you cannot vote for the neg side.

"I would also like to add that I just realized that my opponent is only 15, according to his profile. If this is true, I say kudos to him. I have never met a 15 year old who had such a firm grasp of political affairs, and the ability to rationally defend their argument. Good show."

Yes I am only 15. I'm a sophmore in high school, I've learned a lot from the debate team. Thank you for the kudos and recognition. You also brought up some great points. It was hard debating you against something Ron Paul believes in, because he is the one I am "supporting" in the presidential election. Ron Paul is great for many, many things, he is a true person, that is what we desperatly need in the white house but this is not a stong point.

Thank you for a great, friendly, and educational debate.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by JasonMc 9 years ago
JasonMc
I would also like to add that I just realized that my opponent is only 15, according to his profile. If this is true, I say kudos to him. I have never met a 15 year old who had such a firm grasp of political affairs, and the ability to rationally defend their argument. Good show.
Posted by JasonMc 9 years ago
JasonMc
Sorry, I didn't my round 3 post up in time.

My opponent claims that, because they know a couple of people that homeschooling didn't work for, that giving parents the option and incentive to home school their kids can't work. Under that logic, public school can't work because I know MULTITUDES of people that the public school system didn't work for.

My opponent argues as if none of the instances which befell a couple of kids who homeschooling didn't work for could ever happen to kids who go to public schools. My opponent then goes on to say that the public school system is as good as any in the world, and then says it's far from the best. Which is it? Anyone who's paying attention can see that our school system is failing our country terribly.

My opponent claimed that I dropped his arguments in round 2 by addressing how the MANY downfalls of the public school system outshines their logic of knowing a couple of kids who homeschooling didn't work for, so anyone who home schools their kids will not be held accountable, and thus it can't work for anyone. To directly address a lack of accountability and giving money to parents, I would say that my opponent needs to research the home school success ratio vs that of a public school and then tell me what works and what doesn't. What about the several issues raised in my argument that my opponent failed to discuss?
Posted by AntiPatriot 9 years ago
AntiPatriot
So you're basing who you should vote for on who is the "strongest" leader? Is that even a quality you can measure? Why not vote BECAUSE someone has good policies? Not because they "look like they could be president". People say, I'm not gonna vote for Paul because he's not going to win.

So... you're not going to vote for him... because he's not going to win.

Or is he not going to win, because you're not gonna vote for him?

Too much of being a president is a popularity contest. I doubt we have EVER had the BEST man capable for the job in the office in their time. The election process is flawed and the winner is never the one w/ the best policies. The purpose of the Republican caucus is to determine who is the most MARKETABLE to beat the Democrats--not who has the best policies. The same if for the Dems. The system is screwed. People are ignorant.
Posted by Matt_Jones 9 years ago
Matt_Jones
You know, I suppose having a Neo-Confederate in office can't be much worse than George W. Bush. I am not too interested nor familiar with Ron Paul's policies. I have watched the debates and if I had to vote for a Republican for Hillary to destroy it would be Paul.

I can not help but like Ron Paul when I watch him. He makes me smile and many of the things he says I find my self nodding in agreement with. However I have a problem with his image.

At debates he seems to be trampled on by the other right wing nazis. He gives it his best to fight back, but in the debate I have seen he is unsuccessful. He does however score points with the facts and arguments he uses. My problem is, I don't consider Ron Paul to be a STRONG leader. I don't consider any one on the Republican side other than McCain to be all that strong. As a Democrat I look to the stances and positions of Obama, Clinton and Edwards and notice little significant discrepancies. I do however notice Hillary as the Strongest candidate. The person I want as President not only because I agree 99% with her on the issues, but because she has the kind of strength we need in a leader. Is she flawless...hardly, I ask who in the political world is, however I feel the Republicans need to pick a nominee who wont be over powered by Clinton, and I don't see any of them passing the test.

Good Luck Ron Paul. I hope you get the nomination!
Posted by fresnoinvasion 9 years ago
fresnoinvasion
http://library.adoption.com...

thats my source, i forgot to add it.
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