The Instigator
Johnicle
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
Xer
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

Debate tournaments have a positive effect on debate.org.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/1/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,752 times Debate No: 11300
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (8)
Votes (8)

 

Johnicle

Pro

I remember people used to get upset when I would post debates as advertisements for understandable reasons. Therefore, I intend to actually use this as a debate, as well as a reason to let people know about the tournament I am running:

http://www.debate.org...

Now to the actual debate...

This is the fourth attempt at a debate tournament run by me. The first one was completed in 9 months, and the other two ended for other reasons. This poses the question, are they even worth it? I believe that they are, for the following reasons:

I. New members are attracted to debate.org
---I'm not sure if anyone has noticed, but when a new tournament comes around, people that no one recognizes come out of no where and participate. This is because some friends of mine only are interested in debate tournaments. Therefore, it is a direct link of debate tournaments that increases the traffic on this site. This is an undeniable benefit.

II. Increased debates
---Ever since the establishment of the forums, debates just aren't as common, nor as important as they used to be. However with debate tournaments, debates, once again, have value to this site.

III. Competitive atmosphere
---My personal favorite reason for having debate tournaments, is the idea of having brackets, elimination rounds, and final rounds. It really adds a edge to it that makes it more enjoyable than just having a regular debate.

In the end, I do feel that debate tournaments have a positive effect on debate.org. If you agree with me, join the tournament, if not, accept the debate!

Thanks!
Xer

Con

I thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate. I expect it to be worthwhile.

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REBUTTALS
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"""""
I. New members are attracted to debate.org
---I'm not sure if anyone has noticed, but when a new tournament comes around, people that no one recognizes come out of no where and participate. This is because some friends of mine only are interested in debate tournaments. Therefore, it is a direct link of debate tournaments that increases the traffic on this site. This is an undeniable benefit.
"""""

a. Appeal to Novelty. [1]

1. X is new.
2. Therefore X better.

1. Members are new.
2. Therefore new members are better.

"""""Therefore, it is a direct link of debate tournaments that increases the traffic on this site."""""

b. Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc [2]

1. A occurs before B.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.

1. Debate tournament occurs before new members.
2. Therefore the debate tournament caused the new members.

"""""
II. Increased debates
---Ever since the establishment of the forums, debates just aren't as common, nor as important as they used to be. However with debate tournaments, debates, once again, have value to this site.
"""""

a. This assumes that more is better. More doesn't necessarily mean something is better.

b. More can be worse. If User A created 69 trillion debates on DDO, your logic would demand that User A behaved in a positive manner. However, Person A's debates would take up too much space and probably be meaningless.

c. You never cited that "debates just aren't as common ... ever since the establishment of forums."

d. Your statement that debates aren't as important as before forums aren't backed up by any logic either.

"""""
III. Competitive atmosphere
---My personal favorite reason for having debate tournaments, is the idea of having brackets, elimination rounds, and final rounds. It really adds a edge to it that makes it more enjoyable than just having a regular debate.
"""""

a. Why is competitiveness positive?

b. Competitiveness can lead to harsh exchange of words or even violence. The more heated a debate, argument or rivalry, the more likely ad hominems or threats will develop.

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CONTENTIONS
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1. Debate tournaments take away time for participants to do other activities.
a. There will be less participation on the forums.
b. There will be less participation on normal debates.
c. Debaters will have less time to read or expand their knowledge in ways to provide a greater breadth to the forums.

2. New members or members who missed sign-ups will be left out. This will lead to sadness or frustration from said members, who might even leave in because of such.

3. Less members on forums and debates creates a void in DDO, which means that loyal members may leave due to the lack of participation. And new members may not come back if they don't see the participation they hoped for on debates and forums.

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SOURCES
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[1] http://www.nizkor.org...
[2] http://www.nizkor.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Johnicle

Pro

Thanks for accepting this debate.

Ia "Appeal to Novelty" -->

1. Debaters that have joined this site due to tournaments range from National Champions, to average Joe's. Many of these members faded after the tournament (perhaps proving that the particular format is popular.) The way that this is done, was mostly because of facebook spreading the word, as well as present members.

2. Appeal to Novelty ought to be applied to major 'new' things. New members come all of the time, therefore, in order for your argument to hold any weight, you have to prove that the new members from these tournaments have a negative effect when compared to the every day new member. Nothing of this sort has been proven.

3. New members increase revenue, give hope for new friendships, and increases the opportunity for debates in the future.

Ib "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" -->

1. Once again, the use of facebook, as well as other sites, aided the spreading of the DDO tournament. Furthermore, some members are only/mostly interested in DDO with tournaments. Here are a few members as proof:

-Korezaan
-birdpiercefan3334
-zakkuchan
-Me

2. Many of these members stuck around until the tournaments went away. There are really two different types of debaters: Casual debaters, and Competitive debaters. This site is built for casual debaters, but it's nice to attract competitive ones as well. Certainly there is a certain amount of competitiveness on this site, but once again, tournaments increase it.

Ia -->
Ib -->

-Neither of these are applied to why tournaments have a negative effect on debate.org. Even if you accept the idea, he doesn't give weight as to why the con side should be preferred.

=

IIa -->
IIb -->

1. I agree that more isn't always better but you never show that debates created as a result of the tournament are worse. Just because it -can- be bad... doesn't mean that it is.

2. "Tournament Debates", as argued before, are better because there is a cumulative purpose. Each debate effects the next, whereas casual debates serve no common goal. Furthermore, it lets the best members shine when they make a deep tournament run.

3. "Life could not be life without competition. It is the vastest, most valuable natural resource anyone could ask for. It fans the flames of inspiration in all of us, it is that small spark of light that brings even the most depressed, laziest teenager to life. To describe it in one word, it is necessity."
--- http://www.helium.com...

IIIa -->
IIIb -->

1. The only reason that harsh words could be exchanged is because of a result of caring so much for what you're doing. Sure there is a cost, but there is also a benefit.

2. The ONLY known exchange of harsh words due to an online debate tournament was when one of the debaters didn't agree with my decision. It bounced off me relatively quickly and I moved on. Therefore, the benefits outweighed the cost.

3. Cross-Apply II 3 ... We need competition.

=

"Contentions"

1 -->

1. This argument focuses on the forums. As of right now, debate tournaments are run through the forums. I myself have been caught looking through other threads while posting something for the tournament.

2. There -could- be less participation, but this participation won't be significant. After all, not everyone participates.

3. Things that went on from the start and finish of the first debate tournament:
- Over 2500 debates were completed (over 95% of which were not because of the tournament)
- Version 3 was released.

2 -->
3 -->

-Again, there will be other activities going on. Mafia won't end due to the debate tournament. And forum and casual debate activity won't end.

=

---As a general argument, my opponent never really gave a direct link as to why debate tournaments have a negative effect on debate.org. He showed a lot of things that -could- happen, but never showed what -does- hap
Xer

Con

The resolution is: Debate tournaments have a positive effect on debate.org. My opponent insisted in the last round that debate tournaments have a negative effect on DDO. This is not true. I don't have to prove anything. My opponent has the burden of proof to prove that debate tournaments have a positive effect on DDO. I only have to negate the resolution. I don't even need contentions to win this debate, I simply need rebuttals.

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REBUTTALS
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Ia1.
>My opponent cites none of this and should thus be discarded. I could just as easily say that debaters have left this site due to tournaments. Without any evidence, this point doesn't hold any weight.

Ia2.
>No, that's not what appeal to novelty is, at all. It doesn't matter what you think appeal to novelty "ought to be applied to" either. I don't have to prove a negative effect for anything. You have to prove a positive effect to something new, or your argument is just an appeal to novelty.

Ia3.
>New members decrease revenue, crush friendships, and decrease the quality of debates. <<
===

"Once again, the use of facebook, as well as other sites, aided the spreading of the DDO tournament."

>Proof? Oh yeah, there is none.

"Furthermore, some members are only/mostly interested in DDO with tournaments. Here are a few members as proof:"

If some members are only interested in debate tournaments, then how are they positive for DDO as a whole? They only contribute to debate tournaments, but you're supposed to be making the argument that they are positive for DDO as a whole.

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1b2.
>Like I said above, if they only stay for the tournaments, then they aren't positive for DDO as a whole. They're neutral at best.

===

"1. Debate tournaments take away time for participants to do other activities.
a. There will be less participation on the forums.
b. There will be less participation on normal debates."

My opponent lets this point stand and says: "Neither of these are applied to why tournaments have a negative effect on debate.org. Even if you accept the idea, he doesn't give weight as to why the con side should be preferred." My opponent forfeits the above and says that there is no negative effect. If there is less participation, of course there will be a negative effect.

===

IIab1.
>My opponent forfeits this point. I don't have to affirm a negative, my opponent has to affirm a positive.

IIab2.
"'Tournament Debates', as argued before, are better because there is a cumulative purpose."
>Uhh, why is something cumulative better?

IIa3.
"Life could not be life without competition."
>Non sequitur. No one likes cheesy quotes, amirite?

===

IIIa1.
"Sure there is a cost, but there is also a benefit."
>Ergo, it is neutral. Point for me.

IIIa2.
"Therefore, the benefits outweighed the cost."
>Because of one specific instance between yourself and someone else? You refute yourself in IIIa1 anyway.

IIIa3.
"We need competition."
>No, no we don't. Especially not forced competition.

==========

C1.1.
"I myself have been caught looking through other threads while posting something for the tournament."
>Confabulation fallacy. Your personal experience isn't an universal rule.

C1.2.
>My opponent forfeits that there might be less participation.

C1.3.
>Un-cited statistics.

C2. C3.
>But of course, activity will go down, because of the lack of participation lost to the debate tournament.

==========

" ---As a general argument, my opponent never really gave a direct link as to why debate tournaments have a negative effect on debate.org. He showed a lot of things that -could- happen, but never showed what -does- hap"
>Like I said above, I don't have to prove anything (unlike you) even though I took it upon myself to do so.

>My opponent used strictly anecdotal evidence and hearsay for his arguments. He cited nothing and failed to prove
Debate Round No. 2
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Johnicle 6 years ago
Johnicle
Here is one right now: http://www.debate.org...

I would try to explain it but it is more thorough in the first post anyway.
Posted by atheistman 6 years ago
atheistman
What exactly is a debate tournament on DDO, can someone enlighten me?
Posted by Johnicle 6 years ago
Johnicle
B/A: Pro
Conduct: Nothing offensive from con. But con's arguments were a lot of things that could happen, not things that will. Also, there were a lot of blips, rather than a constructive focus.
Spelling and Grammar: amirite? Uhh...
Convincing Arguments: Con didn't really look at the big picture of this debate. He had no offense. Sure all that he has to prove is that there is not a positive effect, but if he wants to do that effectively he should be showing when there is a negative effect.
Sources: tied
Posted by Xer 6 years ago
Xer
B/A: Tied/Tied
Conduct: Tied
S&G: Tied
Arguments: CON - Pro failed to cite any of what he said and merely used arguments from personal experience. His whole argument seems more like a marketing ploy for his personal tournament than anything else.
Sources: CON - I used one more. Also, my opponent's argument strongly relied on statistics and evidence, and he had nothing to back it up. My argument was mainly based on logic, and didn't rely on sources.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
I was thinking more along the lines of using the vast amount of definitions for the word 'positive' to play semantics, but okay...
Posted by I-am-a-panda 6 years ago
I-am-a-panda
I suppose it could be argued debate tournaments sap away life from debates outside the tournament, and if all major debaters are in the tournament, make the place a ghost town for non-competitors, possibly driving away new member. Plus, very few people, if any, will want to have debates after competing in a tournament.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
Ooh biased debate.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 6 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Hmmm....quite interesting.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by socialpinko 5 years ago
socialpinko
JohnicleXerTied
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Vote Placed by Xer 6 years ago
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