The Instigator
wjmelements
Pro (for)
Winning
27 Points
The Contender
acer
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points

Debate.org user "Acer" is a socialist and has contradictory views.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
wjmelements
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/9/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,243 times Debate No: 7765
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (9)
Votes (7)

 

wjmelements

Pro

I affirm the resolution.

1. Acer is a socialist.
"The government does not hog the money so much as the rich people do." This is a socialist belief.
"Giving the government money is a much better and safer idea than handing it to the rich" Same here.

2. Acer's views are contradictory.
"If they do not spend their money, the econonmy cannot be stimulated and the status of it will become worse."
So, he wants people to spend money.
"Sales taxes are a very small part of what a person actually pays and in the end, the only benefactors are the store owners. One of the root causes of the depression is the money ending up in only a few peoples hands."
So, he doesn't want people to spend money, because "money {ends} up in only a few peoples hands".
Both opinions expressed are describing the same situation...

In conclusion, the resolution is affirmed.
All quotes taken from: http://www.debate.org...
acer

Con

First I would like to define what a socialist is. He is one that follows socialism. Socialism is defined as follows:

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
http://dictionary.reference.com...

"1. Acer is a socialist.
"The government does not hog the money so much as the rich people do." This is a socialist belief.
"Giving the government money is a much better and safer idea than handing it to the rich" Same here."

The basis on which my opponent calls me a socialist cannot be derived from the definition of socialism, so how is it logical that I am a socialist without following socialism. Also the above facts are derived from common sense, not a political view. Is it not true that the rich get richer. http://ezinearticles.com... . When the rich earn their money, they place it in the bank. When in the bank, it is not used. When money does not go back into the economy, the economy suffers because money is not being exchanged, http://judelfoir.wordpress.com... . It can also be clearly seen that the government does not hog money. If they did, they would be rich and have no debt, but as the case stands, the government is trillions of dollars in debt. Not exactly good, but can clearly say it does not hog money. As I said before, both of my statements are derived from logic, not a political view.

"2. Acer's views are contradictory.
"If they do not spend their money, the economy cannot be stimulated and the status of it will become worse."
So, he wants people to spend money.
"Sales taxes are a very small part of what a person actually pays and in the end, the only benefactors are the store owners. One of the root causes of the depression is the money ending up in only a few peoples hands."
So, he doesn't want people to spend money, because "money {ends} up in only a few peoples hands".
Both opinions expressed are describing the same situation..."

Not really. I said that people should spend their money. It is just who receives the money that is different. The second quote I realize now is a false statement, but they do not contradict. With higher sales taxes, the government gets more money. It was simply a reply to my opponent saying lowering sale taxes were good. It says nowhere that people should not spend, however, it does say that the money that is spent should not all go to one person.

In conclusion, I disprove your resolution because it is not logical.

I thank my opponent again for creating this debate and wait on his reply.
Debate Round No. 1
wjmelements

Pro

My opponent has offerred a definiton of socialism. Socialism is based in the theory that income equality is just and effective. http://petras.lahaine.org...

1. "Is it not true that the rich get richer"
And the poor get richer, and the middle class get richer. With capitalism, everyone gets richer over time as they work and accumulate wealth.

"When in the bank, it is not used."
False. Banks use money to lend to others. When banks have more money to lend, interest rates go down. This works because of the common laws of supply and demand in classical economic theory and acknowledged by John Maynard Keynes in "The General Theory", even though Keynes and classical economists have disputed the overall effect of loanable funds on the economy.
Further, the 'rich' invest in companies, supplying them with the funds they need to expand and grow, which Keynes also agreed with the classical economists about. http://www.marxists.org... http://www.theshortrun.com...
My opponent's socialist arguments against income inequality are socialistic as well as based in fallacy.
Interestingly, he sourced a capitalist who, when quoted in context, was referring to the harm that government regulation and taxation does to the economy.

My opponent's view are collectivist because he believes that there is a class system and that the rich have money because the poor do not. This is false, a generation of the zero-sum fallacy, as described by economist Thomas Sowell in his book, "Economic Facts and Fallacies".

So, my opponents are not "derived from logic", but a political view and bias against the evils of the rich and the grace of the government. This is a bias of socialists, which believe that all people should earn the same.

Further, my opponent believes that government should have more wealth. The expansion of government is a socialist view as well.

2. "Not really. I said that people should spend their money. It is just who receives the money that is different."
Actually, when people spend money, it goes to those rich people that socialists hate.

"The second quote I realize now is a false statement, but they do not contradict."

My opponent's argument that they do not contradict is:
"It was simply a reply to my opponent saying lowering sale taxes were good. It says nowhere that people should not spend, however, it does say that the money that is spent should not all go to one person."
Actually, that is exactly what you said:
"Sales taxes are a very small part of what a person actually pays and in the end, the only benefactors are the store owners." http://www.debate.org...
My opponent has argued that people should not spend money, because money goes to the store owners. He argues that this is a problem because:
"One of the root causes of the depression is the money ending up in only a few peoples hands." http://www.debate.org...
This is also false, as my opponent has conceded, but the views he expressed were contradictory.

"It says nowhere that people should not spend, however, it does say that the money that is spent should not all go to one person."
In all situations, this is false. You still hold this belief, even though you have conceded that it is false. This is clearly contradictory.

The resolution is affirmed.
acer

Con

acer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
"And Will, I have learned the error of my ways and see how stupid democrats are and I strongly disagree with national healthcare (how stupid can you get?). But I am still undecided on Mininum Wage. I will debate Pro and you can teach me."

He's been converted.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Mr. Smith, the point is that he doesn't think he is...
Posted by mongeese 8 years ago
mongeese
Nobody cares, but that doesn't really matter.
Posted by Mr_smith 8 years ago
Mr_smith
Who cares if acer is a socialist? You're just picking on selective quotes he said and giving them a socialist slant. Its stupid and pointless. Besides, even if he was a socialist, that would be his right.
Posted by mongeese 8 years ago
mongeese
Why, yes, I do. But if you knew, it would be hilarious.
Posted by acer 8 years ago
acer
Nope, do you mind telling me?
Posted by mongeese 8 years ago
mongeese
Acer, do you happen to know who Judel Morrforus Foir is?

You're setting yourself up to get owned. You probably should read Economics 101.
Posted by mongoose 8 years ago
mongoose
Exactly why I refused it.
Posted by mongeese 8 years ago
mongeese
I think mongoose would rather be PRO than CON in this debate...
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Epicism 8 years ago
Epicism
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by crackofdawn_Jr 8 years ago
crackofdawn_Jr
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Tatarize 8 years ago
Tatarize
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Zachattack 8 years ago
Zachattack
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by acer 8 years ago
acer
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
wjmelementsacerTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60