The Instigator
Bob13
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Soldier_4Christ
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

December Tournament Round 2: Jews are going to heaven.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Soldier_4Christ
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/11/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 653 times Debate No: 84833
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

Bob13

Pro

Definitions

Jew- a member of the religious group that originated from the Israelites and Hebrews of the the Ancient Near East.

Heaven- (define this for me, I'm not sure how you would define it)

Rules

Use the Bible as a source. Do not use other sources except for interpretations of the Bible.

The burden of proof is shared.

The round structure will be:

1. Acceptance

2. Arguments (no rebuttals)

3. Rebuttals/Defense

4. Rebuttals/Defense

5. Conclusions ("I won this debate because...")

Thanks to Hayd for hosting the tournament.

Please accept the debate, and remember to define "heaven".
Soldier_4Christ

Con

I accept the debate.

Heaven: The place where God lives and where good people go after they die according to the Christian faith.
Debate Round No. 1
Bob13

Pro

"A hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved." (Romans 11:25-26)

"Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." (2 Kings 2:11)

"Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea, 'Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of God.' I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, 144,000 marked from every tribe of the Israelites." (Revelation 7:2-4)
Soldier_4Christ

Con

Thank you for taking the debate and supplying/accepting the prior definitions.



I would like to clarify that my position is that if you are a Jew, or anybody else for that matter, there is only one way into heaven, Jesus. There will be some former Jews who convert to Christianity and get saved. There are many Jews who went to heaven before Jesus came with the new covenant. However, as per the debate title, I will not argue whether or not Jews have ever gotten into heaven, as that would directly contradict what I believe. But rather, I will argue that "Jews ARE going to heaven" is incorrect, as that implies that if you are a Jew that means you WILL get into heaven, NOW in the present tense.

The Jewish faith applies to those who study (and hold sacred) the following texts:
Tanakh: the Old Testament
Talmud: the "oral Torah"
Midrash: a large body of rabbinical sermons compiled between the fourth and sixth centuries, but continues to present day
Responsa: a collection of answers to specific questions on Jewish law
Zohar: the central text of Kabbalah, the mystical branch of Judaism
http://www.religionfacts.com...

Now let's see if the 2 are actually compatible, and if being Jewish will get you into heaven...



According to the Jewish faith:
"She (Mary) who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." (Sanhedrin 106a)
"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324)
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725)
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504)
"Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old." (Sanhedrin 106)
Jesus (Yeshu the Nazarene) was executed because he practiced sorcery. (Sanhedrin 43a)
Jesus is being boiled in "hot excrement." (Gittin 57a)
Those who read the New Testament will have no portion in the world to come. (Sanhedrin 90a)
Jews must destroy the books of the Christians (New Testament). (Shabbath 116a)



Interesting... Let's see what Christianity has to say about these things:

Luke 1:27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luke 1:34-35
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Colossians 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Philippians 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:




According to most modern rabbinical scholars, Judaism does not believe that mankind is evil or sinful by nature, and therefore, has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or literal hell.


So on the one hand (Judaism), we have the denial of Christ's deity and the general blasphemy of Him. On the other hand (Christianity), there is only one way into heaven, Jesus.

1. Judaism denies and blasphemes Jesus (also Mary and the New Testament).
2. To believe on Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved (get into heaven as supposed to hell).

Therefore, Jews (and anybody else) will either convert (believe on Jesus Christ) and be saved, or will remain Jewish (or any other false faith / lack of faith) and be damned.

The Jews throughout history have been in and out of favor with God according to their attitude and loyalty, etc. God has punished and rewarded them accordingly. To those who would say that you could do some kind of DNA test to see if you're saved somehow because of Abraham I leave these sobering words from the Bible:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.




And on a side note, do Jews not use the supposed "star of David" as their symbol and on their flag?




Debate Round No. 2
Bob13

Pro

According to the resolution, I must prove that, according to the Bible, at least some Jews are, in modern times, going to heaven.

Now for my rebuttals:

Your first claim is that Jewish beliefs found in their sacred texts say horrible things about Jesus and Mary, so Jews can't go to heaven. This is only true if belief in Jesus is the only way to be saved. Christians who say this often quote the following verse:

"Jesus said to him [Thomas], 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.'" (John 14:6)

That verse, however, says nothing about belief. Other verses say that good deeds get you to heaven:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have good works?" (James 2:14)

"[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works." (Romans 2:6-7)

Jews can be good people, so according to the Bible, they can go to heaven.

Your next argument is about geneology. That is not relevant to the debate because, according to my definition of "Jew", I am referring to Jews as a religious and not an ethnic group.

As for your last argument, it is based on a conspiracy theory that must be proven for your argument to be valid.

Have fun with your rebuttals!
Soldier_4Christ

Con

What is the resolution for a debate entitled "Jews are going to heaven"?
Well we have to provide evidence that if you are a Jew you either are
A) going to heaven
or
B) not going to heaven

The topic isn't "Are some Jews going to heaven?" or "If Jews have 'good works' are they going to heaven?"
In other words, does being a Jew get you into heaven? Of course not. Would it even matter if there were "good works"? NO.
I thought I should clarify that, however, as I've stated, even if that was the title and resolution, it wouldn't matter. I will refute it anyways as, otherwise, there would be nothing at all to address.

I had already addressed the fact that to be saved (go to heaven), there is only one way, Jesus. It couldn't be any clearer. I will repost some of the verses which completely clarify this for us in case anybody missed them. Unless there is some kind of credible refutation for all of these verses that make it crystal clear, then we will have to conclude that salvation is by faith (in Jesus) and grace, something we don't even deserve, and works alone cannot save you. Works can be good but the point is that they ARE NOT the key to our salvation.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Pay close attention to this one, as it really COULDN'T be ANY clearer...
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Here's another VERY clear one...
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And another one...
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As far as the verses my opponent brought up:

Matthew 7:21 however, for context I will include the following 2 verses, which further prove my point.
So Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This applies to fake Christians and Jews. Notice that He even states that they claim to have "wonderful works", but He answers "I never knew you." These are chilling words you don't want to hear. However, if you truly believe on Jesus Christ then He would never say such a thing.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Notice that he says "though a man SAY he hath faith". What he's saying is that he calls into question if your faith is true if you have no works at all to show for it. Basically, that true faith and good deeds go hand in hand. If somebody truly has faith and love for the Lord you wouldn't expect them to carry on as if nothing changed whatsoever. He further clarifies this throughout the whole chapter. He never says that Jesus isn't the way to salvation, ever. I have offered many verses however which implicitly state exactly the answer to the question with no room for denial or misinterpretation.

Romans 2:6-7
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Yes, everybody will be judged according to their deeds. Even Christians. However, SOME people (real Christians) will be forgiven for their sins, through Jesus Christ alone. If you don't believe on Jesus Christ then you will have no forgiveness but rather wrath. My opponent needs to not only provide credible, sensible rebuttals for the verses I provided, but needs to provide verses that implicitly state that if you do "good things" it doesn't matter if you deny Jesus, you still go to heaven. There is no such verse. It would defeat and contradict the whole Gospel message, which is salvation through Jesus Christ. Any other "teaching" is heresy and not true Christianity. As per the definition of heaven which states it is the Christian (true) version and thus has only one entrance, Jesus Christ.

I hope this all helps to clarify things, not only for my opponent, but for anybody who happens to read this. To think you can work your way into heaven is the same mistake they were making all the way back to the Tower of Babel. Actually even further back, to Cain and Abel! God asked them to make a sacrifice and said what He wanted. Abel obeyed and pleased God. Cain disobeyed and thought he could pull it off with his work (gardening/farming) and displeased God. The people at the Tower of Babel instead of turning to the Lord and seeking Him the right way, they figured they could build something to get into heaven by themselves. The solution is simple, believe on Jesus Christ and accept His payment for your sins and forgiveness. Accept the mercy He has for those that seek Him. Repay Him by changing your life and being the light and salt of the earth. Do your best and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. God bless.
Debate Round No. 3
Bob13

Pro

The resolution "Jews are going to heaven" does not specify why they go to heaven. That is up for debate.
Here are the verses you used:
John 8:24
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
If you look at the context of the verse, you will see that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, who are notorious for hypocrisy. They would often preach but not believe what they are preaching. Jesus is telling them specifically, not non-Christians in general, that they have two choices; they can either continue to preach but not have good works, or they can believe in him and have good works. The latter would get them to heaven. This same situation would not apply to a Jew who was not like the Pharisees.
Romans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
This verse states that faith can save you, but it does not say that you need faith to be saved.
John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
This verse says nothing about believing in Jesus, it could be referring to following his teachings by having good works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
I looked at this one, and for a moment I thought I had lost; but look more closely at the phrasing. It begins with, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves," meaning that faith saves you; you don't save yourself. It then says, "It is the gift of God: not of works," meaning that works do not earn salvation by themselves; God will save you because he is merciful. If you read the rest of the passage, it talks a lot about God's mercy, so you can infer that this verse is referring to God's mercy. You can conclude from this verse that God saves people because of their faith and/or good works.
John 3:36
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
This one, it turns out, is a misquote. The verse actually says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." This means that if you have faith, you will be saved, but if you don't have good works, you will not be saved. It does not say that if you don't have faith, you will not be saved. Of course, I have to prove that my quotation is more accurate than yours. I looked at your profile and I saw that you are a Baptist, which means that your denomination of Christianity formed during the Reformation. I am using the Catholic Bible, which is the original version. Baptists and other Protestant Christians left out several books and chapters and changed some verses.
Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
This verse talks about justification. I don't see how that has anything to do with going to heaven.
Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
This is an incomplete verse. It uses the words "neither" and "other" without any hint as to what it is referring to.
Here are the verses I used:
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
You said that their "wonderful works" weren't enough to obtain salvation. The word "wonderful" as used in this passage was most likely not meant as "extremely good"; it was used to be synonomous with "astonishing". Prophesying and driving out demons are done for attention and praise when not done for a good reason. Wonderful works would have to fit in with those two or the passage would not make sense. Jesus is saying here that pretending to do good works will not save you.
James 2:14
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
You said this verse means that when someone says he has faith, but does not show it, he does not actually have faith. However, it asks, "Can faith save him?" which means that he has faith, but it is not enough.
Romans 2:6-7
"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life."
You say here that non-Christians will not obtain forgiveness. I have already disproven all your arguments to support that claim. It clearly says that every man, not just Christians, will be judged according to their deeds. Since many Jews have good deeds, Jews are going to heaven.
Do not make any new arguments in this round. Construct your rebuttals, then prepare for conclusions.
Soldier_4Christ

Con

"The resolution "Jews are going to heaven" does not specify why they go to heaven."
Yes, if you could show how ALL Jews have some kind of characteristic that means they go to heaven, that would be enough. However, again, works without Jesus are worthless in God's eyes. Not to mention there is no verse given to say what "good works" are, that they alone can get you into heaven, how many you would need, etc. Just an assertion that it would help somehow despite the verses clearly saying otherwise.

"John 8:24
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
If you look at the context of the verse, you will see that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees..."

It's irrelevant if Jesus was talking to a Pharisee or not. The message is universal. Jesus didn't make one set of rules for Pharisees and another for common Jews and yet another for gentiles, etc. No, it's an easy to follow single set of rules. Many books of the Bible were originally letters to existing churches back then. So does that mean we can't read or learn from them? Or that it doesn't apply to us because our name isn't on it? Nothing in the Bible is directed personally to the reader. In other words, if you think that it will say "And thus I say only to Jack, nobody but Jack." then you won't walk away with a single message. No, clearly, what is written, is for all to read and learn from. If there were such a verse that really only applied to a specific person or group it would be made clear and wouldn't require some form of special interpretation. Jesus didn't come to trick people and that is why this verse lines up perfectly with every other verse I presented.

Another thing I will point out is, it says the audience is "the Jews" at this point in the chapter and not Pharisees like my opponent asserted (not that it would matter). So Jesus made it quite clear as He was speaking to Jews when He said this. It's the same recurring message throughout the Gospel.
I will make this verse a mathematical equation:
sin + death - Jesus = hell
sin + death + Jesus = heaven
Not
sin + works + death - Jesus = heaven
So, unless you could prove that no Jew is capable of sinning, ever, then the conclusion is they need Jesus just like anybody else.

"they can either continue to preach but not have good works, or they can believe in him and have good works. The latter would get them to heaven. "
It never even mentioned preaching OR works. Only needing Jesus because of sin to not go to hell or "die in your sin". In the whole chapter it never says anything about preaching or works even.

"Romans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
This verse states that faith can save you, but it does not say that you need faith to be saved."

So my opponent concedes that faith CAN save you, but doesn't admit that you NEED faith, despite the verses saying otherwise. Where are the verses that say that works alone can save you? Especially without Jesus...

"John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
This verse says nothing about believing in Jesus, it could be referring to following his teachings by having good works."

This verse is really clear. You would have to put your own spin on it to come to some different conclusion. If Jesus was standing right there saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.", it would be silly to say, well, He doesn't mean that I need Him at all. I can just use my own works to do it. I don't see how anybody could possibly come to that conclusion. Notice He doesn't say, "I am a way, some men come to the Father without me." That's almost the exact opposite of what He said. Nor does He say, "I am a way, men come to the Father by their works (even if they deny Me)". No, He specifically says He is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE.

"Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
meaning that faith saves you; you don't save yourself. It then says, "It is the gift of God: not of works," meaning that works do not earn salvation by themselves; God will save you because he is merciful. If you read the rest of the passage, it talks a lot about God's mercy, so you can infer that this verse is referring to God's mercy. You can conclude from this verse that God saves people because of their faith and/or good works."

"faith saves you; you don't save yourself"
Right, we are saved by faith through grace. In other words, faith is what saved us, which we get by God's grace and not because we deserve it. Just like works don't have anything to do with it "lest any man should boast". That right there tells you that faith/God's grace get's the credit and not one person will be able to boast that they are there because of their works. Also, if it WERE through works, then it would follow that you could make the case that you DID deserve it, and thus removing the credit from faith/God's grace and giving that person the means to boast.
"You can conclude from this verse that God saves people because of their faith and/or good works."
No, it says you are saved through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. Not and/or, choose your way in.

"I am using the Catholic Bible, which is the original version. Baptists and other Protestant Christians left out several books and chapters and changed some verses."
Who told you that? First of all, Catholicism is a works based false religion. So of course they have changed the text to line up with their phony doctrine. Just like a Jehovah's Witness fake Bible will remove the deity of Christ, and so on. That being said, Catholics would not officially agree with your stance that you don't need Jesus and that works alone could save you.
This link refutes that there are any changes from the actual legitimate Bible canon. The only additional material used in a Catholic Bible are books that aren't part of the Hebrew canon. It isn't inspired, so it isn't canon. Just like the apocrypha isn't canon and you wouldn't expect to find it in a legitimate Bible. There are many reasons to distrust the Catholic system, however that is a whole different debate. I will just point out that the Catholic church up until only recently did everything in latin. Everybody was forbidden to try to read the Bible or to translate it. They didn't want people to know what it really said. People were burned alive for teaching the Lord's prayer even...
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

Even after all that, even if we grant this corrupted irrelevant version as being correct, it still proves my point.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."
If you believe in Jesus you go to heaven. If you "disobey" you go to hell. Not believing in Jesus is disobeying the first part of the same sentence. Just like all the other verses, it's not even implied that works alone are any good for getting into heaven. You'd have to make it say the opposite.

"Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
This verse talks about justification. I don't see how that has anything to do with going to heaven."

Justification, in Christian theology, is God's act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time declaring a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice.
https://en.wikipedia.org...(theology)

How does it not have EVERYTHING to do with it? Justification is salvation, it is the penalty of sin (hell) being removed through Jesus. Basically it is saying, "Man is not saved/forgiven by works, but by faith on Jesus,... for by works shall no flesh be saved/forgiven.

"Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
This is an incomplete verse. It uses the words "neither" and "other" without any hint as to what it is referring to."

Are you claiming to not understand that this is saying you can only be saved by Jesus? Did you have some problem with context? Does it not line up with all of the rest of the Gospel message? Or did they throw some kind of curveball and never explain themselves?

"Matthew 7:21-23"
Again, this only would apply to somebody that He could say, "I never knew you" to. If you have faith in Jesus this would never apply to you, however, if you plan on using only works you're going to get a nasty response like, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"James 2:14"
"Can faith save him?" which means that he has faith, but it is not enough.
Here's what it's saying put simply. If a person says he has faith, but shows otherwise, will that supposed faith save him? Any other interpretation is to ignore the plethora of verses which lay it out very easily. There is not 1 single verse that implies you don't need Jesus, nor that works alone can cut it. I have showed many verses that show that YES, true faith IS THE WAY to salvation alone. Not fake faith, true faith in Jesus.

"Romans 2:6-7
I have already disproven all your arguments to support that claim. "
No, you asserted things that say the opposite of the Gospel message. Even the Catholic source doesn't help with the main issue at hand... Do you need to believe on Jesus? Of course! I already explained this. Everybody gets judged and their deeds brought out for everyone to see. From there, you either get saved or you aren't forgiven. You need Jesus to be forgiven.
Debate Round No. 4
Bob13

Pro

This is the conclusion round. Con should not read this until he has finished his.

John 8:24

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
As I pointed out, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees when he said this, not to the Jews. Con says that the message is universal, but since he has not tried to prove that with a Bible passage, I do not need to refute it. Con then says that Jesus was talking to the Jews, not the Pharisees. The whole chapter can be found here: http://www.catholic.org...

Verse 3 says he was talking to the Pharisees, so I succeeded in refuting this argument.

Romans 10:9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

As I said before, this verse says that faith can save you, but it does not say that you need faith to be saved. Con responds to this by contradicting me without even attempting to prove his claim, so I succeeded in refuting this argument.

John 14:6

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Con says this verse is clear. He says that it doesn't say, "I am a way, some men come to the father without me." That is a strawman. I never said people come to the father without him. I said people come to the father by his teachings. Con's interpretation was that people come to the father through belief in him. The verse says "me" not "belief in me" or "following my teachings", so neither of us proved anything. Since this was Con's argument and he failed to prove it, it was unsuccessful.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Con claims that the verse says you are saved through faith, not of works. However, the grammatical error there is enough to prove that false. According to Con, you are saved THROUGH faith, not OF works. It wouldn't make sense to say, "You are saved of works." Therefore, I was right all along and "It is the gift of God: not of works", meaning that this argument of Con's was not successful. It never said works do not save you. It says God saves you because of his mercy.

John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

Con uses a biased source to "prove" that Catholics changed the original Bible. I will clear this up with a source that does not favor one Christian denomination: http://www.christianbiblereference.org... clearly explains how the Protestants changed the Bible, so my version of the verse is correct.

Con proceeds to say that even if the Catholic version is correct, it still proves his point. He claims that not believing in Jesus is disobeying the first part of the sentence; however, the sentence is a statement and not a command, so it can not be obeyed or disobeyed. Con's argument here failed.

Galatians 2:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

For purposes you will understand later, I am going to respond to this argument after I have concluded the others.

Acts 4:12

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Con claims that this verse is talking about Jesus, but since it does not mention Jesus or any alternate names for him, it can be assumed that Con is either lying or just not being specific.

Conclusion of Con's arguments

I have proven all of Con's arguments to be unsuccessful except for Galatians 2:16, which I will explain later. My own arguments are next:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I used this verse to prove that having he who "doeth the will" of Jesus "shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Con says that this only applies to certain people, but since he has not proven that, my argument still stands.

James 2:14

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

This verse clearly states that faith without works is worthless. Con responds by saying his arguments prove my argument to be false, but since I have already proven his arguments to be unsuccessful (except for Galatians 2:16, which I will refute later), his rebuttal is invalid.

Romans 2:6-7

"[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works."

Con claims that only Christians will be judged according to their works, despite the verse saying "everyone". Even if my other arguments failed, this one would be enough proof because it says plainly that everyone, including Jews, will be judged according to their works, and those with good works will acheive eternal life. Since some Jews have good works, some Jews will go to heaven. That proves the resolution to be true. Jews are going to heaven; they aren't all going to heaven, but some are, so Con's claims about the resolution are false, and I win.

Now I will finally refute Galatians 2:16.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 2:6-7 has already proven that works are all that is needed to save someone. "Justified" as used in this passage must mean something other than the Christain theological definition.

Conclusion of my arguments and Con's Galatians 2:16 argument

Romans 2:6-7 has proven the resolution and refuted Con's argument.

Vote Pro!

Soldier_4Christ

Con

My opponent failed to show how either all Jews have a characteristic that gets them into heaven OR that they never sin, so therefore, do not have to pay the price for sin (hell). My opponent also failed to show a verse that says you don't need Jesus, what good works even are, or that works are good enough by themselves. None of it was even implied let alone actually stated in any way we could deem to be conclusive or definitive. I stated several verses which leave no room for error or misinterpretation. They all explicitly prove my point. My stance did not require any kind of strange or fanciful interpretation, especially one that completely contradicts and opposes the Christian (Gospel) message.

I would venture to say that most atheists/nonbelievers even know that Jesus is considered by Christians to be the Messiah or Saviour. So what does that tell you in and of itself? Why is he our saviour if you can blaspheme Him and it has nothing to do with salvation even? Why do we have to use illogical interpretations, ignore verses, add to verses things they don't even say, take his word for it that it's true since no verse was provided that actually says that, and so on to support my opponent's stance? Well, again, because you have to completely ignore and contradict the whole point and message of the New Testament. So yeah, if you want to throw out the whole message and make it null and void while adding your own spin on it, then yeah, you can come to almost any conclusion, such as you don't need Jesus to go to heaven. Just don't call it the legitimate Bible message...

I noticed from reading the prior conclusion (which attempts to slip in last minute refutations/rebuttals) that many false statements were made. Saying I conceded this and said that, when I did no such thing. Pretending like it's a mystery what is being said when it doesn't go well, etc. Let me remake this very clear for anybody reading:

If you are a Pharisee, a Jew, a man, a woman, old or young, big or small... if you are a human being, there is one way to be saved, Jesus. By believing on Jesus Christ (having faith in Jesus). Salvation is a gift of God's grace that we don't deserve, however, through (faith in) Jesus we are justified (saved). If you go with my opponent's stance then... why bother having the New Testament at all? If you don't need Jesus then why on earth did the early church fathers suffer a martyr's death because of their faith (Christianity)? They certainly weren't being martyred because of good works. And if my opponent's stance is correct then that is the same as saying that they died for nothing. They could've just preached the need for good works and not been persecuted. They could've just defined for themselves what good works are and put their faith in that (themselves) instead. Except, God is who defines morals and what is or isn't good works. God is who decides how you can get into heaven. Fortunately, faith in Jesus (the actual method of salvation) is much easier than trying to follow some vague, undefined, unverified, and false path to salvation.

Why did my opponent reference the corrupt Catholic version when they wouldn't agree with that stance either? It's almost as if it's just a subjective matter to my opponent, picking and choosing what the message/interpretation should be, and not the actual legitimate standard/authority (Bible) we have to go by. Why source the material but present a whole different contradicting interpretation? In other words, why would you say that the Catholic source is really good and reliable but then contradict the doctrine that they hold? It's not just Catholics and Protestants either. ALL Christians who know what they're talking about know that you need Jesus to be saved. Some may put more emphasis on needing certain works and/or rites but if you notice they don't say you can deny Jesus and be considered good. Of course there are a few renegades that are false prophets and looking to make a buck out there. The ones you typically see on tv with the feel good message regardless of contradicting the true doctrine/teachings. They don't have any authority though and could care less about your soul, but rather they're after your money.

We have 2 choices, we can either A) trust what is written in the Bible and what Jesus Himself said, or, B) trust that my opponent knows better or has more authority than Jesus. Not to mention the Gospel writers and the Bible as a whole (which was deemed to be the only credible source).

The letter J will reflect what Jesus says, the letter O will reflect my opponent's stance:

J: I am THE way; If you believe on Me you will be saved.
O: That is only 1 way, you can figure out others.

J: If you don't believe in Me you will die in your sin
O: Nah, you're good. Just figure out what good deeds are and do that instead.

J; You are saved through faith and grace, not by works, otherwise, people could boast.
O: Nope. Works are the key and do the trick. Jesus is pointless.

J: If you believe on me you go to heaven, if you don't you go to hell.
O: Well I can use a corrupt Bible translation to pretend like that wasn't the point and what was said, ignoring their stance on it and how it lines up perfectly with the various other verses.

J: You aren't saved by works but by faith in Me.
O: I will redefine/misunderstand justification so that it suits me and doesn't destroy my whole stance.

J: There is no salvation except through Me.
O: This must be a lie... Why would the New Testament be talking about Jesus? It's probably some alternate mystery person...

J: Some will say, "but what about my good works?", and I will respond, "I never knew you".
O: If you have (undefined) good works alone then you've done the will of the Father and you'll get into heaven.

J: What good is it to claim to have faith and your actions show otherwise?
O: You need works alone to get into heaven.

J: I will judge everybody according to their deeds. (All will be found guilty of sin and need faith and grace to be saved.)
O: Works are the ticket into heaven. You don't need to be saved.

I would suggest my opponent learn to use context and rational thought to come to conclusions when examining the Bible. Then the obvious things wouldn't be overlooked about what the message is and who it applies to. It was unfortunate that it even came to pretending like it wasn't clear and I might be lying. It will be an even more unfortunate situation for anybody who expected forgiveness and access to heaven solely based on their supposed good deeds. For the record, I would rather just lose the debate than lie about a matter such as this, with such vast importance and consequence, but I guess that's just me. May God bless and shine the light of truth on anybody reading this.
Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Dragon_of_Christ 10 months ago
Dragon_of_Christ
The Jews are going to heaven.

I'll debate you.
Posted by Bob13 1 year ago
Bob13
@Midnight1131 I understand now.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Yeah I missed your comment. Anyways, this quote you said, "Everyone will be judged according to their deeds" doesn't state anything about not needing to accept Jesus. To win you had to have been able to refute all of your opponent's quotes about needing Jesus to get in.
Posted by Bob13 1 year ago
Bob13
So you're not going to respond anymore? You're not willing to change an insufficient vote?
Posted by Bob13 1 year ago
Bob13
My quote said, "Everyone will be judged according to their deeds." This proves that good works are the way to heaven.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
For one of your quotes to trump his they would've actually had to state that "you don't need Jesus to get into heaven." Con providing a quote that does say "Jesus is the only way," holds more weight than just a quote that says "you need good works."
Posted by Bob13 1 year ago
Bob13
What about my quote that even more clearly proves that you don't need Jesus to get into heaven?
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Ok I see the confusion. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in my RFD, but Con only needed one quote which showed that you need to accept Jesus to get into heaven. At this point the BOP is fully on Con [in my view] because he's the one that needed to show that there isn't any other way. This is why I only looked at his quotes, and both of your arguments concerning those quotes, because at that point it was only those quotes which could win the debate. Sorry for the confusion over the R3 quotes.
Posted by Bob13 1 year ago
Bob13
No they're not. You only talk about Con's R2 quotes.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Read my RFD again, those are the only quotes I talk about.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Bob13Soldier_4ChristTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD IN COMMENTS - This is a vote from the Voter's Union. If you would like to join or would like a debate voted on, contact me, Donald.Keller, or Whiteflame.