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Deism / Agnostic Theism should replace modern religion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/28/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 318 times Debate No: 87352
Debate Rounds (4)
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Hello, I believe we shouldn't ascend from the dogma of religion to the ever growing dogma of gnostic atheism and fallacious reasoning. I believe we must have a middle ground by utilising inductive reasoning to determine the existence of at least one undefined creator. But, we must also leave modern religion to the sands of time for a better future and remain skeptical.

Con must show me that religion still has it's place in a modern rational world.


Agnostic Theism: The belief that at least one diety exists but the basis of the proposition is inherently unknowable due to the limited scope of reality of humans or other reasons.

Deism: belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Allow me to express my appreciation to Saberen for the opportunity to engage in this debate.

I must respectfully disagree based on the irrefutable fact that humanity has never been IN religion to ascend from? I mean to ascend from something one must have been in it Right? At least 90-95% of humanity holds no loyalty to a God of any kind " Right? An astounding 98% of those who Deny that God exist have never actually looked for God. Quite the contrary, scan through the totality of the 7,000 plus debates voiced just on debate org, and you will see that ALL of them emphatically deny God as unproven, stating, prove he exists? You see they won"t look themselves, they want others to do all the work, but until someone else can prove God exists, they don"t want to hear it! Even science allows input but only if you do not inject the supernatural as a way of it's occurrence. If you cannot have God investigated IN Science how are you to show scientific evidence? Nobodies looking!

God says to all humanity: Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So yes ". Every soul on earth is in fact being held accountable for their belief or lack thereof!

Inductive reasoning? Look, we have DNA and Atom. DNA is undisputedly the building blocks of Life, everyone knows it, and no one has a problem with it. They acknowledge " at least the intelligent ones, that it is 3 dimensional 4 bit code, that is so far advanced that not even the greatest human minds, can create one from scratch. It is found in all organic, biological, and microscopic things in the whole of creation.

The Atom: Check it out, this thing is what the entirety of earth, and its creation is comprised of. But here"s the clincher "" it is MOSTLY empty space ". Did you get that? You cannot physical touch an Atom, yet everything you ride, fly and walk on is created by these trillions upon trillions of tiny particles that zoom this way and that at incredible speeds ".. wow, super advanced stuff that our top mathematical minds have still to decipher.

Do you know not a sole on this planet is WILLING to even imply that God created it ". I mean yeah it"s mathematical, yeah its super advanced, yeah it"s going to take mankind a million years to figure out, but nooooo couldn"t possibly have come from God? Hence rejecting all supernatural reasoning? How is THAT even remotely science! And How in the world do you expect to reach people with such views, ignorance abounds, solely for lack of desire to look?

If you can"t get people to acknowledge the Real God how in the world are you going to get them to agree on one that is patently False. The only reason they don"t know the Real one is that they want to live their lives by their own rules, not under the authority of the real God, much less any other.

Gods definition (oxford) 1.(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

I mean you"ve gotta submit for Him to rule, Right? No submission no supreme being " Right?

Agnostic Theism: The belief that at least one diety exists but the basis of the proposition is inherently unknowable due to the limited scope of reality of humans or other reasons.

My response: This revolves around the premise that man is the sum of all knowledge, and as such is the ultimate judge of what is real or false. This is flawed in that as shown in nature, a singularly advanced intelligent being , put into play lifes creation that scientist the world over substantiate that it contains intelligible code, code that they themselves can see, follow, and map, by the use of highly advanced supercomputers. This is NOT a deity that is unknowable, it is a species that demonstrates enormous ignorance to what lies plainly before their eyes, this is not a people who suffer from agnostic theism ". They suffer from stupidity!

Deism: belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation

My response. To exclude supernatural revelation is to eradicate the viability of all data. You stacked the deck in favor of presenting data that cannot exceed the levels of human reasoning ".. okay if Human reasoning was proven to be the ultimate in reasoning ".. unfortunately as I have pointed out, 99.9% of the greatest minds cannot see past their nose, and have literally had to change theory after theory after theory as new information is presented. That"s called guessing in most cultures " only science calls them facts. So basically your saying everyone can play but white marbles are not allowed to get points ...... whose gonna want to play?

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

My response. 5-10 percent of the world practices the beliefs they have in God. To believe is to deliberately live in accordance with your belief, not only when it suits you but at all times. Example you believe that fire burns, so you"re not going to stick your hand in it ".. Why because you believe it will burn you. That means you"re not going to deviate from that belief, you are strictly adhering to that belief. You are in FACT a Believer!
Debate Round No. 1


First, religion has been around for an extremely long time. So far back, it can't be recorded[1] And the concept of having a lack of belief never really took off until very recently [2]. I have no idea where you got the number that "At least 90-95% of humanity holds no loyalty to a God of any kind" What do you mean by this and where is your source? currently, the world is about 84% religious [3]. You cannot use such a small entity like to try and prove that very little belong to an organised religion. That's an argumentum ad populum fallacy and a facile argument at best.

I don't understand your argument for the second paragraph. I will not assume what you are trying to prove with the fact that there are DNA and atoms does not prove the relevance of modern religion.

Supernatural Reasoning is an oxymoron.

I don't have to submit to anything unless your god comes down personally and tell me to.

Unless you can study this "creator" and collect empirical data on it it either doesn't exist or is above the metaphysics and above our comprehension. You've provided no evidence that your god created the universe.

Science is based off inductive and deductive reasoning and coming to conclusions based off empiricism. Science is what we have to study the natural world. It is based off axioms. Reason itself is based off axioms but you ironically are using reason to structure somewhat coherent arguments. So yes, we are, in a way, guessing. But you couldn't do better.

I would prefer if you would write your arguments in a more formal and coherent manor without using flash words or euphemisms. I will await your rebuttle.

Sources: [1] [2] [3]


You cannot speak intelligibly on something for which you have no knowledge base. You cannot speak on religion unless you have personal knowledge of religion, you cannot call fallacy that which you have not studied. You simply do not know God exists because you have personally never sought Him. The 84% of religious people you cite could clearly make an argument, because they have been involved in religion studied it, lived it, but YOU? No. It is precisely because you personally have NO knowledge of God that you do not understand the 90/95%. If you go to church regularly you"ll begin to understand the high numbers. You my friend make fallacy relevant because you make a decree based on a complete and total lack of personal knowledge and study-that would be on the subject of religion.

Second paragraph IS the proof that an intelligence (hereafter referred to as God) that far exceeds the intelligence that exists upon the entirety of the Globe! Prove he Does NOT exist without using DNA and Atom creation and you"ll see have quickly all your arguments come to naught. You simply cannot make any arguments for natural evolution without having to rely 100% on those two elements. You cannot use ignorance of subject matter as proof of nonexistence. That is neither based in fact, nor an intelligible argument. Prove that God DID NOT create the DNA strand and the Atom ". If you can, but stop saying God doesn"t exist based solely on unscientific data.
You cannot speak to the subject of the supernatural, you"ve never studied it! Stop commenting on things you do not know from lack of study. Why are you ON a religious debate board if you personally have not researched the actual existence of God for yourself? (no I do not mean that maliciously, I"m appealing to your reason). So before you will accept the existence of God (for which you have not researched, looked for , reflected upon , sat through church services, read the Bible seriously, reviewed religious materials) you think God, The God should bow to your intellect. Do you NOT see the lunacy in such reasoning? As to submitting to God ". You most certainly stand condemned and at the end of your life, God WILL make Himself known too you! Don"t leave it like that. You don"t have too, God will prove Himself to you IF you honestly and with an open mind seek Him. It"s only to late, when you die or when Christ comes (that"s a different subject entirely).

Because God is ABOVE you or sciences ability to understand Him is precisely WHY you cannot just throw the baby out with the bath water. You MUST look. Not decree based on man"s feeble knowledge. Do you not see the reasoning in this fact? You say you can"t prove it, and flatly refuse to SEE the proof that lies in plain sight ".. Look AGAIN my friend, open your reason and Look again. There IS ONLY ONE possible explanation for the creation of the DNA strand and the Atom. Just look and ponder on it!

Can you not look at the evidence itself from your OWN prospective, stop looking at what the scientist interpretations are and start interpreting the data .... for yourself.
Debate Round No. 2


I have personal knowledge of religion. I grew up in a christian family where my father is the pastor. I've read the bible cover to cover and I think Jesus was a great guy and an excellent example of how we should be. I can call fallacies out where i see a poor argument and you must adjust your arguments accordingly. If your god really wanted me to know he was there he would have told me. I grew up in a religious family and i wasn't convinced. Regardless i don't need to be religious to tell you it's untrue or lacking in any evidence the same way i don't need to be a murderer to know murder is morally wrong. No fallacies have been committed on my part.

No, DNA and the atom is not proof of your god. That's one of the most ridiculous arguments i have heard. I do not have to prove your God doesn't exist when you made the assertion that he does exist. Have you heard of Abiogenesis? The theory states that life could have arisen from non living matter[1]. I will provide a link to the wikipedia page (I have checked the sources) which will give you more information about the theory. Again, I am not here to prove your God doesn't exist I am here to argue that modern religion is outdated and fallacious. I will not argue for your god's lack of existence because i cannot provide evidence for lack of evidence. I don't have to be religious or even have religious knowledge to use simple empirical methods to disprove your arguments.

Oh, The bible defines your God which is proof that we can understand and comprehend your God if he even exists. You cannot define God then say he is above our comprehension that is a fallacious argument.

You have provided no evidence for your claims. I must also note no the bible is not proof for your God nor is the atom or DNA. Science and reason is all we have and you are using it to attempt to combat my arguments.



I"m sorry I"m not talking about religion; I"m talking about a personal relationship with God. Growing up in family of believers no more makes you Christian or even knowledgeable about Christians than putting a pink bow on a pig makes it a poodle. Had you genuinely sought God, God would have come to you, so do not bother to lie to yourself or anyone else about your seeking Him. No one who really seeks God, EVER walks away once they have found him. No, if you HAD read the bible cover to cover you would have known this because you would have recognized yourself in Matthew 13, you were clearly NOT the good soil!
You know nothing of scripture, you"re as blind as you ever were, as the scriptures are spiritually discerned, which means you must HAVE the spirit of God to interpret it. You deny God, though evidence of Him is right before your eyes. Only a person with an ulterior motive would go so far as to gloat on scientific data then turn around and deny data from the same scientist who have long stated that the DNA and Atom are beyond the scope of human intelligence to decipher at this current time. But Noooo couldn"t mean there is a God. Look if you"re not going to BE Honest why are you debating. You not submitted one thing of scientific data to refute that DNA or the Atom is not of intelligent design.

And yet you"ve not bothered to reflect on it yourself. You wonder the boards, talking about things you have not researched yourself instead spewing out everything someone else has told you to believe. Wikipedia, that"s your big research huh ". Please you should be ashamed of yourself. Look if you can"t provide me the origin of DNA and the Atom, AND you cannot provide me with a half way believable reason for their existence ".. Then concede and move on, but stop ranting about things your being told to believe by some science yoyo. Try looking into them yourself, and use a little self-initiative. But do not talk of relationships or even a remote knowledge of God, even your Dad could tell you that the scriptures are spiritually discerned

The very Idea that you can get someone to create a false religion when you yourself refuse to acknowledge the real one through sheer ignorance, shows a complete lack of serious consideration on your deism theories. But understand your denial of the real God does not absolve you of the penalty for denying what God says you already know. So play ignorant if you want to but know that your eternal soul WILL pay the price for your suppression of the truth.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God"s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Debate Round No. 3


I was a child and as a child i asked God to talk to me and nothing happened. You can go on and say "You didn't really try!" but that won't change anything. And there are plenty of people who used to be christian but now aren't (don't pull a no true scotsman fallacy). Once again, we know DNA and the atom exist and we are learning more about them almost daily and it's NOT proof of any god's existence that is just absurd just because we don't know everything doesn't mean God did it, that was literally the way religion came to be because there are some things we didn't know and we needed a way to justify things we don't understand. Atoms came to be after the big bang[1] and DNA came with the first organism forming from RNA[2]. Some even believe DNA existed before life began[2].

At least i actually provide sources for my claims which you have yet to do at all. Don't quote bible verses as they are of no use to your argument here. We aren't debating your holy book we are debating weather religion is still valid in the 21st century and you have not convinced me at all and most likely you have not convinced anyone. Your arguments are 90% rhetoric 9% bible references and 1% coherent arguments. Please answer the question that this debate is supposed to be about. Is religion still valid in the 21st century?

Sources:[1] [2]


Once again you err by relying on FLAWED human intellect. God says you were never a believer, neither was anyone else who CLAIMED they used to be Christians, they like you are guilty of the worse kind of lie, the lie to self.

Read Matthew 13 and Mark 4 which adamantly points out (not direct quotes obviously) that The Good soil is the ONLY soil that produces fruit. The seed (Gods Word), that fell along the pathway was quickly snatched up by the devil (this would indicate YOU since you say nothing happened), The seed that fell on the rocks Sprang up quickly BUT because it had NO ROOT it died away as soon as persecution came because of the word of God (This is those who CLAIM to have BEEN Christians). The other seed that fell among the thorns grew, but the cares of this world, the pursuit of material things choked the word out and THEY became unfruitful. or in this case lost their alleged faith? with a little "f"

So you see ".. not a SINGLE one of those 3 were EVER Christians, because the worshiped with their lips but their heart was far away from God. The seed that fell in the Good Soil (ONLY) took root and produced crops of varying measures "" Uhhh, yeah, that ain"t and never been ANYONE who CLAIMS to HAVE BEEN a Believer and ahem ". Lost their faith? Can"t lose what you never had, sorry! Not my words people ".. Gods Word, read it for yourself, want to argue with someone, want to throw out some human theorist, go for it ".. but those same theorist will no doubt greet you in Hell, not that you"ll gain any solace in that knowledge. BTW did you know that God talked more about Hell than He did of Heaven.? Just some trivia!
Look people TIME IS RUNNING OUT .... there are gonna be some world changing, jaw dropping, fear producing things coming down the pike REAL soon, you only have till THEN to wake up!

You KNOW the DNA and the Atom exists do you? Saberen ".. and yet you are sooo desparate to try and prove too yourself that you ARE NOT being held accountable for your actions that you will accept the absurd, rather than the obvious. It is PRECISELY why the vast majority of you people ". You people being Atheist, agnostics and every other deluded ists, and ics, are gonna spend eternity in Hell. (again, not my words ". Gods, go argue with Him? )

The Final Judgment- yes these are quotes!!!!!
"13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom (homosexuals) and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)" 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
And YET that you KNOW they DNA/Atom exists, and purposely REFUSE to even consider that it might be PROOF (which, I"ll already tell you that it is, and yes God SAYS you ALREADY KNOW He made them and are deliberately lying to yourself, and others ".. you will be held over for punishment, and given over to your sinful desires ". See Romans Chapter 1 start at verse 18. )

Some even believe that DNA existed Before Life? And yet NONE of those people were ACTUALLY there were they? So this YOU call sources Huh? So you'll believe guys who WEREN'T there but NOT God??? What is the definition of gullible? AND desperate? No matter your STILL being held for everlasting punishment ". UNLESS you wake up, and start your search for Gods existence for real, and quit believing everything man tells you to believe. [1]
The process by which the awareness of One God gave way to a belief in many gods, has been described by Scandinavian researchers (see footnote 2) as splitting ("Gottespaltung"): the people gradually viewed God's attributes of truth, righteousness, fertility etc., as separate from Him, and afterwards personified and worshiped the attributes themselves, until God was largely forgotten.

The focus is that the PEOPLE viewed ". Forget about what Gods views were huh? [2]-History of hallucination-ism ". Err Atheism ". Really? [3] 84% of the World population is Christian? Please, if there actually were 84% True Bible believing Christians in the world do you ACTUALLY BELIEVE abortion, homosexual marriage, incestuous relationships, child rape, rapes, murders, corrupt Politicians, Greed on a massive scale, adulterous affairs, Living together OUT OF WEDLOCK, Teen pregnancies, Lesbianism, Bestiality and the like WOULD EXIST ".. How Blind are YOU? Abiogenesis ".. spare me, before there were scientist there WAS God, funny how you conveniently overlook that Huh? Still being TOLD what to think? [2]DNA Could have existed before Life "" and IF I had wheels ". I could be a wagon? Look ".. put away the opinions of people looking for agendas, and get real before you end up IN Hell! Last warning!
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 5 months ago
God has been proven to be Real and Evolution a Lie in Debate" The Proof that God exists IS Mans unique existence."
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
5.You begin to see God actually guiding everything that happens to you, causing a natural growth in hope and faith that simply cannot BE described.
6.YOU ARE GIVEN eternal life- freely, no strings attached. That means that you ARE FORGIVEN of all the wrongs you committed past, present and future. Non-believers and False Christians have a real heyday with that one. Their like Oh so that means I can sin and get away with it? Let me ask you? Has a person who DELIBERATELY lives a sinful life REALLY GIVEN his heart to God? Yeah God isn"t fooled either! He"s God, He KNOWS who are His!
7.God begins to show Himself to those whom you love and THEY start becoming saved as well. It"s incredible ".. WHY would you NOT want that!
It is up to you. God does exist and IS waiting for you to begin an honest search. If you just start, God will come the farther distance too you?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
c.He uses people, situations and circumstances allowing you to bare witness to the living word " in other words, your eyes are opened and you begin to SEE the scriptures playing out in everyday life. And you LEARN from them.

2.You begin to be filled with a happiness that you cannot explain. Things which troubled you before lose the power they once had over you and you"re able to see things differently.
3.As you grow this Joy begins to permeate your existence, becoming increasingly stronger in spirit and more difficult for lifes situations to unravel you.
4.Things begin to work in your favor, even when they are inherently Bad, they result in Good to you and too your life, and you begin to see exactly why it was a positive thing and not the bad thing you thought it was at the time it was happening.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
In my zeal to attempt to get people to seek God for themselves, I at times fail to understand the humanistic side of WHY anyone WOULD WANT to search for God, in this Godless society, outside the need to save their soul. Which yes that"s a big deal ".. BUT there is so much more.
1.God demonstrates too all who diligently seek Him all knowledge of Him ". What that means is that God ". The God, undertakes your education of Himself. God"s Spirit begins to lead and guide you through the scriptures AND through your life.
a.He interprets too you precisely what He means by a set scripture. He brings other devoted believers into and across your path who have devoted themselves to God to Help you make sense of His word.
b.He undertakes all the changes from what you were to what He created you to be. His changes of yourself are permanent, and lasting, unlike a resolution which man never keeps, His changes of you stay! He changes you to such a degree, instantly causing you to be repulsed by sinful desires and conducts. That means YOU didn"t have to force yourself to avoid those bad behaviors you for reasons that only God can explain just no longer DESIRE to do them!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
Hello again matt8800 great to hear from you. Again your wrong BUT your wrong for the same reason. YOU have never researched God, so you have no credibility. You simply cannot debate a topic you know nothing about, other than what OTHERS have told you .... and since you cannot conclude that YOUR sources have ever ACTUALLY honestly and with an open mind researched Gods existence ..... well.

The same applies too you that applies to Since your still blinded by your rejection of God: Lets put it a secular way- of the thousands of thousands of paranormal videos that exist in the world. IF EVEN 1 IS REAL, it highly suggest that the soul of man and or MORE frightening for you ..... That Demons EXIST! As a follower of God, I can attest to the answer that Angels AND Demons do exist, and if you do not change your attitude and start searching for God for real, your in for a very harsh and frightening awakening at the end of your Life! It's not too late for you ..... start today ...... start today!

search for Him Matt8800, I'll help you!
Posted by matt8800 7 months ago
Interesting debate. I agree with Pro since non-religious deism does not contradict logic and therefore an intellectually honest position.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955 Since your still blinded by your rejection of God: Lets put it a secular way- of the thousands of thousands of paranormal videos that exist in the world. IF EVEN 1 IS REAL, it highly suggest that the soul of man and or MORE frightening for you ..... That Demons EXIST! As a follower of God, I can attest to the answer that Angels AND Demons do exist, and if you do not change your attitude and start searching for God for real, your in for a very harsh and frightening awakening at the end of your Life! It's not too late for you ..... start today ...... start today!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955 : Wrong there IS most definitely a should or shouldn't involved. You are correct that to remain in ignorance IS a personal decision. What IS NOT a personal decision is the punishment that shall be yours at the end of your life. It is true that the consequences are your own. But it is far wiser to confirm Gods existence for yourself. To hear of the severity of punishment (and you have) by those who HAVE searched out the question for themselves, and to IGNORE or outright refuses to believe it without a personal, open and honest research of the data that is readily available is not the actions of a rational mind.

Look at the data, not what scientist TELL you it means, you can determine what it means on your own. It's your soul, that hags in the balance.
Posted by 7 months ago
This is a specious argument to begin with. There is no should or shouldn't involved - holding belief, or nonbelief, is a personal decision, and nobody's business to be telling others what to think.
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