The Instigator
Weiler
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
miketheman1200
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Democrats are intentionally hurting people during the shutdown to blame Republicans

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
miketheman1200
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,594 times Debate No: 38408
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

Weiler

Pro

Democrats are intentionally making the shutdown as painful and shocking as possible in order to blame Republicans for it.
miketheman1200

Con

I accept the debate and will argue con. I await your beginning arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Weiler

Pro

Democrats are making the shutdown as painful as possible in order to garner media and public attention and sympathy, and point to the Republicans and "the bad guys".

1. Barricading the WWII memorial in Washington DC.

Never before during a shutdown has the government barricaded an open air memorial in Washington DC. The barricading of the WWII memorial was a cheap publicity stunt because it was well know that a group of WWII veterans were scheduled to arrive and see the memorial built to their honor. In hopes of getting publicity over distressed veterans unable to tour the site, the US Park Police (who are still on duty during the shutdown) barricaded the memorial. Unfortunately for the administration this move backfired when, to the delight of cheering onlookers, the veterans of our greatest generation stormed the barricades, torn them down, and took their tour.

No other open air monument was barricaded.

2. Politicization of cancer research.

Democrats have made hay about children with cancer not being able to get into clinical trials at the National Institutes of Health. Republicans offered a bill to fully fund NIH during the shutdown, the Democrats shut down that bill and proceeded o cry on television about the poor children. I found this one particularly offensive as I myself am a two-time survivor of childhood cancer.

3. Refusal to negotiate.

The President and Senate Democrats are demanding that they get everything they have asked for, before they will even sit down at the table with Republicans. To recap at the beginning of this debate, the Democrats wanted a clean Continuing Resolution funding the entire government for fiscal year 2014, the Republicans were willing to give it to them, with an amendment defunding Obamacare. Since then the Republicans have offered several compromises:

1. A bill funding the government but delaying the individual mandate for one year.
2. A bill funding the government and repealing the medical device tax.
3. A bill funding the government and removing special subsidies for members of congress.

The Senate Democrats have refused all of these proposals, and refused to go to conference with Republicans unless they get what they wanted from the beginning, a clean CR funding the government through fiscal year 2014.
miketheman1200

Con

I thank my opponent again for the good topic and I wish Him good luck.

I'll go over some of Pros points here.


1. Barricading the WWII Memorial in Washington DC.


My opponent claims that the barricading of the memorial is an effort of democrats to make the republicans look bad. While ignoring the fact that millions of people who were planning to visit parks and federal monuments cannot due to the shutdown, my opponent also doesn't look at the situation in a logical manner. If the Democrat administration is shutting down this memorial, which you claim is irregular, why would republicans receive blame for it? In fact I have seen multiple conservative groups using this event to their advantage to criticize the democrats. The point is that democrats would not be the ones to benefit from this.


2. Politicization of cancer research


This is especially interesting as I haven't heard much on this subject as of now. It does however seem to me that anyone who would hear about this would look on it in a negative view towards democrats. Beside that, all departments or institutions considered non-essential will not be funded during the shutdown. This shut down is due to an inability to agree on a government funding bill. I'm sure funding for the NIH is a part of the bill, but because it is non-essential it should not receive funding until there are funds that can be appropriated to it.


3. Refusal to negotiate


This one is especially bothersome to me. Why is it that this shutdown has occurred? It has happened because of disagreement. Disagreement on both sides and an inability to compromise. What my opponent is missing is that this is coming from both sides. The democrats have been voted into office to represent their constituents who feel they should defend the ACA. The republicans aim to please their constituents by fighting against the ACA. The democrats had no problem with the GOP's government funding plan. But did anyone really believe they could slip defending ACA by? This shutdown is completely because of a disagreement over the funding/defunding of ACA. The republicans are the ones who decided they would try to fight this battle now and what you get is a stalemate. I really don't see how this isn't expected. If the democrats offer an amendment to the bill that reverses the ACA defunding, that would be a negotiation, and when the republicans say no to it that would be refusal to negotiate. The way Pro uses this argument is essentially saying that refusal to negotiate is only coming from one side. This of course is ridiculous as we know that it takes two to negotiate.

In closing for this round Ill say that this shutdown is not some elaborate scheme by democrats to hurt the GOP's image. It is just business as usual in Washington. Disagreement over how much money to spend and where.


Republican criticism of democrats.
https://www.facebook.com...?
fbid=10151714972872971&set=a.189889147970.127018.189885532970&type=1&theater

http://www.ijreview.com...


http://www.ijreview.com...

http://www.ijreview.com...

https://www.facebook.com...?
fbid=10151712296812971&set=a.189889147970.127018.189885532970&type=1&theater

s://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net...; alt="Photo: SIGN our petition and STAND with us in telling the Senate Dems to END their shutdown! http://bit.ly...; width="403" height="403" />
https://www.facebook.com...

Democrats criticism of republicans.

https://www.facebook.com...?
fbid=10151672170081545&set=a.131018881544.111603.23790541544&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com...


https://www.facebook.com...

Both parties believe they are correct in where they stand. This brings us back to the whole thing about disagreement.

Debate Round No. 2
Weiler

Pro

Disagreement is not an unusual thing in the District. A complete and utter unwillingness to compromise, however, is rare. Government shutdowns are usually ended or avoided with a compromise, the Democrats have refused to accept ANYTHING but what they have wanted from the beginning, and attempting to place the blame of on the Republicans.

They are intentionally causing pain by refusing to even take "Yes" for an answer. The Republicans have offered the funding for several programs that all sides agree should be funded immediately. The Democrats are basically say "No, not until we get everything else we want."
miketheman1200

Con

How is it that only the democrats are unwilling to compromise? Better yet why should they have to? The republicans introduced this bill with the defunding of ACA as a part of it. Of course this would cause conflict in congress with no possibility of the democrats conceding. This should be 20/20 hindsight for anyone. Almost all republicans in the senate and house are for defunding or repealing ACA and almost all democrats are for upholding or making changes. Both parties are unwilling to give up their goal. The democrats are not purposely harming anyone. Neither are the republicans. They are inadvertently hurting people due to public sector jobs being put on furlough but it isn't on purpose.

No funds will be appropriated until they figure out what money is going where and how much they can spend. The republicans will need to cut their losses and give up on delaying, defunding, whatever to the ACA. That is the only thing that will allow a new funding bill to pass. The democrats are doing their jobs by refusing republican offers. Just as republicans are doing their job by making these offers and trying to dismantle ACA. In a sense this house bill has forced the hands of the democrats in the senate because allowing that bill to pass would have meant going back on their voters who are supportive of ACA.

The Republicans blame the democrats for this shutdown just as much as the democrats blame republicans. The democrats are defending their position, nothing more.
Debate Round No. 3
Weiler

Pro

The Republicans have offered at least two bills to fully fund the government without repealing, defunding, or delaying the ACA:

1. To fund the government but remove special subsidies for members of congress; and
2. To fund the government but repeal the medical device tax.

The administration had the barrier put up around the WWII memorial in hopes of getting footage of aged war veterans unable to visit. That's right, they won't fund a fence at our border, but they'll darn sure build one around a war memorial!

It is not the job of one party to simply nay-say any proposal brought up by the other.
miketheman1200

Con

Pro states that multiple offers have been made by republicans to end the shutdown.

1. To fund the government but remove special subsidies for members of congress

I would love for Pro to cite this information because if every republican was on board with this I would be shocked. I know the democrats wouldn't be.

2 To fund the government but repeal the medical device tax.

Democrats have stated that they will not allow a bill to pass if it pertains to ACA in any way and yes that does.

Here is an article on how good an idea it is for republicans to get rid of it. But its just to prove that it pertains to ACA
(copy and paste, link wouldn't work for some reason)
http://www.forbes.com...

As for Pros closing statement I would have to disagree. The democratic party has millions of men and women supporting them who hate republicans. You cannot expect them to back down or concede to such a push by republicans when we are coming up on an election cycle. It would make them look weak in the eyes of voters. All they are trying to do is stay resolute in their decision to defend ACA and any republican efforts. It wont be viewed as the republicans fault across the board because most people understand what they are trying to do. In 1996 its theorized that the republicans maintained a majority in both chambers for the first time since the 1920's because of their firmness on the budget against bill Clinton. That shutdown was viewed as the republicans fault for a while. But the strength they showed got them re elected by their constituents. This scenario can help explain why democrats may not want to compromise. If they show weakness now it could cost them their seats later.
Debate Round No. 4
Weiler

Pro

I see in my opponent's response he seems to concede that the democrats will not negotiate on the only pertinent issue, the ACA.
miketheman1200

Con

Yes Pro, they are going to fight against a piece of legislation that they are most definitely against. Though this has nothing to do with the resolution in which you claim that they are intentionally hurting people during the shutdown to blame republicans. To me it would seem that because of their resistance to the bill and refusal to pass it they should be the ones at fault.

To close I will leave you with this: This shutdown is just the result of complete disagreement on both sides. Although people are being hurt because of the shutdown it is the fault of both parties and by no means intentional. I hope the voters will see the that pro is one side of the spectrum attempting to pin a negative view on the other side.

It was a fun debate and thank you pro for your civility.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Double_R 3 years ago
Double_R
Nothing amazes me more then someone claiming that the democrats are trying to maximize the pain of the shutdown when republicans are literally using the pain of a government shutdown as political leverage to achieve their agenda.
Posted by Weiler 3 years ago
Weiler
I'm guessing he said something rather inappropriate then? Can anyone post a censored g rated version so I know what we are talking about?
Posted by miketheman1200 3 years ago
miketheman1200
His vote got deleted
Posted by Weiler 3 years ago
Weiler
Who the hell is Daniel?
Posted by RulerOfNone 3 years ago
RulerOfNone
Not intentional? Michelle Bachmann and other Republicans say otherwise. The Tea Party aims to burn the country down. They've practically admitted this.
Posted by miketheman1200 3 years ago
miketheman1200
My father watches Fox news. I agree completely.
Posted by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
Daniel is serving a fine example of why people who watch fox news all the time are brain dead hacks who should be forced to carry out abortions for the rest of their lives.....
Posted by miketheman1200 3 years ago
miketheman1200
Daniel, what the hell does that have to do with the debate???
Posted by miketheman1200 3 years ago
miketheman1200
I just want to put it out there that I despise these political parties and everything they stand for. But honestly this resolution seemed entirely ridiculous to me and that's why I took to the debate.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 3 years ago
funwiththoughts
Weilermiketheman1200Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro was winning until near the end when he dropped pretty much all his arguments.
Vote Placed by Beverlee 3 years ago
Beverlee
Weilermiketheman1200Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro has the burden of proof, and had set the bar pretty high. He basically had to prove that Democrats were intentionally increasing the pain of the shutdown in order to blame the Republicans. This is nearly impossible to prove. I wish that Con had pressed Pro more, but what he did was enough without some evidence by Pro. I could not find any unbiased sources by Pro that I felt that I could trust.
Vote Placed by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
Weilermiketheman1200Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro had some good first arguments. But the brevity of his subsequent responses meant that he wasn't covering enough ground. Ultimately, I thought Pro could have really hammered the NIH argument more, but he didn't. Con's responses were logical, and far more in depth that the short and thin rebuttals Pro provided. Thus, I give the arguments to Con. Sources, conduct, and spelling were the same for me. Nice round everyone!
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
Weilermiketheman1200Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro couldnt seem to swallow the basic facts that con presented which showed that the GOP are the ones behind the shutdown and are the ones who are causing it to be extended.... Pro dropped all arguemnts and failed to present even a single source that any of his claims were true.