The Instigator
Metsfan57
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Derek Jeter is overrated

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2010 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,565 times Debate No: 12280
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

Metsfan57

Pro

I believe Derek Jeter, the shortstop of the New York Yankees, is overrated as an offensive and defensive player. He is overpaid as a result and is regarded as one of the best players in baseball. I'll go more into specifics after the first con argument.
Danielle

Con

Many thanks to my opponent for beginning this debate, even though it's kind of a cop out to post a challenge and then have your competitor go first. Regardless, I'd like to begin by noting that I was born and raised in New York City, and as such grew up loving both the New York Yankees AND The New York Mets. Granted, it's been easier being a Yankee fan over the years considering the vast amount of success they've had whereas the Mets have been more than a little disappointing and downright frustrating in several key seasons. Nevertheless, I still love both teams and regard Derek Jeter as one of the greatest players in MLB history as well as one of the most prominent MLB players today. I don't think he is overrated; I think he deserves all of his fame and success.

===========================================================================

David Schoenfield said it best: Derek Jeter has the killer instinct of Jackie Robinson, the hustle of Pete Rose, the bat artistry of George Brett, the leadership of Kirby Puckett, the clutch hitting of Reggie Jackson, the acrobatics of Ozzie Smith, the eyes of Grace Kelly. He's the perfect ballplayer [1].

Pro insists that Derek Jeter is overrated, and yet nobody can deny his accomplishments. It is no wonder he is considered the BEST SHORTSTOP OF ALL TIME by TV's "The Insiders," though most rank him as #2 only behind Honus Wagner. After winning 1996's prestigious Rookie of the Year award, Jeter went on to be a NINE-TIME All-Star and the MVP of the 2000 World Series. He boasts a career .316 batting average, and is called "Mr. November" due to the Yankees post-season success for which Jeter's accomplishments are largely attributed (i.e. his 17 post-season homers). In addition to having the most hits in post-season history, he also has more hits than any other Short Stop ever, and this year even surpassed Lou Gehrig making him the all-time hit leader of the Yankees franchise.

Derek Jeter is a 5-time world champion and has a career .975 fielding percentage -- definitely among the league's elite, especially considering the fact that he's won 3 Gold Glove awards. One important attribute Jeter has is his consistency - he's great every season! He is captain to the best team in the MLB and proves to be a fantastic leader year after year. He's always been level headed, fair and a good sportsman. He is a great role model to young players and his teammates. The MLB commissioner even considers him "The face of baseball." In noting all of Jeter's hard work, dedication, leadership, statistics and awards, how can Pro possibly be serious in saying that Derek Jeter is overrated? One cannot fake statistics; they're not biased. He's earned his spot as a member of the elite players and possibly one of the best to ever play the game.

==== AWARDS DEREK WON ====

1994 Minor League Player of the Year Award
1996 Players Choice: Outstanding Rookie of the Year Award
1996 Rookie of the Year Award
1996 Sporting News Rookie Player of the Year Award
1998 Player of the Month Award
2000 All-Star Game Most Valuable Player Award
2000 Babe Ruth Award (World Series MVP)
2000 World Series Most Valuable Player Award
2004 Gold Glove Award for Shortstops
2005 Gold Glove Award for Shortstops
2006 Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award
2006 Gold Glove Award for Shortstops
2006 Hank Aaron Award
2006 Silver Slugger Award (American League)
2006 TYIB: Hitter of the Year Award
2007 Silver Slugger Award (American League)
2008 Silver Slugger Award (American League)
2009 Gold Glove Award for Shortstops
2009 Hank Aaron Award
2009 Roberto Clemente Man of the Year Award
2009 Silver Slugger Award (American League)
2009 Sportsman of the Year Award

[1] http://www.cbssports.com...
[2] http://www.baseball-almanac.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Metsfan57

Pro

Thank you for accepting the debate. I only wanted to hear your side of the argument first because I just wanted to know exactly where you stand, and now I know.

You've cited a few different accomplishments of Derek Jeter. To name a few:

1. .317 Batting Average
2. Mr. November
3. Nine time all star
4. Career hits
5. Five time World Champion
6. .975 fielding percentage
7. 3 Gold Glove awards

These seven points address the following: Jeter's offense, Jeter's clutch ability, Jeter's defense and Jeter having the reputation of being a winner.

I'm not saying Jeter is a bad hitter, he boasts a career .387 OBP, well above average. But the argument that i am making is that he is overrated. That doesn't mean he is bad, just that he is worse than he is made out to be by the media. If he were a spectacular hitter, he would have an OBP above .400, superstar quality.

Next, Jeter's clutch ability. That homerun in the first ever baseball game in November gave him the nickname of Mr. November. As we both know, he also is known as Captain Clutch. But is this the case? There have been studies done to determine whether clutch ability exists. The results? Luck. The studies showed that most if not all of clutch ability is determined by luck. There is a statistic called Clutch. It shows how a player does in higher leverage situations. If Clutch ability were a skill, then players would have positive Clutch numbers every year. This isn't the case, their clutch numbers fluctuate year after year. The same goes for Jeter. So is he clutch? No, he is not.

Defense. There have been many studies done on Jeter's defense. Fielding Percentage is a poor statistic to look at, it doesn't give any indication of a player's range. Stats like Ultimate Zone Rating or Defensive Runs Saved are more reliable. Jeter's range continually ranks at the bottom of the league for the shortstop position. He has poor range. The only reason he has any gold gloves is because of the few good plays he has made. Diving into the stands? That pretty much secured the 2004 Gold Glove for him. But no, he is not a good fielder. Right now, over his career he has cost the Yankees over 100 runs with his glove.

The World Championships mean nothing when assessing Jeter. That is a team accomplishment, not a player accomplishment. Bad players have indeed played on winning teams before. Also, back in 2004 when the Yankees acquired Alex Rodriguez. He was one of the best shortstops in all of baseball the year before. If Jeter really cared about the team, and wanted to win, he would have forfeited the position to Arod, doing so would have helped the team. He wouldn't even consider doing such a thing.

So, based on a few good plays he's made and a few key hits he's had, the media praises him as being one of the best all around players. This is not the case, and this is why I believe he is overrated. Not to mention, this leads to him being overpaid, which restraints his team's payroll flexibility and the ability to sign other good players.
Danielle

Con

Thanks, Pro, for the interesting case...

========
Re: Offense
========

Pro contends that if Derek Jeter were a true superstar, his OBP would be "well above .400." Let it be known that only 4 players in the American League have an OBP over 400 right now [1] and nobody in their right mind would contend that Jeter is among the top 4 batters in the AL. However, he does boast something close to 400 - a .387 career OBP which Pro admits is well above average. He then contends that the media exaggerates his abilities. How so? The media talks about anyone who's CONSISTENTLY "well above average" as Derek Jeter has proven to be over the past 16 seasons. Also, something I haven't mentioned in the last round is that Jeter is good offensively because he also has a good eye and can steal bases if necessary. He's a great lead-off batter.

==========
Re: The Clutch
==========

Pro asserts that The Clutch does not exist and labels it a myth. However, various people have come up with mathematical formulas to determine whether or not The Clutch position really exists and they determine that it does [2]. Other sources note that the Clutch definitely exists; people just have different understandings of what it is [3]. Derek Jeter himself once told Sports Illustrated, "You can take those stat guys and throw them out the window." Those who chalk Clutch up to luck expect the circumstance of one's situation (whether the game is on the line or not) to be irrelevant. Anyone with any degree of psychology knowledge knows that in tough situations some people choke, some people step up to the plate (no pun intended) and some people are in fact truly unaffected. While a 'clutch' situation might have no bearing in some players, a clutch situation (defined as a game defining at-bat) certainly exists and some people work better under pressure. That is a simple fact. Jeter has performed well in many clutch situations.

========
Re: Defense
========

Pro says that Jeter has a weak range and I would tend to agree with that assessment. However we have absolutely no reason to accept Pro's speculation about why he won 3 Golden Gloves [he's attributing it to just a few plays]. If making a few good plays is enough to win one a Gold Glove, then can't it be said that the other winners didn't deserve it either? Apparently Jeter made more good plays [big players] than other players or else he wouldn't have won the award... 3 times.

==========
Re: The Team
==========

I disagree that Derek Jeter has nothing to do with the Yankees' success, or the belief that DJ is not a team player. A team "having money" is not enough to get to and win the World Series (right, Red Sox?). Leadership and discipline is required; Jeter offers both. He's a veteran who's earned his reputation at being a very good teammate and a very good Yankee. There was no reason to forfeit his SS position to A-Rod. Jeter had earned his spot and A-Rod picked up the 3B position. Pro admits that Jeter's range is limited meaning as an infelder he wouldn't have been better suited to make the transition to 3B and especially not the outfield. He's certainly not a 1B either meaning the only other position he could have played was 2B. Given his experience at SS, both himself and his managers probably felt that it was in the team's best interest to keep him in that position.

Finally, Pro asserts that Jeter is overpaid and thus limits the team's ability to acquire better players and help the team overall. This is false. The Yankees dominate the rest of baseball in terms of their salaries, and 2 other Yankees are paid higher than Jeter [4]. The Yankees have so much money that paying Jeter less wouldn't do much in terms of their ability to acquire awesome talent.

=========
CONCLUSION
=========

Nobody would argue that Jeter is THE best hitter or THE best defender. People do however praise his consistency and his ability to perform above average year in and year out. While he may not have the greatest range on the defensive side of the ball, he doesn't make a lot of errors and is known to make excellent plays; some that even cause him to jump into the stands and bleed. He's considered a great player and worth the cost because of his leadership ability and willingness to put the Yankees first. Being a Yankee is very important to him; he's specifically stated on many occasions that he wants to be remembered in particular as a Yankee - the team that means so much to him. His dedication, level of commitment and ability to command respect of the players, coaches and even opponents is why the MLB commissioner priases Jeter the way he does. The media portrays Jeter in a great light because of his instincts and ability to remain collected. He's won a ton of awards and his numbers speak for themselves. You'll notice that Pro said Jeter was largely overrated, and yet he absolutely cannot take away from the facts I mentioned regarding being the Yankee player with the most all-time hits, post season hits, etc.

=====
Sources
=====

[1] http://espn.go.com...
[2] http://www.tangotiger.net...
[3] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[4] http://espn.go.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Metsfan57

Pro

Offense:

I admitted that Derek Jeter is a good offensive hitter. He has a career .387 OBP, which is good, but not great. The media makes him out to be one of the BEST hitters in baseball. A statistic developed by Tom Tango, weighted on base average(wOBA) uses linear weights to measure everything a batter does at the plate and on the bases. Jeter's career wOBA is .375. It's on the same scale as OBP, so again, Jeter is above average, but not superstar quality. Again, I've admitted that Jeter is a good offensive performer, but calling him overrated does not mean to call him a poor offensive player, just that he is not as good as most believe him to be.

Clutch:

Let me specify exactly what I meant about Clutch ability. There are without a doubt clutch performances. Everyone that has watched a baseball game has seen a well timed base hit, a big play in the field at the right time, or a key strikeout. These exist. But do clutch performers exist? Bill James sums it up quite nicely, "How is it that a player who possesses the reflexes and the batting stroke and the knowledge and the experience to be a .260 hitter in other circumstances magically becomes a .300 hitter when the game is on the line? How does that happen?" The idea that a player's true skill becomes greater in a big time situation is proposterous. A handfull of successful clutch at bats does not prove that clutch is a skill either. By using the binomial probability distribution, there is a 4.8% chance that a .300 hitter will bat .500 in twenty or so at bats, just because of random chance [1]. A .300 hitter is expected to get a hit 30% of the time. If all of his clutch at bats end in being outs, that could be expected because even a .300 hitter is expected to make an out 70% of the time. A lot of clutch ability is due to luck. As I mentioned previously, there is a statistic for this, called Clutch. If it were a skill, it wouldn't fluctuate as much as it does. These are the Clutch numbers for Jeter's past five seasons including 2010: 0.84,-0.85,-0.28,-0.17, 2.33 [2]. As you can see, Jeter had a huge clutch season in 2006 with a rating of 2.33. But then the next three years were all negative, and now partly through 2010, he is positive again. The correlation between year to year clutch performance is .01 [3]. If it were a true skill, it would be more consistent, but it's not.

Defense:

The only problem with these spectacular plays, is that he makes them look spectacular. A diving catch for him wouldn't be a diving catch for a shortstop with good range. The argument about the Gold Glove winners is a good one. Most of the gold glove winners didn't deserve them. This award is voted upon by people that don't look at range, they look at the 'big plays' they remember. The 2004 'dive into the stands' was a big play that almost everyone remembered. Lets not forget though, that he took three full strides after catching the ball and before he went into the stands. If it wasn't for the bloody face, it wouldn't be as remembered. When it comes down to true defensive ability, all I can say is that Jeter has cost his team about 100 runs, or roughly 10 wins, over the course of his career. He isn't a good shortstop, con even agreed about him having weak range.

The Team:

I'm not saying he has nothing to do with the team's success, he does, because he is a good player. But having five championship rings doesn't make a player better than a player with none, because that is a team accomplishment. We can't quantify leadership or discipline, so I'll leave this one up in the air. The reason for him to forfeit his position to Arod was because Arod was better. Much better. According to positional adjustments, SS is the second hardest position, after Catcher. Giving the job to Arod would have helped the team by saving more runs. Jeter would have been better suited for 3B because it utilizes less range than SS. Arod was better, that's all it comes down to.

How does this payroll claim make any sense? He is being paid $22 million in 2010 [4]. He has never once given the Yankees a home town discount, surprising considering he wants to finish his career as a Yankee. If he was paid less, that gives the organization more money to spend on other good players. Jeter isn't the only player on the team that this applies to. If Arod made $10 million less then that would mean more money to spend on other talent, thus helping the team win championships. Just because the Yankees have an outrageously high payroll doesn't mean they want to spend every last bit of it. Every team has a figure they don't want to exceed in terms of payroll, even the Yankees.

Conclusion:

The argument is whether he is overrated or not. I believe John Kruk said awhile back that he would rather have Derek Jeter over Alex Rodriguez. Based on what? Intangibles? Leadership? This is one of the reasons why he is overrated, because he is simply not as good as Arod when it comes to hitting or fielding. The media over estimates how great Jeter really is. No one calls him the BEST but many consider him to be ONE OF the best. As I already stated, he has never given the Yankees a home town discount, and he probably wont when they negotiate his next contract. How does he put the Yankees first? I just don't see it.

Sources:

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[3] http://www.baseballprospectus.com...
[4] http://www.baseball-reference.com...
Danielle

Con

[[ Re: OFFENSE ]]

Pro admits that Jeter is an above average offensive player, and does not contend the fact that he is consistent. As I've said thus far, nobody - including the media - pretends that Derek Jeter is among the leagues elite offensive players. Instead, he's praised for his consistency. His above average numbers are routine. You know what to expect from him and he delivers. He doesn't promise to be a power hitter, slugger or big HR hitter. Instead he has proven to be the perfect lead-off batter: good eye, patient, good OBP, valuable base runner, etc. This is exactly what the media and fans have come to expect of Jeter and love him for. In order to justify the notion that he's overrated, Pro has the burden of proving that Jeter does not meet sensationalized expectations.

[[ Re: THE CLUTCH ]]

Bill James wonders how a not-so-great hitter suddenly becomes a better hitter when the game's on the line. Indeed he brings up a good question of whether or not being in a tough situation will suddenly make someone better than they really are. However, on the contrary I believe that the concept of clutch is more about what players can not work well under pressure as opposed to who suddenly "becomes better."

I don't think anyone can become "better than they are" in a clutch situation, but rather a player who is good in the clutch is one who does not perform below their average when the game is on the line. Indeed psychology is huge factor in sports; to deny its influence is ignorant. Why do you think the crowd screams louder when their opposing team is shooting a free throw, kicking a FG, etc? The point is to distract the player or rattle their nerves. A good "clutch player" is one who does not let the burden of a big situation distract them or effect them negatively. Some players seem to demonstrate "playing better" in clutch situations but I disagree with that assessment.

I would not be so foolish to assert that a player will somehow have magical powers to be better in a tough spot. Instead, I think a player who is patient and focused can learn how to not let pressure impact them in a bad way and perform to the best of their psychological ability (and let the laws of nature do the rest). Concentration is a learned skill that tends to come with experience. That's why players who have never been in the post-season, for instance, sometimes seem less comfortable than veterans. Derek Jeter is praised and called "Captain Clutch" because while A-Rod is the better hitter, he has struggled in the post-season for instance ("when it counted") whereas Jeter's experience and familiarity with being a Yankee in that situation before helped him or at least did not psychologically affect him like the situation affected A-Rod.

[[ Re: DEFENSE ]]

Pro says that Derek Jeter tries too hard to make an easy play look spectacular. I think this contradicts Pro's assessment about him having short range. If he contends that Jeter has short range (which I admit he does), then in order to make those "big plays" or difficult plays that require range he's going to have to work extra hard... and maybe dive into a stand or two. Jeter has to jump and dive more than others because he's not as agile. Still, he works hard on his fitness and agility and whatever he lacks in physique he makes up for in mental toughness and willingness to go the extra mile to make those big plays - even if they require some grandeur gesture. Who cares if he makes himself look good in the process? The bottom line is that he gets the job done.

Pro says, "Lets not forget though, that he took three full strides after catching the ball and before he went into the stands. If it wasn't for the bloody face, it wouldn't be as remembered." Clearly Pro has either never played baseball or knows nothing whatsoever about the laws of physics if he can't understand how one's velocity and rate of speed plus impact determines the way and place one falls. The fact that Jeter would be willing to get bloody just to make a play shows a lot of guts... especially because if he had missed, he wouldn't be the hero with the bloody nose but rather just the bloody doofus.

Regarding Pro's numbers about Jeter costing his team 100 runs or 10 wins, I would like to see proof of this. Prove that Jeter's performance alone has cost his team ANY games or wins. I would like details and stats about botched plays; particularly ones regarding runs. Until we see any proof then all we have is Pro's word. Pro's word against the word of fans who are hard on their players (New Yorkers are an INFAMOUSLY tough crowd) and yet who still consider Jeter one of the consistent greats. Former teammate Darryl Strawberry said, "I told him early on to avoid the pitfalls that plagued me. New York is a place that can swallow you up if you're not able to handle the pressure of success-and of failure. He handles it with class and dignity."

[[ Re: THE TEAM ]]

Pro begins by saying that Jeter being a Yankee has nothing to do with the team's success, because winning is a team accomplishment. Notice how this is directly contradictory to Pro's previous statement that Jeter alone cost his team several losses. Hmm. I spy a huge flaw in logic. I agree, however, that Jeter alone is not responsible for the success of the Yankees. We do have several important factors to consider though. For one, Jeter is an infamously good leader and teammate; he presents an allure for other players to want to join him and the Yankees because of his experience and reputation. For another thing, Jeter has consistently demonstrated poise and success in the Post Season.

Again, if Pro wants to compare A-Rod to DJ and suggest that the Yankees would have won more games with A-Rod at SS, then he's going to have to provide some kind of stats or proof -- otherwise it's just speculation with no backing. We could sit here all day and come up with "what if" scenarios but that doesn't make any of it true. Not to mention that A-Rod has a better arm than Jeter meaning I think they made the right decision with keeping Jeter at SS. I think A-Rod adjusted better than Jeter could have.

In a Jeter vs. A-Rod debate, A-Rod's abilities prevail and that's why he's the highest paid player on The Yankees. However Derek's Jeter reputation and success do not revolve SOLELY around his performance on the baseball field. He has charisma, charm and class. His attitude and work ethic are respectable and attractive. A-Rod has said about his captain, "Derek makes this team go. What happens out there begins with him." Former manager Joe Torre said, "This kid, right now, the tougher the situation, the more fire he gets in his eyes. You don't teach that." Yankees owner George Steinbrenner boasts, "The name Derek Jeter is made for stardom. He's got an infectious smile, and he's so handsome and well-behaved. He's just a fine young man who does everything right... Some guys come along who just measure up."

[[ Re: CONCUSION ]]

Derek Jeter is a superstar for all of the reasons and quotes I've mentioned above. He plays in one of the harshest cities in the world (in terms of pressure and criticism) yet he measures up year after year. For New Yorkers, it's not just about numbers but the way you play the game in general but also the impact you have on the people around you. So far Derek Jeter has done nothing but bring his team up. Everybody who ever has the privilege of playing with him has nothing but good things to say about his ability, talent and character. The fact that he's done so well and helped lead his team to so many momentous wins, as well as always performs consistently among the best in the league and especially in tough situations only helps his reputation. His reputation is deserved and the media does not exaggerate or overrate his abilities; rather they celebrate the ones he has.

Quotes: http://www.baseballist.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Metsfan57

Pro

Offense:

How would you define the word 'consistent'? Is it playing on a similar level day in and day out? I can assure you that Jeter is not consistent based on this definition. No player is. Almost every player has good games and bad games, along with hot streaks and cold streaks, even Jeter. Every player goes through games where they go 4-5 and then the next they go 0-4. It happens, even to Jeter. Or do you mean playing on the same level year after year with little fluctuation in statistical measurements? Lets see. So far in 2010, Jeter has a .345 wOBA through 58 games. Not very Jeter-like. In 2009, he had one of the best years of his career, boasting a .390 wOBA. And in 2008, he had arguably the worst season of his career offensively, with only a .343 wOBA [1]. This isn't very 'consistent'.

Clutch:

I understand what Con means when saying "A good 'clutch player' is one who does not let the burden of a big situation distract them or effect them negatively." Don't forget though, clutch situations occur all throughout the season, not just during the post season. Most people believe that clutch hitters rise up to get the big hit in clutch situations and that non clutch hitters usually perform much worse than they usually do in those situations. The people that argue against this say that no matter how good a player may be in the clutch, in a large number of plate appearances, their clutch numbers will look remarkably similar to their regular numbers. Which is just the case for Jeter. In his career he has a .375 wOBA, in high leverage situations, he has a .379 wOBA [2]. You may try to say that his high leverage wOBA is higher, so therefore he must be clutch. But keep in mind that he only has 454 plate appearance in these situations. Less than a seasons worth compared to 10086 career plate appearances. So those .004 points are not statistically significant. That is the point to be made here, that a player does not perform better or worse in these situations compared to their overall career numbers.

Con brought up how Arod has performed in the post season compared to Jeter, primarily, how Arod has struggled. This is true, but he only has a handful of post season plate appearances. Lets examine how Arod has done in higher leverage situations just like we did Jeter. Throughout his career he has a .411 wOBA. In higher leverage situations, in which he has 506 plate appearances, he has a .417 wOBA [3]. He hasn't perfomed any worse than he has in his career according to wOBA.

That is the point I am trying to make. That players perform similarly during clutch situations as they do during their career. In order for Jeter to be considered clutch, he would have to have performed much better during these higher leveraged situations compared to his overall numbers. But he hasn't. I believe I've proven all there is to be proven here, Jeter isn't any more clutch than any other player, even Alex Rodriguez. That being said, he isn't any less clutch either.

Defense:

I don't understand Con's point right here. If Jeter actually had good range, he would be able to make these "spectacular" plays look like what they are: average plays. He might even then be able to make real spectacular plays like other good shortstops do. I don't see at all how having "mental toughness and willingness to go the extra mile" makes up for lacking physique on the diamond. "The bottom line is that he gets the job done." The point is that he DOESN'T get the job done. He has repeatedly ranked near the bottom of all shortstops defensively, year after year. If he actually had good range, he would be able to save more balls in play from being base hits, thus saving runs from scoring for the opposing team and helping his team win more ballgames. That's all it comes down to.

Let me say that after examining the play, I admit that it was a tough play and that at the speed he was running it would have hard to pull up in time. And yes, I have played baseball, have you? But what does this really prove in your argument? Did Jeter really deserve the Gold Glove in 2004 based solely on this play? No, absolutely not. The only reason this play is remembered as much as it is, is because he plays in New York and because of the bloody face. Lets not forget, in the 2004 ALCS, Juan Uribe made an equally spectacular play, he neither plays in New York or cut up his face. As far as who did deserve the Gold Glove that year, it's Julio Lugo. He was worth 12.2 runs with the glove in 2004, while Jeter ranked seventh in the AL with -0.7. Meaning he cost his team almost one run with the glove that year [4].

As far as providing proof of Jeter costing the Yankees 100 runs over his career with the glove, this number is determined based on statistical models that apply a certain fraction of runs to every ball put into play [5]. I mentioned two of these models a few rounds back - Ultimate Zone Rating and Defensive Runs Saved. The number of runs he's cost his team over his career, 106.6, is found near the bottom of the page under 'Fielding'.

The Team:

I never stated that Jeter has nothing to do with the team's success. However, most people try to make the argument that he is not overrated because he has five championship rings. This is illogical because a team winning a championship cannot be attributed to one player, as there are 25 players on the team until September. Jeter has been worth wins for his team, 70 of them actually, over his career. I said that he has cost his team 10 wins WITH HIS GLOVE. There is no flaw in logic presented in my argument, Con just knows very little about Sabermetrics in order to interpret what my argument is primarily about. The rest of their paragraph is about intangibles, and of course, intangibles cannot be measured in any way. If you're going to say these intangibles help the team in at all, it's going to have to be proven in some way or another.

Considering Arod was worth more runs with his glove while he played shortstop for the Mariners and Rangers than Jeter was for the Yankees, it is obvious that he would have saved more runs at SS than Jeter would after he came to the Yankees. This means he would have helped win more games, too. Also, one of Jeter's strong points is a strong arm, his weak points include bad range. He would have adjusted just fine.

Again more immeasurable intagibles. Would all of that have mattered if he was a bad baseball player? The media and fans rate players primarily by their play on the field. There is no denying this.

Conclusion:

How is his reputation deserved and not exaggerated? The media has given him the names 'Mr. November' and 'Captain Clutch'. They exaggerate his fielding abilities which is why he has as many gold gloves as he does. He is a good player, but he is not as good a player as they media says he is, and they've been saying it since the late 90's.

Sources:

[1] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[2] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[3] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[4] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[5] http://www.fangraphs.com...
Danielle

Con

== Re: OFFENSE ==

Pro asks what I consider to be consistent. Clearly one does not expect Jeter or anyone else to perform the same in every game. As Pro said, there will be good games and bad. However what I meant regarding Jeter's consistency was his consistency to be above average offensively year after year. For instance, the league batting average is somewhere around .266 [1] but Jeter finished last season with the 3rd highest batting average in the American League with .334 [2]. So, to answer Pro's questions, doing well consistently to me means performing among the elite offensive players every season (well above average) which Jeter has proven he can do. Jeter is just 1 of 6 players to have earned 2,700 hits, 1,500 runs scored, 220 home runs, 300 stolen bases, and 1,000 RBI's. His postseason numbers are equally impressive as in 138 games Jeter has a batting average of .313 with 20 home runs and 55 RBI's [3].

Additionally, while Pro mentions that Jeter's wOBA numbers are slightly behind his last year's averages, let us not forget that baseball season has JUST STARTED -- we're not even half-way through, and we can expect that Jeter and the Yankees will be playing well into the fall. If you look back at his progression throughout the season, we can see that he tends to improve as the season continues overall raising his averages by the end.

In short, all we have to do is look to Jeter's offensive accomplishments which have garnered not only himself praise, but his performance and overall leadership which has helped boost his team to the top by both attracting new talent, proving to be a good captain and friend, and overall just continuing to impress New York's tough fans and management year after year. Some more notables are worth-mentionings are the fact that Jeter ranks 2nd in team history with games played; 1st in at-barts; 4th in runs scored; FIRST IN HITS; 3rd in doubles, 10th in HRs and RBIs and FIFTH IN BATTING AVERAGE [3]. Again, this is the NY Yankees we're talking about -- they certainly have had their fair share of superstars to compete with.

== re: THE CLUTCH ==

Pro points out that clutch situations occur all throughout the season and not just the post-season. I would agree with that, though it's kind of irrelevant. He also says that arguments against The Clutch refer to one's batting average overall remaining the same regardless of whether or not a clutch situation arises. First and foremost, I would like to see proof of this assertion, or rather an explanation of the link (#2) that Pro provided because I can't seem to find where his source cites this. Second, something like this is only calcuable if one finds themself recording the performance of a player over many clutch situations over many seasons. I highly doubt that adequate research and stats have been done on this sort of thing; maybe if I see some tangible evidence I can have a better idea of what I'm supposed to refute.

As far as what I have been saying, one's overall personality and comfort (which tends to come with experience and familiarity in big situations i.e. the Post Season) definitely has a mental impact on the way one plays the game. Even if one's numbers remain consistent, a person's attitude in the clutch often refers to their poise and ability to either be effected or not effected by the level of importance their individual performance carries in a particular situation. Specifically, clutch playing refers to one's ability to remain level-headed in tough situations, or who you'd like to see have the pressure in a game-making situation (such as Kobe Bryant when you're down by 2 with 2 seconds on the clock, or Rivera pitching when it's a 2 out bottom of the 9th scenario for New York) [4].

One thing I did notice about the source Pro uses consistently in his last round is that it cites Jeter as among the best shortstops in the MLB. It notes, "If the season ended today, Jeter would have the best ISO he's had in eleven years(!), so it's safe to say that he may even approach his career high in home runs this year. A twenty-twenty season would make Jeter a solid top option, and depending on Rollins' final batting average and steals total, and Tulowitzki's home run total, he may even be a top-3 shortstop by the end of the year" [5]. The site ranks him as the 4th best SS at the moment though he has the 2nd best OBA.

In regard to Jeter vs. A-Rod situations or clutch situations, I'm not quite sure why my opponent tries to prove that A-Rod is better. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. In fact I've embraced A-Rod from Day 1 unlike most Yankee fans - many of whom are still warming up to him. A-Rod is a phenomenal player, but again that's irrelevant to this debate. It's not about proving that Jeter's the best (which I've never contended) but rather the fact that he's not overrated. In other words, I am trying to prove that he deserves the praise and recognition he gets. I would stand by that even if the Clutch didn't exist. Nevertheless I stand by the position that Clutch situations exist and some players handle it better than others. Regardless, there are certain players you'd like to see have the pressure on them in certain situations specifically because of their ability to remain collected. Even if the stats and numbers turn out to be the same as Pro implies, it doesn't matter because Derek Jeter is still one of those people you'd trust in that kind of tough situation which is exactly why players consider him consistent and Captain Clutch.

== re: DEFENSE ==

Jeter has admittedly lost a step as he aged. However, he was considered one of the best defensive players not too long ago. His range used to be 40 points above the league's other SS's. In 2009, his numbers improved and his performance was regarded as above average [6]. Additionally, again Pro's own source seems to consider the 3rd best defensive SS of the 2009 season [7]. How can Pro say he continues to fall short year after year when he's actually considered among the best? Pro's speculation about whether or not Jeter deserved the Golden Glove awards or not is irrelevant; there is always controversy and typically the award is not given to the most deserving player. The fact is that Jeter won 3 of them, and Pro saying that he won only because of his play resulting in a bloody nose is again nothing but speculation. Moreover Jeter's assessment is correct in responding to these criticisms when he notes things like how formulas aren't always terribly accurate; for instance whether you're behind a pitcher prone to throw ground-outs or fly balls for instance effects numbers.

== re: TEAM/CONCLUSION ==

Pro says that the factors I mentioned indicating Jeter's greatness are irrelevant because they cannot be measured. However Pro's numbers and assumptions cannot be measured or proven either. For instance he presumes that A-Rod would have been the better Yankee SS, but he cannot prove this as nobody knows what could have happened or what would have happened had the circumstances been different. The bottom line is that Jeter is valued for things other than his performance as a player which I've explained at length, though his performance has been memorable to say the least. He's embraced and praised for exactly what he is: classy and consistent. He's not the best player but a model player.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://espn.go.com...
[3] http://outsidetheboxscore.blogspot.com...
[4] http://espn.go.com...
[5] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[6] http://sports.yahoo.com...
[7] http://www.fangraphs.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Metsfan57

Pro

Offense:

Con's definition of 'consistent' is to be above average offensively year after year, and "performing among the elite offensive players every season (well above average)." However, I don't think many would deny that consistency is marked by having very little statistical variation. As I stated in the previous round, Jeter preceded one of his best offensive seasons(2009 with a wOBA of .390) with his worst offensive season(2008 with a wOBA of .343). That isn't consistent. Compare this to Hanley Ramirez, who in 2009 had a .410 wOBA and a .405 wOBA in 2008. And even .411 in 2008. This is consistent. Three years with a wOBA within 6 points of each other[1].

While it is true that he will probably improve upon his current .346 wOBA, don't try to act like the season "JUST STARTED". We are 59 games in and already Jeter is playing worse than expected. He has a 6.0 BB%, which is walks divided by plate appearances. This is down from his 8.9 career BB%. He has an O-Swing% of 30.1%. This is up from last years 22.2% and his 19.9 career percentage. O-Swing% is the percentage of pitches a batter swings at outside the strike zone. So he's swinging at more bad pitches. His Line Drive Percentage (LD%) is also down to 16.7 percent, down from last seasons 20.3 percent[2].

As far as Con's point that "Jeter ranks 2nd in team history with games played; 1st in at-barts; 4th in runs scored; FIRST IN HITS; 3rd in doubles, 10th in HRs and RBIs", what did you expect? Runs, hits, doubles, HRs and RBIs are COUNTING statistics. Con even pointed out that Jeter is 2nd in games player and 1st in at bats. He's been on the team for 15 years, it isn't surprising that his counting stats like hits has become the best in franchise history. By the way, he plays on the Yankees, he scores a lot of runs because other good players, like Arod, drive him in. Sure, he gets on base, but just because he has a lot of runs scored does not mean he has some innate ability to score runs. It just means the hitters behind him in the lineup are good at driving in runners.

Clutch:

I fail to see how my statement that clutch situations occur during the season is irrelevant. It's more relevant than just post season numbers because of the lack of post season at bats most players have. The link, number two, was Derek Jeter's career splits, how he performs by month, by home and away, etc. In the 'Advanced' section, wOBA is listed. At the bottom of that section, there are his splits by leverage index, low, medium, and high. High leverage situations are regarded as 'clutch'. Clutch is no longer referred to so arbitrarily, it has a definitive meaning. This is what high leverage is. What I am trying to explain, and have already explained, is that if Jeter was really more clutch than other players, he would have a wOBA in clutch situations much higher than his overall, career, wOBA. As it stands, his clutch wOBA is .378 while his career wOBA is .374. No major difference at all. It's right where it's supposed to be. You would be surprised at how much research and stats have been put into determining clutch ability. I believe I've provided all the evidence I need. I've already used "Clutch", and how poorly it correlates from year to year, and I've compared his clutch wOBA to his normal wOBA. What else is there to argue? I'd like to point out that Con has not yet tried to argue that Jeter is clutch, yet they are trying to defend against my evidence that proves he is not clutch.

I'd also like to point out that this is the Major Leagues. The biggest stage in the world. Every player must feel comfortable, or else they wouldn't be able to perform at all in front of 40,000 fans, even during the unclutchest of situations.

The paragraph about my sources and that quote: That article was written on May 1st of this year. With less than one month of baseball played. Whatever statistics that were available at that time were unreliable due to small sample sizes. This had nothing to do with being 'clutch' and is irrelevant.

The only reason I've kept bringing up the Arod vs Jeter debate is because Con brought up how much better Jeter has done in the post season and how bad Arod has done. Con used this to determine Jeter was more clutch than Arod. I, however, refuted this argument with my "high leverage" evidence.

"Even if the stats and numbers turn out to be the same as Pro implies, it doesn't matter because Derek Jeter is still one of those people you'd trust in that kind of tough situation which is exactly why players consider him consistent and Captain Clutch." Well, I don't know what to say other than what I have been saying throughout this entire debate, a concept that Con is yet to grasp. Jeter has not done significantly better in 'clutch situations' that he would need to in order to be labeled as clutch. He's performed right where his career numbers indicated he would perform. The same goes for Arod.

Defense:

Actually, Jeter has GAINED a step as he's aged, it wasn't until 2009 that he had a very well above average fielding season. If Con payed any attention to Fielding numbers at all, they would have noticed that his numbers were all negative except for 1998, 2002, and 2009. He has improved, but that does not negate the fact that he had twelve seasons with below average fielding numbers. I'd like to see evidence of him being 40 points above the leagues other shortstops. "How can Pro say he continues to fall short year after year when he's actually considered among the best?" As I've just noted, you cannot say he is a good fielder because of one season. One season does not change the fact that he cost his team 100 runs over his career with his glove, a fact that I can't help but notice Con has ignored. Possibly because they cant refute it?

"Derek Jeter of the New York Yankees has been one of the consistently worst defensive shortstops playing today [3]."

How is my speculation that Jeter didn't deserve his Gold Gloves irrelevant? I'm trying to prove he is overrated. The fact that he is a bad fielder and that he still won three gold glove awards is completely relevant. Giving him gold gloves makes him look like a good fielder. Which he is not, thus overrating him.

Conclusion:

The difference about my speculation and cons is that their's is based on something that in no way can be measured. Mine is based on mathamatical models that mathamaticians and sabermetricans have spent much time on researching to derive. I'm pretty sure mine can be taken with a little more weight. I said that Arod would have been a better Yankee SS because he was a BETTER SS than Jeter was. It's so clearly obvious. The last point may be true, or may not, you can't prove it, the fact of the matter is this: He is not offensively consistent, he is not clutch, he is not a good fielder, or even average, and he does not care about winning as much as many people believe he does due to his high salary and unwillingness to change positions for the good of the team. All of this contribute to why he is overrated, which I have supported with tons of fact and evidence.

I would like to point out to any potential voters how I have continually backed my claims with numbers and statistics that have been created by credible members of the Sabermetric community. My opponent has done everything but this. There is no overwhelming evidence to support their position. At most they have relied on statistics will little credibility (batting average, fielding percentage, RBIs) or on intangibles that cannot be measured. Finally, I believe I have more accurately supported my position by proving all there is to be proven in regards to this debate.

[1] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[2] http://www.fangraphs.com...
[3] http://www.scienceline.org...
Danielle

Con

Basically this debate comes down to whether or not Derek Jeter is overrated, i.e. rated too highly, overestimated, or given unwarranted praised. I negate on all accounts. For one thing, Derek Jeter isn't "rated" as in baseball numbers (stats) speak for themselves and rate a player's performance to a set standard - not a player's performance against each other. Derek Jeter was never and probably will never be rated the #1 baseball player - either in present day or history - or even the #1 SS in the league, etc. So, Derek Jeter was never rated too highly.

People don't expect things of Jeter in terms of acquiring a substantial new skill. We know DJ is a good lead off hitter who you can expect a decent woba, obp, ba from, etc. However, he's not one to homer or get a great slugging percentage. The point is that people know what to expect from Jeter, and what he does - he does well. He also does it with style, class and a general presence that apparently resonates with his team, his coaches, his opponents, the media, the fans, and NY fans in particular.

Let's be honest. Derek Jeter is far from being among THE best, and I never argued that he was anywhere near it. What I did say is that Derek Jeter is above average in terms of offensive performance. We can sit here all day and argue about what 'consistency' means but let's keep it real: We know what consistency means. We know that Derek Jeter is consistently above average in terms of offensive numbers. Period. His numbers may fluctuate a few points here and there, but the point is that you can count on him to be above average. You can count on him to do his job.

Now, I'll admit that Derek Jeter's defensive performance has had its ups and downs - mostly downs. But in order to prove that his defense is overrated, Pro would have had to prove that somewhere along the line Jeter's defense was hailed where praise was not warranted. The ONLY example Pro gave was him winning the Golden Gloves. According to Pro, Jeter won because he made a play in which he got a bloodied nose and the media played it up (when the play wasn't really all that difficult). For what it's worth, I happen to think that it was an excellent play. Regardless, even if it took more effort from Jeter than necessary, the point was that he was willing to take a beating to make the play successfully. More importantly, this play was only made during ONE season - so how can that account for the 2 other G. Gloves?

Pro agreed that many times the GG is given not to the best defensive player, but the defensive player who STOOD OUT the most in a particular season. Pro himself said this. So, if we can agree that while Derek Jeter was not the best defensive player - and nobody said he was - the fact is that his play (the one with the bloody nose, and apparently a few others) was THE MOST MEMORABLE PLAY for whatever reason. In fact, I'm sure the bloody nose helped its notorority. However, if the GG is about most famous plays, than Jeter deserved the award, eh? This is logical.

Alright so let's talk about the clutch. Again, we can sit here all day and talk about crunching numbers and in the end Pro is probably right about the statistics. However, we can agree that clutch situations exist, and we can agree that psychology plays a part in sports. If we agree that comfort with things comes with experience, then we can agree that Derek Jeter - given the success of the teams he's been on - has been in a lot of clutch situations and games just considering the number of times he's been fortunate enough to play in big games (like say a World Series, which many players don't even get to experinnce let alone win FIVE TIMES and lose some too). The point is, we should be able to agree that Jeter would probably be more comfortable in a tough situation than say a rookie, therefore he is statistically less likely to choke. In other words, the chances of success may be the same for every player but their chances of failure are different depending on a number of variable conditions.

So let's see what this debate really comes down to. Is Derek Jeter overrated? I say no. Derek Jeter is not paid the highest salary on the Yankees because he's earned it with his skill (like A-Rod and Sabathia who are better players and earn more). I'd argue that players like Cano and maybe even Brett Gardner are better than DJ right now. However, like it or not, Derek Jeter is not paid (AND PRAISED) so high for his playing but rather for the other things he brings to the team. Pro can say that there is no "tangible evidence" of this IT factor but the fact is that we all know he has it. If he didn't, then he wouldn't have the whole city of New York (Yankee fans anyway) eating out of the palm of his hand. And the thing is - who's to say he doesn't deserve it? Apparently the Yankees and New Yorkers in general love him for what he is and what he allegedly brings to their team.

As far as I'm concerned, Pro hasn't proven exactly how and why DJ is overrated. He says that the Yankees would have been just as successful without Jeter, but how can that be so? Without a 'friend' in Jeter or at least one who stood by him in the press, who's to say A-Rod would have adjusted in NY? Some don't think he even fully has. Who's to say young players like Texiera would have even been so interested in the Yankees if not for the fame and prestige of playing in the WS?

The thing is, YOU EARN SOMETHING for having been in so many championships. People think "I wanna be where Derek Jeter is." That's why winning is something athletes value and strive for. Consider LeBron James; his ONLY GOAL right now in terms of contract above money and all else is the prestige and ultimate fame (and mhm money will come too) that comes after winning. Jeter has won so many with the Yankees, albeit many by chance of him having the good fortune to stay on the team for so long. However, the title of 'leader' is something he's taken on and apparently earned. He always takes responsibility and steps up. He always performs above average in terms of offense. Sometimes he's among the most offensive elite; for instance he's the 4th best offensive SS in the leage right now. He's apparently doing SOMETHING RIGHT because the Yankees have stayed with him. If he wasn't so valuable, why didn't they give his SS spot to A-Rod? If he wasn't so valuable, why haven't they traded him for a better player by now? The fact is that he brings SOMETHING to that team - whether it's energy, media attention, confidence, some performance or even just money alone. Remember that money is what *literally* drives the sport and keeps it functioning.

The Yankees are as successful as they are largely in part due to their fortunate financial circumstance to offer lucrative contracts to the best players. Derek Jeter most definitely contributes in that area regarding his popularity. So yes. Derek's resume alone and respect from everyone around him which I've proven through quotes and citations explains that he has that IT quality that just makes him a star baseball player. Again, nobody says and has ever said he was THE BEST baseball player - just a great player and A STAR. Is he worthy of being a star? I say yes. I say if it were easy, other players would be like him. But he stands out. He's "number 2 in our programs, number 1 in our hearts."

We know Jeter is not a bad defensive players in terms of costing us the game, and we know he's as good if not one of the best clutch performers on the Yanks offensively (and consistently). He's worth every penny for what he brings to New York - even if it's just that warm fuzzy feeling inside. Apparently it's worth something to people. And really, that's what baseball (and all sports) are all about. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if you can hit a ball very far. Jeter somehow manages to impress everybody. Kudos to him.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by LeafRod 4 years ago
LeafRod
Arguing whether or not someone is overrated is just stupid because there is always an expansive spectrum of opinion on a player and it's basically impossible to show that one side significantly outweighs the other. I would suggest that in a subsequent overrated debate PRO provide some source which he or she claims is overrating the player.
Posted by Metsfan57 4 years ago
Metsfan57
And you haven't proven that his praise comes solely from his off the field demeanor and not his on the field performance. I think most will agree with me that media attention comes primarily from good performance. He wouldn't be a Yankee after all these years if he couldn't play and if all he had to offer was his character and leadership.
Posted by Danielle 4 years ago
Danielle
What you "always hear" isn't what you've proven. You didn't provide any proof that Jeter's actual baseball performance was overrated (except for the G. Glove thing which I've answered to).
Posted by Metsfan57 4 years ago
Metsfan57
What didn't I annihilate? I gave my reasoning for why he is overrated and I presented evidence that supports all four of my claims. The majority of Con's argument was based on intangibles such as character and leadership. But again, would the media and fans still think so highly of him if he were a bad baseball player? No, these things come after performance on the field. I never said he was considered the best, I said he was overrated. I always hear praise about his defense, be it after a play like the dive into the stands, or just the the Jeter trademark jump and throw, I always hear how great of a fielder he is. People think that because he makes his plays look great. An average shortstop would make the play look much easier. I always hear about his amazing clutchness, due to a couple key home runs or base hits, I already showed that he's no more clutch than any other player. You hear about him being a great leader, whether that is true cant be proved. Mostly though, you hear about how great a player he is, not that he is the best, no one ever says that, but that he is a great all around player. Like you said, "to be overrated means people are giving him praise where it's not due", this is exactly the case.
Posted by Danielle 4 years ago
Danielle
My stance, quite simply, is that DJ isn't considered to be a great baseball player because of his skill. His reputation is because of his character. Regardless of how retarded that sounds or irrelevant that seems to you, people simply like the whole goody goody wholesome loyal teammate swell kinda guy routine he's got going on. And the guy's experienced, and won a crap ton of championships. He's praised more for his effort and overall game mentality and showmanship than his abilities. Nobody expects DJ to be among the best. They expect him to be offensively above average, and he is. Nobody expects much from him defensively -- we've known he's been up and down (mostly down) for quite awhile. But to be overrated means people are giving him praise where it's not due; my point is that all the praise he gets is usually about being a great team leader and such. Nobody calls/considers him the best.
Posted by LeafRod 4 years ago
LeafRod
Scratch that. I'll give this a TIE. As is the case in any argument where "overrated" isn't adequately defined, this was just a bit too all over the place. However, PRO should have done a better job.
Posted by LeafRod 4 years ago
LeafRod
Yeah. Derek Jeter is pretty frickin' overrated.
Posted by Vi_Veri 4 years ago
Vi_Veri
lol, seriously Leafrod?
Posted by LeafRod 4 years ago
LeafRod
Meh, not easily. PRO should have done a better job of annihilating everything CON said. I'd still give it to PRO though.
Posted by LeafRod 4 years ago
LeafRod
Arguments to PRO easily.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by JpoteetDebateNN 4 years ago
JpoteetDebateNN
Metsfan57DanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Vote Placed by Atheism 4 years ago
Atheism
Metsfan57DanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Danielle 4 years ago
Danielle
Metsfan57DanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03