The Instigator
jat93
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
jaweber1
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points

Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/1/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 14,413 times Debate No: 11950
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (11)
Votes (7)

 

jat93

Con

Destiny is a matter of chance. If destiny is your choice, than it is within your control. Destiny by definition is something (an event, or a series of events) that will inevitably occur in the future. Nobody can ever be sure that something(s) will inevitably happen in the future. Therefore, destiny is not a matter of choice.
jaweber1

Pro

Thank you Con, for an interesting debate topic.

As my Resolution is posted above, I will begin by quoting Merriam-Webster's dictionary to eliminate all sources of personal bias or otherwise opinionated versions of the definition. M.W. states that destiny is "a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency."

With this new definition, it necessary to reveal additional definitions in order to fully grasp the meaning. M. W. defines:

(1)An Event as – " something that happens."
(2)An Action as – "AN ACT OF WILL"
(3)Will as - "something desired; especially : a choice"

If something happens – it was because of some action. This is a very basic theory of cause and effects laws, where a cause must be present to receive an effect. By this analysis, we can infer that an Event is caused by an Action, an Action is "An act of Will", and Will is merely a choice. Through a process of simplification and substitution of words, we can further deduce that an Event is caused by an act of will or choice.

Thus destiny is "a predetermined course of events [caused by an act of choice] often held to be an irresistible power or agency."

If you feel like you are experiencing d�j� vu have no fear because I have indeed mirrored my resolution, that destiny is a matter of choice, through a straight-forward unbiased medium – the Merriam Webster dictionary.

I will now allow the Con to attempt a rebuttal.

The sources for the provided definitions are provided below.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com... (noun)
Debate Round No. 1
jat93

Con

Thank you pro, for an interesting response.

Any event is indeed caused by some kind of action, any action is an act of will, and will is merely a choice. But is it possible to say with absolute certainty that any specific event will occur in the future? No, it is not. Maybe we would be able to say destiny is a matter of choice if any choice we made, therefore any action we took, and therefore any event that occurred was entirely in our control. We cannot, though, because unfortunately in our world there are external factors that could potentially impede the actions which we decide to take.

To assert what you have asserted is to assert that any thing we decide to do within the realm of physical possibilities is not only possible, not only probable, but guaranteed. That is not realistic. Even if one legitimately devotes their life to tend to the "destiny" they wish to fulfill, there is always the chance and indeed the probability that something will eventually get in their way. That is not to sound pessimistic, it is the truth - and it is certainly not to say that one should give up on life, all they want to accomplish, and not bother trying. People do generally accomplish the things that they seriously put effort into. But - there is a chance that I should want to talk to my friends house tomorrow and get struck by a car as I cross the block - that would not be a matter of choice. The very course of events that I have described will most likely happen to somebody in the world in the not so distant future. Their destiny will not be something they chose.

Destiny would only fully be in our control if one had the world to himself, without anyone to get in their way. Perhaps there is a student in a Science class as we speak with a teacher that he loves, respects, and admires. That could potentially lead the child to become more interested in the field of Science which could in turn lead him to get a job related to science, all because of the teacher that sparked his interest in it. The boy could go on to make revolutionary discoveries and with them millions of dollars. Or, perhaps the same student is in a Science class with a teacher he hates, has no respect for, and finds extremely boring. The same student that could have went on to become a multi-millionaire scientist could be "turned off" of the subject of science by his mean, boring teacher, which could in turn lead him to get a job related to something completely unrelated to science, which could in turn stop him from making the revolutionary discoveries and millions of dollars that were made, in essence, because of the nice, interesting, admirable science teacher. One comparatively small effect on another persons behalf, completely out of ones control, can have a momentous effect on their destiny.

Another example is a student who worked hard to pass a course. He has to take a test in order to pass it. He has taken the action, an act of will, which is merely a choice, in order to cause the event. But the teacher gives him a test that proves too difficult for the student to pass. Was his destiny a matter of choice?

What you imply by saying that destiny is fully within our control is that we can control every aspect of our lives. I'm sure everyone would agree that if they could each individually control their own lives things would be better. One might even say it is a good thing that destiny is not within our control, because if it was, we would have no goals to overcome and life would become rather tedious. Life would become boring and maybe even pointless if our destiny was fully a matter of choice. There is always, for anything that happens in this universe, the slightest chance that the biggest effort will be ruined by the smallest coincidence. Maybe that is what keeps things interesting for us humans here on planet Earth.

To conclude, to say that destiny is within our control is sweet and encouraging but naive and fallacious. The definition of destiny itself (that you have provided), "a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency" says that there are events that no matter what one does or how hard he tries to change them, the people they involve will ultimately succumb to their destiny regardless.
jaweber1

Pro

That was indeed a rather strong argument Con and it would have been effective HAD I said that destiny was equivalent to our desires but I had not and it is not.

My definition defines that destiny is "a predetermined course of events [caused by an act of choice] often held to be an irresistible power or agency." You see I mention nothing of desire but of choice.

Your entire second argument is based on proving that circumstances outside the realm of control have the ability to negatively influence the future we plan for ourselves and I wholeheartedly agree. Though your counter argument is flawed because of your ASSUMPTION that "events [caused by an act of choice]" result in the achievement of out desires and this is not true.

In the example of your young Science prodigy desiring to become a teacher you state that his awful teachers effects on him were uncontrollable, a hidden variable. I agree, however, to state that choice was not the cause for this effect is preposterous. He CHOSE the science class, he CHOSE to ASSUME that all Science teachers were like this, and he CHOSE to leave the field of Science for an alternative field of study. I can not make it much clearer than this, that choice was the cause for his failure and that his destiny is unrelated to his desire because unlike like his desires, destiny is "a predetermined course of events [caused by an act of choice]".

The failing student falls under the same guidelines, he CHOSE the class, he CHOSE not to seek guidance from the teacher on the upcoming exam, and as a RESULT of his CHOICES he failed. In the case of your unfortunate death in a car accident on your way "to talk to [your] friends house", why you talk to your friends house is beyond me however, you CHOSE to drive, you CHOSE to travel to your friends house, and as a result you were struck by a car effecting your DESIRES but not your DESTINY.

In conclusion, my original argument stands unaltered due to your misconception between desire and destiny and your counter argument is void. Destiny is indeed caused by a matter of choice. Although your choices may not always yield results that favor your desires, the effects of your actions are always a direct reflection of your destiny.
Debate Round No. 2
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brndimarie 1 year ago
brndimarie
I agree with Con due to the theory of Drunkards Walk, the mechanics of quantum physics and the laws of probability. If you are somewhat familiar with any of these studies you then are aware that an action does not always achieve the same outcome, therefore it is only logical and safe to assume that we are not in complete control of destiny. None of us made the decision to be born in neither a certain region nor a certain family; however these are just two examples that factor into destiny.
Posted by mrge 4 years ago
mrge
and just clarifying.. you stated
"As I stated before, through all means available with all resources IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to determine rather such a thing as Destiny exist WHILE we remain living and to continue a debate any further than this is completely and utterly opinionated."

Let me clarify my argument. I didn't say man would know and I completely agree with you dude. There's no way man could ever know even with all the resources available to him. What I said was, for destiny to exists, meaning for a predetermined event to happen, you would need a SUPERNATURAL BEING to make it count and ONLY a SUPERNATURAL being can create a predetermined event because it is the only logical possible scenario for destiny ( a predetermined event ) to exist. What I stated in my argument was that if we do TALK about DESTINY. Because of this premise, WE have to FACTOR in a SUPERNATURAL BEING. Whether destiny exists or not is irrelevant to my my point because what I was pointing out was that IF we talk about it and ASSUME that destiny exists, than a supernatural being exists. That was my point and I was hoping that part of the argument would be attacked because I can't see a flaw in it myself.

That was my argument. I wasn't trying to argue that destiny exists and there is a God, I was trying to say that if we continue this debate, we would have to factor it in because it is required in the equation. There is no destiny without a supernatural being. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant, but during our discussion about it, we have to factor it in. That is all. But definitely, I'm down for a debate anytime! PM me or something hah
Posted by mrge 4 years ago
mrge
I see. My friend, the whole purpose philosophy was started was because man was curious about the world and wanted to learn the truth. Through logic and reasoning we can hope for the truth. Debating about topics no matter how arbitrary will eventually lead to the closest truth once we've exhausted all variable by discussing throughly. My goals are just to find that truth. When I see a questions such as this, my goal isn't to debate you, my goal is to find the truth and we obviously do that by debating each other, attacking each other's statements and finding the truth out it. I am not interesting in my own personal opinion although if i was I would be siding with you, that destiny would be a matter of choice. But as much as I want to, logic tells me otherwise.

Not only that, hiding from the truth if we do in fact find that it is likely that destiny exist would definitely by mind blowing and most of us would go insane but we would have to face the truth sometime. Running from it won't benefit anyone. I know you don't believe in destiny and frankly, I don't really think that is relevant. The reason why I replied and commented on this debate was to clarify and find that maybe we can find a solution to this question.

Again I don't want to sound preachy but until we find a flaw in the logic that was proposed, that it is for the time being can be concluded that it is the best logical answer until it is found false. But I definitely do enjoy debating as I imagine you would too since we are both in this website. There are many things I'd like to debate about and of course I would be glad to debate on any topic of your choosing that you think is important.

Let me know asap! Morals, what is evil and what is goo and whatever you think of would be awesome. I am new to the site, I got tired of talking to my peers and the adults around me because they got tired of debating... unfortunately I love it. Any topic really would be great.
Posted by jaweber1 4 years ago
jaweber1
If you would like we could debate on the topic of determining what is important.
Posted by jaweber1 4 years ago
jaweber1
more important issues in society.
Posted by jaweber1 4 years ago
jaweber1
I'm not here to debate with you, if you wanted to debate the topic you should have taken the Con.

As I stated before, through all means available with all resources IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to determine rather such a thing as Destiny exist WHILE we remain living and to continue a debate any further than this is completely and utterly opinionated.

To answer your question on predetermining things ourselves I would side with the Con with his rebuttal argument in which he stated that unforeseen variables may result in a change from our desired course of action, and in this case or perceived fortune. No matter the resources MAN can not fully determine the outcome of any given event fully 100 percent of the time. As Murphy says anything that can go wrong, will.

I don't make assumptions, nor should you. You should already know what happens when you make assume things You make an A.S.S out of U and ME. I have already mentioned I do not believe in destiny and I have already stated that any further conversation on the manner is purely opinionated.

The fact of the matter is - I don't care much for Philosophy unless it answers a question. This one has no answer, it is a dead end, the only way to prove me wrong is to die and even then I wouldn't know nor would it matter. You seem passionately involved with the topic and I don't mean to insult your feelings towards philosophy and other arbitrary matters but the fact of the matter is that regardless rather destiny exists or we make our own way through life, knowing the answer would only stop us from asking if it does exist.

If it does, you can't do a single thing about it because it controls you, if doesn't well than yippee you really do have full control of your life by your choices. I urge you to spend you time and passion on more concrete things or things that have an effect on society such as morals.Something that has the power to leave the world with an impression on society, a thought to alter minds on more import
Posted by mrge 4 years ago
mrge
cont from bottom comment...

in a higher power? Therefore in order to talk about destiny, we have to take account or factor in that in order for destiny to exist at all, there has to be some higher power or supernatural power to exist so that destiny can work. Is this agreed? That destiny cannot exist because we have no way or knowing unless we factor in that there is a super natural power or it could be one and the same. That destiny and the supernatural power the same. Since it knows all predetermined events that is bound to happen.

Let's say that there is an event happening right now. We can't say its predetermined until we can conclude or verify someway of knowing that it was actually predetermined. Otherwise, it would just be a regular event and therefore wouldn't be a destined event.

To separate out the normal event from a destined event (an event that is predetermined), we can reason out that the only way we can predetermine an event is to have an infinite amount of resources, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, and logic and having all these conditions met, we would be describing a supernatural being aren't we not? Therefore we can conclude that a supernatural being would only have to be in existence in order for that predetermined event to actually happen because only a supernatural being could actually predetermine an event, making it a destined event, which will seperate the regular events from the destined event. So adding up all the points I made, do we agree that in order for us to talk about destiny, we actually have to factor in that in order for destiny to exist, than there has to be a supernatural being or God?

And assumming that we believe in destiny, wouldn't this effectively point out that if destiny was to exist, than all events that are predetermined can be concluded that it is not a matter of choice after all?
Posted by mrge 4 years ago
mrge
I see.. Well there are many holes in this subject and would like to clear it up. To answer your question on the individual destiny vs single destiny, is through reasoning, I found that the best logical answer would be that all our destinies are tied together to some point that each effects each other to a certain extent.

So the meaning of Destiny is a predetermined event bound to happen. Is it not? There are many variations to this definition but lets get past that and conclude that the basic principle of destiny is that it is an event predetermined, and also will inevitable pass.

Now I would like to ask, and going back to the point where destiny knows what you are doing no matter what you do no matter how much you switch it up, destiny will know and the event that is bound to happen, will inevitablly happen. Do we agree on this so far?

Assuming that we do agree on it, here are couple of questions that I would ike to ask you.

So far we've been talking about destiny, and we've described what it does and what it is. how about, why? What is the purpose of destiny? How would we even know destiny exists? How do we know the event that is bound to happen has already passed us? We've been discussing whether we could control destiny but we actually have no idea how we can tell that event has pass? and while you think on that.. the following questions realted to it is..

If I was to bring up, Well.. destiny would need to have an infinite amount of resources, wisdom, knowledge, and logic for it to be able to do such a thing. It would go as a super natural thing is it not? Bear with me, it all is related to the point I'm about to make.

So if we were to look at these questions, meaning.. we would have to know some way that the event has pass to control destiny and not only that, to even know its exists, we have to take in that there has to be some cosmic supernatural power behind it. Therefore, in order to believe in destiny, don't we have to believe in
Posted by jaweber1 4 years ago
jaweber1
I agree and I believe that is covered by the definition of destiny. Anything predetermined is well naturally already determined, so destiny is the keeper of all knowledge then correct? Destiny knows what you are going to do before you do it and if you try to switch up and change on it, Destiny knew you would do that as well be cause it is by definition predetermined.

I honestly don't believe that some cosmos relationship exists that limits my free will but I can find no argument against it either because it is a completely arbitrary concept. There are by no means anyone can prove destiny to be an existent or a nonexistent force. Some would argue ah well God will tell me the answer and then other will reply with what God, he doesn't exist.

Fortunately, you don't have to believe in something to debate for it. To answer your question rather or not you believe in free will as I do or not depends directly on your analysis of destiny and it's existence.

Take a look at a window. Should I decide to thrust a rock with enough force to form a crack but not shatter, I have limited it's existence. Soon the crack will extend in a specific manner, maybe to the left, maybe to the right, etc. etc. Whatever way that the mirror should by nature of Science crack is it's destiny correct? Well what happens if I cast another rock upon it and it should alter the course of the extension, have I altered destiny because I and the mirror are separate beings and we have individual destinies or have I done nothing because we are the same and we share the same destiny. Think on that.
Posted by mrge 4 years ago
mrge
The both of you provide interesting premises but unfortunately haven't grasped the real issue on this topic. Con's main point of destiny seems to be that the future cannot be predicted and therefore cannot be left to choice. In a very basic form. Pro's argument is that since the future is cause by ones action (an act of will) than there must be some sort of control for the future since of course the future is based on our actions.

Let me put in my two cents here. Although both sides are bright and arguments are strong, the real issue isn't that the future isn't predictable and that we have a choice or rather our actions (again an act of will) can change the course of the future, but rather whether we have free will at all?

Think about this for a second, this comes in two parts. First. Is it possible with infinite amount of resources can we calculate all the variables in reality and project a prediction of the future? The answer is yes. If we know all the variables and can calculate how they all interact correctly, we can effetivel predict the future. Now let the simmer inside your head for awhile.

Secondly, lets take a look of free will. Free will is basically you do something by choice is it not? But think about this.. What if we don't actually have free will but have the illusion of free will? What if the cosmic universe knows what we will do ahead of time because it knows us so well? anything you do will be predicted? So now the real kicker out of this is, if we actually only have the illusion of free will, and not actually posses free will, than destiny will be proved correct and it cannot be changed or altered. And in fact, we have no choice at all. Think about it, so the main issue isn't whther destiny is a matter of choice, its whether we have a choice at all? whether free will is real? As human beings, we take in and learn from ou enviroment and we mimic and think based on that. So do we really have free will?
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