Debate Rounds (3)
You say the money is the root of many problems. Before i give you my opinion on why it isn't a bad thing, I'll tell you why i think it is a good thing.
First, money allows us to buy things. That may sound simple, but it's true. I buy food with money. I buy clothes with money, I pay bills with money. I pay for other services with money. Why? Because everyone accepts money. Try to imagine a world without money. How would I buy my food? Unless I had a really generous farmer next door who would give me free food all the time, I would have no food, unless I could grow it for myself.
Think of society today. We get things from everywhere. We buy food from the supermarket. We buy clothes from clothes stores. We buy appliances from appliance stores. We buy medicine from pharmacies. Without money, how would we get everything we need? Unless I could make my own food, clothes, appliances, home, medicine, education, and everything else I need, I would need money. Why? Because money is how we trade. If we don't have money, we have basically no trade. If we have no trade, everyone needs to be able to produce everything they would need to survive. Which isn't really possible.
So, about your arguments. I disagree with all of them. If we take money out of the equation, crime will still exist. It would probably get worse. If I have a TV someone wants, and they have no money to pay for it, they can still steal it. money is not the only thing of value in the world today. Taking it away just gives people one less way to get what they need.
You also assume everyone would be able to get a job. Jobs are selling services or products. Who's going to be buying if there is no MONEY? There'd be less jobs. What would workers get paid with? You can't expect people to work with no pay. How would it provide more shelter? More shelter means more homes to be built. People usually won't build homes unless they are PAID.
You assume money is the root of our problems. However, I don't see any evidence as to why money is not needed. Please tell me WHY we don't need money. You say people would work better cooperatively than competitively. With no competitive drive, no one needs to succeed. With no one needing to succeed, there is no success. No success, and we're stuck
Please convince me next round.
Great thanks for joiing the debate :)
I guess in my first post i didnt really explain what, how or why i think it would be better i just focused on the problems,
I mean its not money itself its how people use it,
Its how in different countrys where one person with money will survive and get health survices / medicines and the other person without money has to fend for themselves and possably die.
Some people use it as a free ride like the UK's job seekers , there are a fair few that use the system to get money and with little work , where as people who work hard all year round can get about the same amount of money. ( im not saying everyone on job seekers)
yeah we only get things because we pay for them but imagine if money didnt exist and it was more bassed on trust and sharring, people work in the knowledge that everyone is working just like them and the resources would still be available,
it would be some garden of eden style thing.
Anotherthing that comes into mind is secrets , high up people in the business industry hold back new designs on phones , televisions , cars , computers to slowly release them and make a higher profit margin throughout the time they are selling and also without forgeting that they make a product that will break after a certain amount of time, why? again to maxamise profits. Not only is that wastefull and ineffecient its just holding back the progressive nature of mankind, theres a saying "a man cannot think beyond his time" which is true and in this case we are probably living in 2005 in terms of the possable technologies that could exist in this day and age. so if everyone had the best possable technologies around them we would be living in the "now" and we could progress even faster like a "snowball effect", all the big bussiness leaders are getting possable snow and throwing it further down the hill out the way and charge everyone for it.
For the crime im talking about things like fraud and stealing , if you took money out of the equation and made all things and resources ready available to anyone there would be no temptation to steal, also it would take away powers from mafias and people that would domonate and take peoples hard earnt money through some muscle.
In terms of the jobs yes the majority of the business sector would be useless and people would be out of work but in return there would be a larger work force for say building and more teams for science experaments etc etc, it would also encourage people to find a job as a passion rather than having money as a major factor of the decision making, my imagination of the world in terms of jobs would be that eveyone who has a job they like stays in it, the people that dont like there job or do not have a job go into a mass workforce that gets called upon for help from the (science/ building / manufacuring/ food / ) sectors for a help if there is a big project it would benefit both parties in that the person without the job would get to try out a new sector and the project would be completed allot faster.
you say about the drive and it comes from competitivity i agree with that but it also depends on your look at it on how big of a deal that really is. mankinds one purpose is to create a better enviroment for itself in terms of food , clothes , technologies , shelter and so on. so really we dont have any end target otherthan to make the best possable standards possable and i belive the standards we have got to now are more than great for the caveman we once was. we could easily live in these standars forever without a fuss, so thats what i mean about starvation and stuff in africa and around the world dosent actually need to exist we have the resources and man power to provide every and anyone in a bad situation like that.
The only reason we could need to keep this competitive edge would be to increase our technologies so much that if some alliens attacked we would be able to fend them off, but i dont see that happening at anytime. haha
but at the same time im not saying we should slow down i belive from the points above we would actually move and progress faster.
i know i just wrote a bible haha but i have been thinking about this for a long time.
You seem to have a lot of trust and confidence in the goodness of people. Unfortunately, things don't work out the way you would hope. You say that, without money, humans would all work and share. This most likely would not happen. As long as "the resources would be available to everyone", everyone could take what they needed, right? Then, I wouldn't need to work. I still would, because I value hard work and earning your money, but I wouldn't need to work. Lots of other people wouldn't work. Why? Because they can have everything they need without earning it. Who would work when no one needs to work? No one, And where would the resources be if no one worked? They wouldn't exist, because no one is working. Why? Because no one needs to work. It just goes round and round, and in the end, all we end up with is a bunch of people not working because they can get everything they need without earning it.
When you talk about crime rates going down, I bring you back to previous argument. Let's say everyone wants a TV. But not everyone is working to make TV's, because they can get one without earning one. No one will work to make TV's. So, we have less TV's. And when we have less TV's, that means that some people have them and some people don't. Money is not the root of crime; envy is. There will be crime as long as someone wants something they don't have, and they see someone else who has it.
You say, for jobs, that people could follow their passions. My passion is playing video games. If I spend all my time playing video games, I'm not making anything. I'm not contributing anything. All I'm doing is just leeching off of the hardworking people. If everyone did what they loved, very few people would actually be contributing to our resource pool.
As I've said before, people wouldn't be working if they got rewarded either way. Who would grow food for starving countries in Africa? No one, unless there are a whole lot of people who want to do hard work on farms for the same reward as doing nothing.
In the end, taking away money and giving everyone their fair share of the resource pool wouldn't work. No one would work if they got all they needed without working. It's as simple as that.
Well obviously the emediate response would be all out lazzynes but the focus would more be on maintaing the luxury lifestyle and after a while people will have to start working again to maintain that lifestyle , its not like suddenly they will loose the resources like cars, phones and tv's , also the envy wouldnt exist if the products where made to the highest standards possable and each person had them, also on the point it would take a good few generations to pass down the good will and over the years people would loose the bad habbits of envy/ jelousy.
it would have to be a system where if you work you get the rewards and with the passion thing, video game playing is an actuall job so you would be able to do that and some kind of regulating body would be put in place to decide what is and what is not a suitable job, the system would be like if you work you get the benefits of everything but if you dont you dont simple as and that deal seems so atractive no one would really decline it if they were working/ doing there passion for a living.
im not thinking of a world without work but a world where work dosent have a value , its starnge how people could say one job is more important than another when really nothing is of importance in terms of the universe we are just existing to exist, so why slave ourselves over a ficticious thing? and why complicate the way we interact with barriers of worth and power that dosent exist in the first place?, some people live like (kings/ the devine) and some people starve when reality both are worth the same when there is no end goal.
obviously what im saying goes against everything we belive in because money is the thing that gives ourself worth in the world but it blinds us from peace, it creates a reasons to do things that shouldnt be reasoned in the first place. its a void that allows suffering to exist when it could not.
its been cool having the debate though ! i just wanted to see what people would think if i propossed the idea :)
How is video gaming a job? It's only a job if someone is willing to pay for it. And who could play for it if there was no money? No one would pay for me because they have the same games I have. Inequality in various areas creates specialization, which leads to a healthy economy. If I have exactly the same things as everyone else, what can I do that everyone else can't? You need to be special to be recognized and for you to be successful. And when everyone is special, no one is.
I don't understand your next argument. If we are nothing, why do you care if money gets abolished? Why does ANYONE care? Because we're proud. We're more than just a stitch in the fabric of time and space. We believe that we are different. And we don't care how insignificant we might seem, because we're going to live. We're going to achieve our dreams. We're going to make success, innovation, invention, happiness happen. Humans don't survive on Earth. We live. We dream. We do whatever we can to achieve those dreams, and so in the end, work does have a value. We are important in the universe. Why? Because we're moving our human civilization forward. We may seem insignificant, but we're the most innovative people to ever live. What I'm trying to say is that we work to achieve our dreams, and that everyone has goals they want to reach. Everyone's different, and we are all significant. Sorry for the speech.
So, in the end, I think money is one of the things that has let us come so far and be so successful. We may have wars, but are those over money? Not usually. They're over envy and sometimes religion. We may seem like a mess, but humanity is the most innovative, inventive life to ever come to Earth. Money is one of the things that makes us special. Money is one of the things that make us competitive, so we compete for success and improve ourselves doing so. Money fuels our world, which is soaring forward into the future.
Thanks for debating with me. I really had a good time. Best of luck in all of your other debating...uh...adventures.
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