The Instigator
TheWORDisLIFE
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Scratch
Con (against)
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Did Jesus Christ have an earthly father?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/20/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,796 times Debate No: 76728
Debate Rounds (5)
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TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

I challenge Scratch to debate whether or not Jesus had an earthly father. I will prove Christ had an earthly father using Scripture alone. I have done this debate before, therefore, I will use the evidence I posted in that debate from R2, in this debate, for my opening argument.

http://www.debate.org......

Rules of debate:

1. Challenger MUST be a Christian or Catholic.

2. Challenger MUST use the Bible ONLY as evidence for his/her claims.

3. Challenger CANNOT change the topic of the talking point.

4. Challenger CANNOT change rules of debate.

*If any of the above rules are disobeyed, if any rules at all are violated, it will result in CON automatically losing this debate.

Rules for Arguments:

R1 - Acceptance and agreement only, of the five statues listed above.

R2 - Arguments/Refutes

R3 - Arguments/Refutes

R4 - Arguments/Refutes

R5 - Concluding statements

If you have any questions pertaining to the topic of the debate, please ask them in the comment section before accepting this debate.

*NOTE: I will not change the rules of the debate nor will I make any alterations to the discussion of this debate.
Scratch

Con

I accept this debate. I will prove Christ did NOT have and earthly father. Obviously this is impossible to prove scientifically; therefore I will use the Bible. I will use the KJV WITHOUT the Apocrypha.

Turn-about is fair play. Therefore if you disobey or violate any of your above rules, it will result in PRO automatically losing this debate.

Good luck, and happy debating.
Debate Round No. 1
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

Apparently the link I posted in R1 for this same debate, is not the correct link, so here it is.

http://www.debate.org...

I’m using the KIV 1611 with Apocrypha. Thank you CON for accepting. Good luck



I’d first like to point out that Jesus Christ had a genealogy.

Matthew 1:1-16

[1] The book of the generation of Iesus Christ, the sonne of David, the sonne of Abraham.

Generation and genealogy have the same meanings. It is a line of descendants traced from one ancestor to another. The key word in “generation” is “gene”, which means: a unit of heredity that is transferred from a parent to offspring and is held to determine some characteristic of the offspring.

[2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Iacob; and Iacob begat Iudas and his brethren;

[3] And Iudas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

[4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naassonne; and Naassonne begat Salmon;

[5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Iesse;

[6] And Iesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

[7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

[8] And Asa begat Iosaphat; and Iosaphat begat Ioram; and Ioram begat Ozias;

[9] And Ozias begat Ioatham; and Ioatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;

[10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Iosias;

[11] And Iosias begat Iechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

[12] And after they were brought to Babylon, Iechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

[13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;

[14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

[15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Iacob;

[16] And Iacob begat Ioseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Iesus, who is called Christ.

If Christ came only through Mary without Joseph, why would it mention Joseph in this verse? If Christ popped up in Mary, what would be the significance of mentioning Joseph right here that says he was the husband of Mary? Why would that even be mentioned? If we are reading about the genealogy of Jesus Christ, why would Joseph be mentioned?

Christians/Catholics don’t understand the Bible. They read the Scriptures just to read them, but they don’t grasp what the Bible is actually saying.

Hebrews 2:16-17

[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels” – Does an angel have an earthly father? No….does an angel need a man and a woman to have sex to conceive? No….angels are not created like that. “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels” – meaning Christ was not immaculately born. “but he took on him the seed of Abraham” – He, Christ, took on him the sperm of Abraham. Christ came out of the lineage, the generations of Abraham; sperm.

[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like vnto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

made like unto his brethren” – so He was made like unto His brethren. “that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest” – He couldn’t be a merciful and faithful high priest if He wasn’t made like you and me. If He was celestial, he wouldn’t understand temptation, He wouldn’t understand trials, He wouldn’t understand love and hate. He understood all of that though…..why? Because He, Christ, was made like you and I.

Precept for Hebrews 2:17

Deuteronomy 18:18

[18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like vnto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak vnto them all that I shall command him.

This is God speaking to Moses about the coming of Christ’s birth. The LORD said that HE was going to raise a Prophet from among the brothers of Moses, but Christ was going to be made like Moses. How was Moses born? Mother and father. Moses WAS NOT immaculately born. “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (like unto Moses; like Moses).”


1 Corinthians 15:39-40

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, an] another of birds.

[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There are also celestial bodies” – celestial means angelic. “bodies terrestrial” – terrestrial means what? Earthly; terrain. “but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.” – so you can’t mix those two together. So, I know some Catholics/Christians say that an angel had sex with Mary. If an angel had sex with Mary, she’d be blown up. The Most High God is showing us that each of these flesh have their own order. The Most High God is not the author of confusion – 1 Cor 14:33.

Romans 1:3

[3] Concerning his Sonne Iesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of Dauid according to the flesh;

Galatians 4:4

[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Sonne, made of a woman, made under the law,

when the fulness of the time was come” – The fullness of time is that 9 or 10 months of pregnancy.

Precept to “when the fulness of the time was come”

Wisdom of Solomon 7:2

[2] And in my mothers wombe was fashioned to be flesh in the time of tenne moneths being compacted in blood, of the seed of man, and the pleasure that came with sleepe.

made of a woman, made under the law,” – The law this is referring to is Leviticus 15, the entire chapter. So Christ was, “made of a woman, made under the law,”.


John 7:42

[42] Hath not the Scripture saide, that Christ commeth of the seede of Dauid, and out of the towne of Bethlehem, where Dauid was?

Acts 13:23

[23] Of this mans seed hath God, according to his promise, raised vnto Israel a Sauiour, Iesus:

according to his promise” – The precepts to this is Deuteronomy 18:18, Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:21.

Deuteronomy 18:18

[18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like vnto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak vnto them all that I shall command him.

Luke 1:35

[35] And the Angel answered and said vnto her, The holy Ghost shall come vpon thee, and the power of the Highest shall ouershadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall bee borne of thee, shall bee called the sonne of God.

Matthew 1:21

[21] And she shall bring forth a sonne, and thou shalt call his Name Iesus: for hee shall saue his people from their sinnes.

2 Timothy 2:8

[8] Remember that Iesus Christ of the seede of Dauid, was raised from the dead, according to my Gospel:

Acts 2:30

[30] Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworne with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loines, according to the flesh, hee would raise vp Christ, to sit on his throne:

that of the fruit of his loines, according to the flesh,” – So the fruit of his loins is not spiritual. It’s according to his flesh. Look at a man’s flesh, what is a man’s loins? It’s his penis, his rod, his sperm comes from his loins. This verse also goes to Romans 1:3.

Loins: the region of the sexual organs, especially when regarded as the source of erotic or procreative power.

John 6:42

[42] And they said, Is not this Iesus the sonne of Ioseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that hee sayth, I came downe from heauen?

John 1:45

[45] Philip findeth Nathaneel, and saith vnto him, We haue found him of whom Moses in the Law, and the Prophets did write, Iesus of Nazareth the sonne of Ioseph.

of whom Moses in the Law” – Meaning Deuteronomy 18:18; Genesis 49:10

Matthew 13:55

[55] Is not this the Carpenters sonne? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, Iames, and Ioses, and Simon, and Iudas?

Matthew 1:25

[25] And knewe her not, till shee had brought forth her first borne sonne, and he called his name Iesus.


Joseph didn’t sleep with Mary till Jesus was born. He had to wait 40 days, that’s what the LAW says. Leviticus 12:2-4 is the LAW regarding pregnancy and not being able to have sex during a woman’s pregnancy. Also, Jesus was the FIRST born son, meaning Jesus had brothers.

Luke 2:48

[48] And when they sawe him, they were amazed: and his mother said vnto him, Sonne, why hast thou thus dealt with vs? Behold, thy father and I haue sought thee sorrowing.

So Mary is calling Joseph the FATHER of Jesus Christ, not the STEP FATHER or ADOPTIVE FATHER of Jesus Christ.

1 John 4:3

[43] And euery Spirit that confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist, whereof you haue heard, that it should come, and euen now already is it in the world.

And euery Spirit that confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God” – so if you don’t confess that Jesus came from the seed of man, if you don’t confess that Joseph is His earthly father, you are not of God. “whereof you haue heard, that it should come, and euen now already is it in the world.” – The spirit of Antichrist is already on this earth, the Catholic/Christian churches who teach that Jesus was immaculately born, they have a spirit of Antichrist.

Scratch

Con

I will present my rebuttals on this round; For the sake of time and space I will leave the Biblical proof of the virgin birth for round 3.

“I’d first like to point out that Jesus Christ had a genealogy.”---TheWORDisLIFE

Excellent observation. As a matter of fact, I memorized Matthew 1 through chapter 7 about six years ago.

“Generation and genealogy have the same meanings.”----TWiL

Well not exactly, but I understand your point.

“If Christ came only through Mary without Joseph, why would it mention Joseph in this verse? ----TWiL

Your four questions are quite repetitive so I need but answer one. I will prove Joseph is not Jesus’s father later; but for now, Joseph’s genealogy (as the adopted father) is necessary to prove Jesus’s eligibility to the throne, being David’s decedent. Notice through the entire genealogy: so-in-so begat so-in-so who begat so-in-so. But when we come to Jesus it says: “And Iacob begat Ioseph the husband of Mary, of whom(feminine) was born Iesus, who is called Christ.” If Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, why wouldn’t it say: And Joseph, the husband of Mary, begat Jesus??

“They [Christians/Catholics] read the Scriptures just to read them, but they don’t grasp what the Bible is actually saying.” ----TWiL

This statement is true in many cases, but in this genealogy nothing suggests Joseph is Jesus’s biological father.

“Does an angel have an earthly father? No….does an angel need a man and a woman to have sex to conceive? No….angels are not created like that. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels” – meaning Christ was not immaculately born. “but he took on him the seed of Abraham” – He, Christ, took on him the sperm of Abraham. Christ came out of the lineage, the generations of Abraham; sperm.”---TWiL

Angles are celestial; Jesus came as a human. According to the Bible, He is 100% human and 100% God. He took on the seed of Abraham, through Mary.

““made like unto his brethren” – so He was made like unto His brethren. “that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest” – He couldn’t be a merciful and faithful high priest if He wasn’t made like you and me. If He was celestial, he wouldn’t understand temptation, He wouldn’t understand trials, He wouldn’t understand love and hate. He understood all of that though…..why? Because He, Christ, was made like you and I.”----TWiL

True. He was made exactly like you and I; but not conceived as us. The Bible explains itself when taken as a whole. He was 100% celestial and 100% terrestrial. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God, as he and His Father claimed?

This is God speaking to Moses about the coming of Christ’s birth. The LORD said that HE was going to raise a Prophet from among the brothers of Moses, but Christ was going to be made like Moses. How was Moses born? Mother and father. Moses WAS NOT immaculately born. “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (like unto Moses; like Moses).”

“This is God speaking to Moses about the coming of Christ’s birth.”

Bad assumption.


“The LORD said that HE was going to raise a Prophet from among the brothers of Moses,”

Good observation.


“but Christ was going to be made like Moses.”

Good observation.


“How was Moses born? Mother and father.”

Good observation.


Moses WAS NOT immaculately born.

Good observation. So what?? Read this verse in context. It is not talking about his conception.

“Iknow some Catholics/Christians say that an angel had sex with Mary.”

Read Luke 1:35 again to see what the Bible says.

“when the fulness of the time was come” – The fullness of time is that 9 or 10 months of pregnancy.”

1. It does not mean that. Read the context of Gal. 4:4

2. Even if it did, Jesus fulfilled the approx. 9 months.

“made of a woman, made under the law,” – The law this is referring to is Leviticus 15, the entire chapter. So Christ was, “made of a woman, made under the law,”

Exactly. Made of a woman. This law is actually referring to the whole law, not just Lev. 15.

“ Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworne with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loines, according to the flesh, hee would raise vp Christ, to sit on his throne: “that of the fruit of his loines, according to the flesh,” – So the fruit of his loins is not spiritual. It’s according to his flesh. Look at a man’s flesh, what is a man’s loins? It’s his penis, his rod, his sperm comes from his loins.”

Yes, it is according to the flesh. But read vs. 29. The fruit of David’s loins, not Joseph’s:

“Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins [David’s], according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;”

“ Joseph didn’t sleep with Mary till Jesus was born. He had to wait 40 days, that’s what the LAW says. Leviticus 12:2-4 is the LAW regarding pregnancy and not being able to have sex during a woman’s pregnancy.”

Read the context. Joseph had yet to sleep with Mary:

Mat 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: FOR THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, A VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: AND KNEW HER NOT TILL SHE HAD BROUGHT FORTH HER FIRSTBORN SON: and he called his name JESUS.

“And euery Spirit that confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God” – so if you don’t confess that Jesus came from the seed of man,

I believe Jesus came in the flesh and is of the seed of a man (through Mary.) BTW, read Gen. 3:15: “Between thy seed and HER seed”.

if you don’t confess that Joseph is His earthly father, you are not of God.”

Uh, it never says that. All it says is: “And euery Spirit that confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God:” It never mentions Joseph.

“the Catholic/Christian churches who teach that Jesus was immaculately born, they have a spirit of Antichrist.”

Nope. The virgin birth confesses Jesus came from the seed of a man. The Bible is quite clear on the doctrine of the virgin birth which I will present in the next round.

Debate Round No. 2
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

“Your four questions are quite repetitive so I need but answer one. I will prove Joseph is not Jesus’s father later; but for now, Joseph’s genealogy (as the adopted father) is necessary to prove Jesus’s eligibility to the throne, being David’s decedent.”


Can you show Joseph as the “adopted father” of Jesus using Scripture?


“Notice through the entire genealogy: so-in-so begat so-in-so who begat so-in-so. But when we come to Jesus it says: “And Iacob begat Ioseph the husband of Mary, of whom(feminine) was born Iesus, who is called Christ.” If Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, why wouldn’t it say: And Joseph, the husband of Mary, begat Jesus??


Seems CON couldn’t answer the question, so in turn, asked me a question to try to refute my points. If Joseph wasn’t the father of Jesus, why would Joseph be mentioned in the genealogy of Christ? A genealogy is a line of descendants, not adoptive fathers/mothers or step fathers/mothers. So again, what would be the significance of mentioning Joseph in the genealogy of Christ?


“Angles are celestial; Jesus came as a human. According to the Bible, He is 100% human and 100% God. He took on the seed of Abraham, through Mary.”


Where is your evidence for Christ taking on the seed of Abraham through Mary?


“True. He was made exactly like you and I; but not conceived as us. The Bible explains itself when taken as a whole. He was 100% celestial and 100% terrestrial. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God, as he and His Father claimed?”


1.) You are contradicting yourself. Up above you said “According to the Bible, He is 100% human and 100% God.” Now He is 100% angel and 100% earthly? Show that in the Scriptures – that He is 100% angel and 100% human.


2.) where is your evidence for the claims you are making?


Jesus is the Son of God, He is not God as you just said and as Scripture says, “the Son of God” not that He is God.


Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himselfe hath suffered, being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Angels cannot be tempted, so this verse completely destroys your private interpretation that Christ is 100% angelic & 100 % human.


“Bad assumption.”


No Scripture to refute my points? If it’s a “bad assumption”, (which it’s not because if you read the verse 17, it tells you that the LORD said unto Moses) then refute it with the Scriptures.


“Good observation. So what?? Read this verse in context. It is not talking about his conception.”


So what??? Maybe you don’t understand the Scriptures. “Like unto thee” means like Moses was conceived.


Wisdom of Solomon 7:5-6


[5] For there is no king that had any other beginning of birth.


So Solomon is saying that there is no king that had any other special way of being conceived.


[6]For all men haue one entrance vnto life, and the like going out.


Did you notice where it says, “ALL men have one entrance unto life”? Meaning that every man born, was conceived from the sperm of man and the eggs of woman. The Scriptures don’t say anything about Christ being immaculately born. “All men” includes Christ.


“Read Luke 1:35 again to see what the Bible says.”


Luke 1:35


And the Angel answered and said vnto her, The holy Ghost shall come vpon thee, and the power of the Highest shall ouershadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall bee borne of thee, shall bee called the sonne of God.


So now, “The holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” – What is the Holy Ghost talking about? The Law…The Word is going to be fulfilled in her.


Acts 7:51-53


[51] Ye stifnecked and vncircumcised in heart, and eares, ye doe alwayes resist the holy Ghost? as your fathers did, so doe ye.


[52] Which of the Prophets haue not your fathers persecuted? And they haue slaine them which shewed before of the comming of the Iust one, of whom ye haue bene now the betrayers and murderers:


[53] Who haue receiued the Lawe by the disposition of Angels, and haue not kept it.


“Who have received the Law” – that’s the Holy Ghost they were resisting.


Luke 1:35 And the Angel answered and said vnto her, The holy Ghost shall come vpon thee, and the power of the Highest shall ouershadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall bee borne of thee, shall bee called the sonne of God.


It says, “shall be”, future tense. The HG that shall come upon her, the power of The Highest that overshadowed her is instruction according to the Law to direct Mary on what to do, and if you read on it’s going to say that.


Luke 1:38-39


[38] And Marie said, Behold the handmaide of the Lord, be it vnto me according to thy word: and the Angel departed from her.


[39] And Marie arose in those dayes, and went into the hill countrey with haste, into a citie of Iuda,


Into a city of Juda. Who lived in the city of Juda? Joseph lived in the city of Juda. So now, you have to ask yourself, self, why did Mary leave from Galilee and go into the city of Juda? The angel already told her, “the Holy Ghost shall come upon you and overshadow you, meaning guide you, direct you.



Luke 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three moneths, and returned to her owne house.


So May stayed in the same area where Joseph lived for about three months...you must be able to connect the dots.


“1. It does not mean that. Read the context of Gal. 4:4”


Galatians 4:4 But when the fulnes of the time was come, God sent foorth his Sonne made of a woman, made vnder the Law,


“Made of a woman, made under the LAW” – so Christ was made under the LAW. What does the LAW say about child birth? You have to go back to the OT to get the understanding. Leviticus 12, the entire chapter, tells you the LAW for women after child birth. Leviticus 15:16 explains the LAW for men after their seed or sperm of copulation or during sex, comes out from them. All this, plays a part in Galatians 4:4. Now the “fullness of time” is the 9 or 10 months according to Wisdom of Solomon 7:2.


“2. Even if it did, Jesus fulfilled the approx. 9 months.”


So if Jesus fulfilled the approximate 9 or 10 months, then He came from the seed of man or Joseph because He was made under the LAW, which includes a man’s seed of copulation.


“Exactly. Made of a woman. This law is actually referring to the whole law, not just Lev. 15.”


So you agree then that Christ was made of man and woman because you just said, “This law is actually referring to the whole law” and the whole law includes the sperm of man.


“Yes, it is according to the flesh. But read vs. 29. The fruit of David’s loins, not Joseph’s:”


Does not Joseph come from David’s lineage?


Matthew 1:20 But while hee thought on these things, behold, the Angel of the Lord appeared vnto him in a dreame, saying, Ioseph thou sonne of Dauid, feare not to take vnto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceiued in her, is of the holy Ghost.


Joseph the son of David. Joseph comes from the seed of David that is why David is mentioned in the genealogy of Christ. Christ is from the seed of David because Scripture says a child’s tribe is determined by the pedigree of the father.


Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the Congregation together on the first day of the second moneth, and they declared their pedegrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty yeres old and vpward by their polle.


So because Joseph is the son of David, Christ is also the son of David since the pedigree is declared by the father.


“Mat 1:18-25 – CON”


So on what wisdom/knowledge was the birth of Jesus Christ? Matthew 1:18 says, “Now the birth of Iesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Ioseph (before they came together) shee was found with childe of the holy Ghost.” So what’s that wisdom the Christ’s birth was on? Also, can you show with Scripture, what the customs and traditions are that the Israelites followed for marriage?


“I believe Jesus came in the flesh and is of the seed of a man (through Mary.) BTW, read Gen. 3:15: “Between thy seed and HER seed”.”


So what you’re saying is that Mary had both a penis and vagina? That’s non-sense. Everybody has a father and mother, which is why Christ has two genealogies, one from Joseph (Matthew 1:1-16) and the other from Mary (Luke 3:23-38). No woman can conceive a child on her own, she needs the seed or sperm of a man to fertilize her eggs to conceive a child, just like no man can create a child without the eggs of a woman.


Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmitie betweene thee and the woman, and betweene thy seed and her seed: it shal bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Uhh, this has nothing to do with the topic of this debate. If read precept upon precept – Isaiah 28:10, this is going back to Jacob and Esau, which has nothing to do with this topic.


Uh, it never says that. All it says is: “And euery Spirit that confesseth not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God:” It never mentions Joseph.


“And every Spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” – you have a spirit, you are not confessing that Christ came from Joseph’s seed, therefore you are not of God. I already gave Scripture and definitions showing what see and loins according to the flesh are, but you’re either ignoring those Scriptures or you can’t refute them.


Nope. The virgin birth confesses Jesus came from the seed of a man. The Bible is quite clear on the doctrine of the virgin birth which I will present in the next round.


Exactly, He comes from the seed of man, which only a man holds. Again, a woman does not have seed or sperm, a woman has eggs. Have you noticed that the Scripture says, "And if any mans seede of copulation” – it does not say of any woman’s seed of copulation because again, a woman does not have seed, she has eggs.



Audience, please note: CON didn’t give me much evidence to refute. He mainly posted his own private interpretations without Scripture to back it up. I provided plenty of Scripture and he only attempted to refute some but not all.

Scratch

Con


“Audience, please note: CON didn’t give me much evidence to refute. He mainly posted his own private interpretations without Scripture to back it up. I provided plenty of Scripture and he only attempted to refute some but not all.”---PRO


We’ll leave this to the audience for a decision, as I am satisfied I answered your concerns completely. I will demonstrate the Biblical proof for the virgin birth, then refute your newest claims if space remains.



1. The Bible says it was a virgin birth:


As a Bible believer, I believe in a supernatural Christianity which presents a supernatural Christ Who had a supernatural Birth, Who lived a supernatural Life, Who died a supernatural Death, Who rose in a supernatural Resurrection, and Who is coming again in a supernatural Manner. Rejection, then, of the Virgin Birth is an attack on the supernaturalness of Christ. Of Christ's wondrous birth, human incredulity questions, "How shall this be?" Divine inspiration answers, "With God all things are possible.”


All prophecies related to the coming of a messiah meet their fulfillment in Jesus Christ and no other. Luke 24:27 “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Jesus) And now on to the biblical proof of the virgin birth:


The Lord Jesus Christ claimed by His exposition of the Old Testament law and prophets, in Luke 24, that He was indeed the One of whom the prophets has spoken the virgin birth is foretold by the prophets and fully verified in the NT. Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


“And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”Luke 1:26-35


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: FOR THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Mat 1:18-25


According to these verses, a virgin conceived and a holy thing was formed In her womb. Hebrews 10:5 says: Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: As a side note to Catholics: Mary was the human vessel in whose womb He formed the body in which to dwell. God was Mary’s creator. Mary did not give birth to God; she gave birth to the body of flesh in which God was manifest. God existed before Mary.


Our Lord Jesus Christ was quite aware from His earliest days that Joseph was not his father, for at the age of twelve He rebuked His mother for making that assertion. When after three days Joseph and Mary found the boy Jesus in the temple, Mary said to Him, "Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." --Luke 2:48. The answer of Christ was a clear repudiation that Joseph was His father. "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" --Luke 2:49. He was not the son of Joseph; He was the Son of God.


This clarifies your concern with Heb 2:16-17. God did not send an angel or even a host of angles to take care of man’s sin problem. God Himself came in the person Jesus Christ to save sinners. He took the name Immanuel, that is, God with us.


The pre-existence of JC before he became incarnate is undeniably established in the Bible: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In Gen 1:1, In the beginning God. And in John 1:2-3 The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. We see the Word existing from the beginning, and the Word made all things.


“Perhaps the most amazing aspect of the incarnation is that a God who is absolute holiness could reside in a body of human flesh. Is it not true that "they that are in the flesh cannot please God?" (Romans 8:8). Our human bodies have been formed through many generations of genetic inheritance from Adam himself, and "in Adam all die" (I Corinthians 15:22). The paradox is partially resolved, of course, when it is realized that Jesus Christ came in a body which was not of sinful flesh. His body was truly "in the flesh," but only "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). But even this doesn't resolve the dilemma completely, for how could His body be of flesh (carbon, hydrogen, amino acids, proteins, etc.), received by the normal process of reproduction of the flesh of his parents, without also receiving their genetic inheritance, which is exactly what makes it sinful flesh? "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). "Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble … Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one" (Job 14:4).Not only is there the problem of inherent sin, but also of inherent physical defects. Over many generations, the human population has experienced great numbers of genetic mutations, and these defective physical factors have been incorporated into the common genetic pool, affecting in some degree every infant ever born. Yet the Lamb of God, to be an acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world, must be "without blemish and without spot" (I Peter 1:19). The very purpose of the incarnation was that God could become the Saviour of men as well as their Creator, but this required that in His humanity He must be "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" (Hebrews 7:26), and this would have been absolutely impossible by the normal reproductive process.”


Gal 4:4 States: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. The Bible says Jesus was made of a woman, not a man and a woman; But a woman. Note how careful Paul is in his epistles; He proclaims Jesus to be the seed of Abraham and David, he never ascribes the sonship of Jesus to any earthly father, but only to God; yet he has no hesitation ascribing His birth to a woman!



With the space remaining, I will present my rebuttals to Pro’s arguments:




“Can you show Joseph as the “adopted father” of Jesus using Scripture?”---PRO


Matthew 1:18-20-- "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with Child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Luke 2:5-- "To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with Child." Joseph was His mother’s husband; Under Jewish law "he that brings up and not he that begets is called the father or parent" and the adopted shares the legal standing of the foster male parent. (I didn’t take the time to document this law)



“Seems CON couldn’t answer the question, so in turn, asked me a question to try to refute my points. If Joseph wasn’t the father of Jesus, why would Joseph be mentioned in the genealogy of Christ?”---PRO


I answered your question: “Joseph’s genealogy (as the adopted father) is necessary to prove Jesus’s eligibility to the throne, being David’s decedent.” And, questions are a viable manner to refute points.



“Where is your evidence for Christ taking on the seed of Abraham through Mary?”---PRO


The Bible teaches the virgin birth, therefore Mary Jesus got it through Mary. The Bible says woman have seed: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed AND HER SEED; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



I will leave the rest for the next round…



Sources:


A Sure Foundation; Knox


Dr. Paisley


The Bible


Debate Round No. 3
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

Because of the character limit, I have posted all my evidence in Evernote.

http://www.evernote.com...

CON, if you have more evidence you'd like to present and it exceedes the character limit, you can do the same also.
Scratch

Con


Sorry man, i've been super busy lately. I will post my arguments and conclusion on round 5.


Debate Round No. 4
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

To conclude this debate, I’d first like to thank CON for the opportunity to debate this talking matter. Secondly, I’d like to leave some Scriptures for you, the audience, to ponder on, which prove Jesus Christ came from the seed of man, meaning He had an earthly father, Joseph.

I will define these three words so that you, the reader, can have a better understanding of what the verse say when they mention these words.

Loins: the region of the sexual organs, especially when regarded as the source of erotic or procreative power.

Seed: a man's semen.

Copulation: sexual intercourse.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Sonne Iesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of Dauid according to the flesh,

which was made of the seed of Dauid” – so just to let the readers know, it says “which was made of the seed of Dauid” not the seed of Mary, but the seed of David. Now does that mean that David came back from the dead to have sex with Mary? No, that would be a delusional mind set. Joseph is from the seed of David (Matthew 1:20) and Joseph and Mary, according to the Customs and Traditions in the Law regarding marriage, had sex before their wedding feast and that is how “the birth of Iesus Christ was on this wise: - Matthew 1:18”.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulnes of the time was come, God sent foorth his Sonne made of a woman, made vnder the Law,

So Christ was “made of a woman, made vnder the Law,” “made of a woman, made under the Law,” “made of a woman, made under the Law,” Christ was made under the LAW, we must go back to what the LAW says about child birth. What’s the the fulness of the time? That 9 or 10 months. What does the LAW say about child birth?....how does it begin, let's start there? Leviticus 15:16 that explains that seed first. Okay, now you get the woman, you have sex with her, the seed goes forth, right? Now what, she gets pregnant, what does the LAW say? Depending on the child, male or female, if it's a boy child, she cannot have sex for how many days? 40 days. If it's a girl child, she cannot have sex for how many days? 80 days. If it's a boy child, what has to happen on the 8th day? he must be circumcised, and then what has to be offered? There must be a sacrifice for her purification. All that plays a part in Galatians 4:4. A woman cannot get pregnant without the seed (sperm) of a man, that is why Gal 4:4 saysmade of a woman, made under the LAW” the key word is “LAW” because it is referring to the Old Testament Law. The Old Testament is what the Israelites were under when Christ walked the earth, thus Christ quoted everything He said from the Old Testament.

Acts 13:23 Of this mans seed hath God, according to his promise, raised vnto Israel a Sauiour, Iesus:

So this seed is Leviticus 15:16.

Precept to Acts 13:23

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stemme of Iesse, and a branch shal grow out of his rootes.

a rodalso known as “penis”; “out of the stemme of Iesse” or out of the generations of Jesse (Matthew 1:5-6); a branch shal grow out of his rootes.” Christ is the branch that grew from Jesse’s seed; Christ is a descendant of Jesse.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworne with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loines, according to the flesh, hee would raise vp Christ, to sit on his throne:

fruit of his loineslook at a man’s flesh, what is a man’s loins? We know that the loins are the sexual organs; v29 is speaking of David, therefore v30 is speaking of Davids seed or sperm from his loins or penis. The fruit is his descendant(s), and a couple of them Joseph and Christ (Matthew 1:1-16).

Luke 4:22 And all bare him witnesse, and wondered at the gracious wordes, which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Iosephs sonne?

So the Jews even knew that Christ was the son of Joseph, His earthly father.

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Iesus the sonne of Ioseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that hee sayth, I came downe from heauen?

So again, the Jews call Him the son of Joseph, and they knew both His father and mother.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathaneel, and saith vnto him, We haue found him of whom Moses in the Law, and the Prophets did write, Iesus of Nazareth the sonne of Ioseph.

of whom Moses in the Law” meaning Deuteronomy 18:18; Genesis 49:10

In order to understand Scripture, the Bible must be read precept upon precept (Isaiah 28:10) because this is how we get understanding. The Bible would be contradicting if “we” say that Christ didn’t have an earthly father based on a few Scriptures (that require us to go back to the Old Testament to get the full understanding of what those few Scriptures are saying), but the Bible says He rose out of the loins or penis, the seed or sperm of man. “We” cannot privately interpret Scripture, the Bible interprets itself when read precept upon precept. Reader keep in mind that Christ had two genealogies, one from His father and one from His mother. As I stated earlier, we all have a mother and father that is how we were brought into the world. Our parents had to have sex in order for our mother to conceive us; the seed of man goes out from him, into the woman and that is the process of a child being conceived. Scripture clearly refers to Jesus as “the son of Joseph” as I showed in my evidence. So it would be a contradiction to say that Christ didn’t have an earthly father, He had an “adoptive” father, which Scripture makes no mention of an “adoptive father”, but Scripture says Christ came from the seed or sperm of David, meaning Joseph because Joseph is from the seed of David. Scripture does not say Christ came from the seed of Mary because women do not hold seed, men hold the seed, which is why Scripture says Christ came from the seed of David.

Thank you again CON for the opportunity to discuss this topic. Good luck to you in your future debates :)

Scratch

Con

Thank you PRO for this debate. Sorry for the delay; I work 12+hr days so most my writing gets done about 6 am:)

I will post my arguments in 'evernote' then finish up with my conclusion.

https://www.evernote.com...

Conclution:

1. According to Isaiah, Matthew and Luke Jesus would be born of a virgin.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Therefore, the Bible teaches the virgin birth, and no Bible passage refutes it. Again, thanks to PRO.



Debate Round No. 5
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Scratch 2 years ago
Scratch
Here is the Evernote link in case the link in R5 didn't work:

https://www.evernote.com...
Posted by Scratch 2 years ago
Scratch
@TheWORDisLIFE

Sorry about the hasty conclusion. I pushed "submit" and ran out the door for work.
If I said something really stupid, just comment here and I'll explain if I can.
Posted by silverneccho 2 years ago
silverneccho
http://www.debate.org...

There you go, as you wished, a debate. Me vs You.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 2 years ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@silverneccho

lol, ok if that's what makes you feel good lol.

I don't argue with fools like you. You said you know the Bible, yet you couldn't answer my question regarding Scripture. Go take your ignorance else where.
Posted by silverneccho 2 years ago
silverneccho
@TheWORDisLIFE

This is my final statement to you. As a definite member of the Black Hebrew Israelites, you do need help. You blame white people and anyone who isn't BHI for your problems. You blame my God, my ideas, question my intelligence, question by religious background, insult me, insult others, declare an entire faith system as hypocrisy, demand the meaning love, are ignorant to how Jewish lineage is passed, use Bible verses blindly as weapons, accuse me and other of terrorist activity, and spew random BS at an alarming rate.

I am not an Edomite. You are not a Jew, unless your mother was or you properly converted. You are not a Christian, in any sense, as you openly attack other Christians and the Christian faith as a whole. You debate against the salvation of the world, against the divinity of Christ and you lie the entire time saying things like...

"No, I'm a Christian"
"No, I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Jew."

It sounds like you are neither. It sounds like you are an enemy of the Word of God, content to warp and bend its meanings. You are an enemy to the Christian faith.

"Christianity is a bunch of hypocrisy" so says TheWORDisLIFE

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 2 years ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@silverneccho

It is taking you quite a while to google what love is according to Scripture lol.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 2 years ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@silverneccho

A pedigree is merely a line of ancestral line.

On to how Jewish blood is passed, since the sins of Eve passed on to her children by her blood.

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."

source: http://www.jewfaq.org......

You have passed into the realm of foolery.

Typical Christian, giving private interpretations but no Scripture. Continue denying Scripture, that's what you people do best.
Posted by silverneccho 2 years ago
silverneccho
A pedigree is merely a line of ancestral line.

On to how Jewish blood is passed, since the sins of Eve passed on to her children by her blood.

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."

source: http://www.jewfaq.org...

You have passed into the realm of foolery.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 2 years ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@silverneccho

Ok, you know our Book, very well, let's see if that's true.

What is love?
Posted by silverneccho 2 years ago
silverneccho
@TheWORDisLIFE

Glad to see that you have shown your true colors!

"Christianity is a bunch of hypocrisy."

"You don't know any Scriptures."

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

I know my Bible, believe or not. I don't need to be ashamed, I came to my conclusions by reading the Word. Precept upon precept isn't a magic phrase sir. Precept upon precept actually entails you giving one iota of care about what you are reading.
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