Did Jesus come back in 70 AD
Debate Rounds (5)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:27-28)
Jesus promised those whom he was speaking to that His return would occur while some of them yet lived.
The Bible IS the inerrant word of God (millions of opinions there, but opinions do not make truth, truth makes truth)!
you state scripture that is emphatic and without error, it is the supposition or in this case the INTERPRETATION that is inferred that is in error. Let me explain.
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.~ 2 Peter 1:20
alas WE are NOT the prophets so personal interpretations ABOUND despite clear warnings against such!
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.~John 6:45
The meaning IS CLEAR, we (followers of Christ LEARN and are TAUGHT by God Himself). This means by a personal relationship we are taken by the hand and WALKED through the Bible.
Believers are instructed to:
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. ~2 Timothy 2:15
This doesn't happen once a week or twice a week .... it ONLY happens DAILY, with prayer.
So why so many opinions then? Because those who have not as yet Fully submitted to Christ authority, and read and study the scriptures only at Sunday school and in the Church pews, will take on the average 100 years to learn anything. Add to this that in their zeal they read everything from everyone with a pin ..... or quiver in some cases, accepting mans interpretation rather than letting God lead them, and only discover their error much later on as they mature in Christ!
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men~Matthew 15:9King
Now that that's out of the way lets look at the verse again with clear thought and no attempt to interpret of our own understanding! Letting God instead lead ..... and our eyes see!
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. <----- Period not a comma (.) New subject----> Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:27-28)
now lets look at it from the spiritual meanings from the standpoint that WE KNOW that the Bible IS the inerrant word of God!
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. <----Period again not a comma (.) is exponded on in the Books of John and revelation--->
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,~ John 5:22
The Final Judgment "13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.~Revelation 20:13-15
2nd half of passage and new subject-> Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ->
Jesus Appears to the Disciples Luke 24: (Kingdom's Arrival)
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
The Ascension of Jesus
50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
So all is written so all WILL BE DONE to the glory of God!
Matthew 16:27-28 continues to be a source of great consternation to Bible students. Jesus" emphatic statement about the time of his coming, the judgment and the kingdom challenges all futurist eschatologies. The number of "explanations" that have been offered to mitigate the power of Jesus" words is amazing. Most of these explanations are so patently ridiculous that one has to wonder at the desperation of traditionalists who make them. See my book Can You Believe Jesus Said This? for a discussion and refutation of the leading objections to Jesus" prediction. That book is available from this website.
The most common objection to Jesus" straightforward words is that his prediction was fulfilled just eight days later in the Transfiguration vision. We are told that the Transfiguration fulfilled Jesus" prediction, but, that in fact, his parousia" that which was predicted in Matthew 16:28 will occur at the end of the current Christian age.
So, what this means is that Matthew 16:28 was not actually fulfilled in the Transfiguration at all. It was a visionary forecast of the true fulfillment. It is even widely admitted that the Transfiguration was not the event itself that Jesus predicted but was somehow a typological, or symbolic vision of the fulfillment of what Jesus predicted.
Think about that for a moment. This means that Jesus was saying, "There are some standing here that shall not taste death until they see a vision of the yet future coming of the son of Man." This will not work, especially in light of Mark 9:1. When one examines the Greek of the text, notice the literal translation: "Verily I say to you, That there are certain of those standing here, who may not taste of death till they see the reign of God having come in power" (Young"s Literal. Notice also the RSV and other translations).
In other words, some standing there that day would not die until they saw that the coming of the Son of Man in the kingdom had come in power! They would live until that event. They would live through that event. They would look back on the fulfillment of Jesus" words.
Jesus was not saying, "Some standing here will not taste of death until they see a vision of the future coming." He said, "There are some standing here that shall not taste of death until they see that the kingdom of God after it has come with power" (NASB). The literal Greek of Mark totally dispels and destroys the idea of the Transfiguration being the fulfillment of Jesus" prediction.
Jesus" words "Some standing here" demands that the majority of those standing there would die before the parousia. The event he was predicting was to be sufficiently far off temporally that most of that audience would die, but some would survive to see his coming. Did only a handful of that multitude survive the next eight days until the Transfiguration? This "explanation" of Jesus" prediction is patently false on this fact alone, but, this is not nearly all.
Notice that only three men" three men!!" witnessed the Transfiguration. So, what we are being told is that Jesus, standing in the midst of a huge multitude, said "Some standing here will not die until the see the Son of Man coming" and what he meant by that was that "three of you standing here will not die until they see me coming." By the very nature of the case, this argument falls because it is so ludicrous.
It is argued that Peter"s referent to the Transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:16 proves that Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled on the Mount. But this simply is not true. (See my in-depth study of the Transfiguration in my The Elements Shall Melt With Fervent Heat, available on this website. The Transfiguration proves that the parousia was truly imminent in the first century, and was to be fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem).
Peter did appeal to the Transfiguration as a vision of the parousia. Of this there can be no doubt. And, he even said that that Transfiguration made the prophetic word more sure. But, he did not say that the Transfiguration fulfilled Jesus prediction in Matthew 16:28! To claim that Peter did say this is a gross mis-use of 2 Peter 1:16f.
Finally, it is argued that the Transfiguration proves that the Lord is to come at the end of the current (Christian) age. Nothing could be more false!
Now, it is true that the Transfiguration was a vision of the end of an age, of this there can be no doubt. But, of what age was the Transfiguration a vision of the impending or future end? It patently was not the Christian age. The Christian age has no end, so this fact alone destroys the argument, but, the Transfiguration vision itself defines the end that was to end.
What really happened on the Mount? Did the disciples witness a visionary end to planet earth? Did the see a vision of the end of time? Nothing in the vision even remotely suggests such a thing. Did they witness the end of the Gospel? Well, since Jesus said that his word" and thus the gospel age" will never pass away (Matthew 25:35) it is patently wrong to suggest that they saw such a thing. So, what did the disciples see? What age ended in the Transfiguration vision?
We have only to remember that in the vision, Moses and Elijah" who do not by any stretch of the imagination represent the current Christian age" appeared to Jesus. In his enthusiasm, Peter wanted to establish three tabernacles in honor of Moses, Elijah and Jesus. But what happened? Moses and Elijah vanished away, and the voice from heaven, the Bath Qol, said "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him!"
What happened on the Mount was that the disciples saw a vision of the passing of the Old Covenant age of Moses and Elijah! If the claim that Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled in the Transfiguration is true, then the vision itself does not match. The disciples should have seen Jesus fade away. Instead, they saw a vision of the establishment of the age and word of Jesus! The glory of Christ was established" not terminated" in the vision. The New Covenant age was depicted as transcendent over Moses and Elijah. The Transfiguration was not, in any way whatsoever, a vision of the passing of the current Christian age. Those who claim that the Transfiguration was a vision of the end of the Christian age must be able to show how and why the vanishing of Moses and Elijah represented and communicated the idea of the end of the Christian age. This cannot be done.
What all of this means, and I present much, much more in my book Can You Believe Jesus Said This?, proves beyond any doubt that Jesus" prediction in Matthew 16:28 was not fulfilled, typologically or in vision form, on the Mount of Transfiguration. That mountain top vision did confirm Jesus prophetic word as more sure, but, it did not fulfill his prophecy. The fulfillment of his words took place at the end of the age of Moses and Elijah, and that was at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The futurist "explanation" of Matthew 16:28 is false.
after all that was presented, opinions, Greek, Youngs literal, RSV, NBC, CBS, Escatologies, consternations ..... what we didn't get? Was the answer which was very simple. The question, the ONLY question was: Did Jesus com Back in 70 AD!
The Answer: NO
Clearly a reminder of scripture IS in order:The Requirements of God are simple! It's not rocket science people!
Luke 10:27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Isaiah 54:13 All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.
tell me you were left with a feeling of peace AFTER you reading my opponents statement?
okay, lets re-answer the question:
"Very I say unto you, there are some standing here that shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
The Kingdom of God arrived IN POWER in this order, Death, Resurrection, Ascension and finally on the day of Pentecost, WHEN the Holy Spirit came to INDWELL the children of God, imparting the true power of Christ.
John 14:12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
It's not hard people. Submit your reasoning, to God. Believe God, not Young, seminary scholars, multiple books, multiple versions, Greek, Aramaic, Latin, Your just gonna end up as confused as the scholars are, and worse NO CLOSER to the Real answer, that God would have freely given you, if you'd only asked Him?
In conclusion: Did Jesus Come in 70 AD: all together now ..........NO
and What is meant by matthew 16:27-28
That Christ will Judge the masses at the great white throne judgement when all dead shall be given up, from the seas, from Hell to be cast into the lake of Fire per Revelation.
and new subject: Men who WATCHED Christ die on the Cross, saw Him RISE in glory, honor and POWER, to the glory of the Father ..... The Children of Christ receiving the POWER of the Kingdom of God by the indwelling Holy Spirit ON Pentecost!
that wasn't hard was it? Now Go and be at peace. Don't forget to study and spend time WITH God everyday! You'll be GLAD you did!
axelreid forfeited this round.
It is precisely this neglect that has given RISE to denominations. Because professed believers, become neglectful in the study of God's word, they can be convinced of virtually anything, that, if attempted on a true follower of God, who studies Gods word, daily, seeking Gods face daily, listening to the instructions given of God BY God ..... they would never fall for it.
You heard it here first people! God adamantly tells you to PROVE everything told to you with the word, yet MOST fail in this requirement.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
* This IS NOT A REQUEST its a command!*
1 Corinthians 14:29
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The First mistake made by the average Believer is caused of ignorance of scripture. They are not told or informed that it IS GOD who will be in charge of all their teaching. Question: You BELIEVE in God?, You NOW God DOES exist? WHY then do you seek after others for your training? IF God is real, and you know he exist, do you not know that He is also capable of teaching you Himself? Does it even MAKE any sense that God would send you, His most loved creation to someone ELSE to learn? Of course not! Check it out:
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
who will make clear to you? That's right God Will, not a scholar, theologian, books, websites etc...
The Bible IS the ONLY authority of all life, nothing else is required to understand God's word BUT Gods word.!
YOU SHALL NOT INTERPRET SCRIPTURE! This is the downfall of many a christian.
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.~
Think! IF God DID NOT ALLOW the prophets or the Apostles to interpret scripture but instead write precisely what they were told. (yes the apostles CLARIFIED to other believers what God told THEM, they did not interpret because THEY had full understanding given them by Christ). WHY would you EVER believe IT IS OKAY for plain Christians, scholars, theologians seminaries or anyone ELSE to do it! When Gods Word specifically says YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, that NO PROPHECY OR SCRIPTURE came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. Your not to do it! When they do, it's going to always be wrong! and will lead you astray. You can trust God and God alone .... everyone else is guessing! WE do NOT guess.
Pondering things that have NO IMPORTANCE in Gods salvation plan. Do you NOT have enough to learn WITHOUT wasting time and energy on things that even God did not think was important enough to talk about? So then why do YOU ponder them. You already have trouble just studying Gods word on the important things NOW. Why are you wasting valuable time on the useless, pointless, bypassing the helpful, needful, useful, purposeful ....
~ John 14:2
My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Here Christ tells us ALL He would have told us. Not just about THIS .... He would have told us ALL we needed to know. If the scriptures do not cover it ... it was not important enough to discuss it!
Many a believer still walk day to day under the delusion that they have a right to their opinion! You are wrong!
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- Romans 6:6
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
is this true of you?
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
is this you?
Life by the Spirit
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
see that? YOU ARE NOT TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT!
Life of the Flesh
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1. sexual immorality - the evil ascribed to sexual acts that violate social conventions; "sexual immorality is the major reason for last year's record number of abortions"
U96;evil, wickedness, immorality, iniquity - morally objectionable behavior
impurity. 1.the quality or condition of being impure.
synonyms: adulteration " debasement " degradation " corruption "
contamination " pollution " immorality " sin " sinfulness " wickedness " unchastity " lustfulness " lechery " lecherousness " lewdness " lasciviousness " prurience " obscenity " dirtiness " crudeness " indecency " ribaldry " impropriety " vulgarity " depravity " coarseness " concupiscence
Debachery:excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures.
synonyms: dissipation " degeneracy " corruption " vice " depravity "
immodesty " indecency " perversion " iniquity " wickedness " sinfulness " impropriety " immorality " lasciviousness " salaciousness " lechery " lewdness " lust " promiscuity " wantonness " profligacy " decadence " intemperance " sybaritism " turpitude
Selfish: (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure:
synonyms: egocentric " egotistic " egotistical " egomaniacal "
self-centered " self-absorbed " self-obsessed " self-seeking " self-serving " wrapped up in oneself " inconsiderate " thoughtless " unthinking " uncaring " uncharitable " mean " miserly " grasping " greedy " mercenary " acquisitive " opportunistic " looking after number one
As a Believer do you think God means YOUR or Societies INTERPRETATIONS of these actions? ..... or His!
you have a dictionary look up the others yourself, after all YOUR that one being held accountable .... aren't you?
Galatians 5: 22-24
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Do you belong to Christ? If so HAVE you crucified the Flesh? If not ...... WHY not? Start today! Are you seeking interpretations through OTHER than the scriptures and God, if so ....Why? Do not follow the blind lest like them you both fall in the ditch! Return to Christ while there is yet time.
axelreid forfeited this round.
Incredibly it would not leave me with a desperately troubled feeling of sorrow, if I just KNEW, that they were speaking from a point of longstanding study, for which they had some form of confidence. At least THEN I could look at them individually and say, hey, they done their homework, and although they have come to the WRONG conclusion, they do have the right of choice! they are going into this with their eyes open.
How so very sad that this IS NOT the case here! Almost 100% of those who DENY Christ have NEVER seriously looked for Him. Their views on the origin of the world, mans evolution is based entirely, on the flawed and biased scientific evidence. Not one of them have ACTUALLY reviewed the data themselves, instead having relied on the opinions of people who at the onset had an agenda. Mans idea of facts have unfortunately NOTHING to do with actual facts, just theory.
As I glanced through the morning news ... There it was .... yet another example of mans idea of science fact ..... hear ye hear ye, Bermuda Triangle "Solved"? The scientists suggest the methane bursts may be responsible for the supposed graveyard of shipwrecks and plane crashes in the Bermuda Triangle.
Suggest? Think? Believe? imagine? speculate? are sure of? The theory of evolution is based on exactly these same types of claims, .... claims that when looked up prove themselves to be just another hypothesis, another theory.
Ladies and gentlemen. I HAVE PERSONALLY, walked in the light of scripture. I have personally studied Gods word WITH God and God only as my teacher AND my guide. I now once again, bear witness to the REALITY of God! He exists, and is ready to make Himself known to a corrupt and sinful world.
It doesn't have to be that way for you. Repent and seek Him NOW, before the time is past! Won't you at the very least take up an individual study, ask God to help you to see the truth in His word? I know He will IF you come to Him. The time IS short.
2 Thessalonians 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us"whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter"asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don"t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [Jesus' return] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction," (2 Thess. 2:3, NASB).
This speaks of the great apostasy -the great falling away from the truth of God. "Apostasy means to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth. In the Old Testament, God warned the Jewish people about their idolatry and their lack of trust in Him. In the New Testament, the epistles warn us about not falling away from the truth. Apostasy is a very real and dangerous threat."
It is clear that religion has begun a transition, from Gospel truth, to Mans truth. New Bibles of today are delibrately leaving out scriptures, others are changing their canon to facilitate the ideas and beliefs of men! Others claim the scriptures are archaic and MUST conform to progressive society. A society, who has forsaken morality, decency, modesty .... calling good evil, calling evil good. Did not God also say this WOULD be the style of life WHEN the end came?
2 Timothy 3
3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
are you ready? If not ..... why not!
axelreid forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 11 months ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||0||1|
Reasons for voting decision: Pro ff many times, so conduct to Con.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.