The Instigator
White_Fire
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
SirStevereno
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Did Jesus teach pacifism?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
White_Fire
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 798 times Debate No: 68768
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

White_Fire

Con

This debate will be focused on whether Jesus taught pacifism,or the teaching that we should not use violence or defend ourselves ,if you will. I am con,against the belief that Jesus taught pacifism,but that Jesus taught a righteous use of force.This debate is more for those who are firm believers in Christianity.(E.g. Protestant,non-denominational,baptist etc.) Other religions will not be allowed to debate unless they are solely going to debate whether Jesus taught pacifism according to what he did in the bible and the bible alone.There will be 3 rounds,3 days to reply,and a 4 thousand character limit.The voting period will happen over the course of a week,
SirStevereno

Pro

No. Jesus Christ taught peace and love for neighbor. That those who lived by the sword would die by the sword. He is called the Prince of Peace and taught his follower's to preach the Good News of his Kingdom which was prophesied to come at an appointed time after his death and resurrection. Jesus died willfully, without violence on his part, as an ultimate example for us,

NET Bible
We have come to know love by this: that Jesus laid down his life for us; thus we ought to lay down our lives for our fellow Christians.`1John 3:16
Debate Round No. 1
White_Fire

Con

Thank you for participating in the debate. I hope this will be a fruitful experience for both of us.I apologize for the confusion,there will be a two week voting period.

I will number my points in response to yours.

1.In response to what you say Jesus taught,let me bring up scripture that shows that Jesus cannot be teaching pacifism.
We must not forget that Jesus of the New Testament is also God of the Old Testament.
Because the character of God never changes (Psalms 102:27; Mal 3:6; James 1:17), the moral character of Jesus cannot be different than it always had been and always will be without variation.

1a. So, if God in the Old Testament approved Just War (as in Deuteronomy 20 and Amos 1), then so did Jesus in the New Testament.
This is an important part of the essential doctrine affirmed about Jesus in the book of Hebrews, which is that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Heb 13:8).

1b.God commanding the Israelites to wipe out entire nations in the Old Testament(1 Samuel 15:3,Deuteronomy 20:17) when the commandment,"thou shalt not kill",was in place, and then teaching pacifism through Jesus is a huge contradiction in character and scripture!

2."He is called the Prince of Peace." - While it is true this is one of the things he is called, he is not known to show complete pacifism in the New Testament.
Jesus ran out the merchants in the temple with a whip.(John 2:15)
Because this obviously shows Jesus supports pacifism right?
Even if he didn't strike anyone,he still did not exercise the principles of Pacifism in doing this.

2a.He is God,he could have done anything else to remove the merchants,but instead he seems to be setting an example that there is a time for being pacifistic and a time for using force.

3.His apostles do not exercise Pacifism and are righteous in God's eyes.
Jesus taught we aren't to resist evil and that we should turn the other cheek right?Paul didn't (Acts 22:22-29) when he asserting his rights as a Roman citizen when they were about to flog him.
Other Apostles were told not to preach by authorities and disobeyed both them and the command "submit to your authorities" given by Jesus.(Acts 5:12-41)
Obviously when Jesus told his disciples not to resist,pacifism was not what he taught.

God doesn't change,SirStevereno,God approving of one thing and then suddenly approving another is obviously a change in character.You cannot take everything Jesus says on the mount and in the NT literally when it contradicts scripture.

3a.Obviously God teaches us that there is a righteous use of force.
I am not saying we should never be pacifistic, on the contrary,I hate war and death.
I am a firm believer that there are times when we should be pacifistic.It is usually the answer to many problems we encounter daily,yet it becomes obvious when we look at scripture that God does not consider just war or self-defence, sin.

-References-
Psalms 102:27
Mal 3:6
James 1:17
Deuteronomy 20
Amos 1
Heb 13:8
1 Samuel 15:3
Deuteronomy 20:17
John 2:15
Acts 22:22-29
Acts 5:12-41
SirStevereno

Pro

[Me]<< I wish you would show the expressed point you are responding to in particular. Also, I would hope that you would not just list a series of scriptural citations hoping that myself or our readers will look them up and come to our own conclusions as to what they say or mean otherwise the theme of our discussion will tend to get lost.
Having said that, your premise that Jesus was the God of the "Old Testament" (What I call the Hebrew/Aramaic scriptures) is a erroneous statement at best. You are confusing Yahweh or Jehovah in English (the Hebrew God) with Yeshua (Jesus Christ). There are a few transcribed errors in our modern day Bible John 1:1 where it says, " ...and the Word was God" It should say and the "...and the Word was a God...or ...and the word was a god.

Almighty God Yahweh brought forth Yehshua as his first born of all Creation, that birth is or formation is essentially described in Proverbs 8:22-31.
In part...
"22 The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works [e]of old.
23 "From everlasting I was [f]established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was [g]brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was [h]brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the [i]fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.---New American Standard Bible

Course...here we are getting side-tracked. Whether Jesus is God or God's Son is another argument in itself.
What was Jesus' mission on earth?
Luke 1:76-79
76 "And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways;
77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
[b]By the forgiveness of their sins,
78 Because of the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Sunrise from on high will visit us,
79 To shine upon those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace."

Obviously, a new standard.

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [a]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. --Matthew 5:43-45(NASB)

[You}1a. So, if God in the Old Testament approved Just War (as in Deuteronomy 20 and Amos 1), then so did Jesus in the New Testament.
This is an important part of the essential doctrine affirmed about Jesus in the book of Hebrews, which is that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Heb 13:8).

[Me]>>Again, supposition on your part. Read the context! His message does not change.
Hebrews 13:6-8New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 so that we confidently say,
"The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid.
What will man do to me?"
7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the [a]result of their conduct, imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. "
This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel--that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.~~Acts 10:36 (New Living Translation)<<<

[You] 2."He is called the Prince of Peace." ...he is not known to show complete pacifism in the New Testament. Jesus ran out the merchants in the temple with a whip.(John 2:15)

[Me] Surely you know, Jesus was not a Christian...right?

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."~~Galatians 5:22,23

Jesus is the Prince of Peace, there is no compromise. He has no peer.

*I had to edit this...I was well over the 4,000 word limit. I am not going to try and handle each point next time, which is what I tried to do. I'll just try and make my closing case.

Regards, Steve
Debate Round No. 2
White_Fire

Con

1.Wrong translations with modern day bibles on John 1:1?
John 1:1 Aramaic Bible - "In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word -was himself God-."
You and I must have different Hebrew/Aramaic Bibles,my translation says the otherwise.I will address this below.

2.You did not address anything with Proverbs 8:22-31.Look at the context,the chapter is talking about wisdom.This is not talking about Jesus.
Jesus did not claim to be separate from God,but to be him.Simply because you don't understand the trinity does not disprove it's authenticity.Look at what the book of John says.
John 10:30- "I and my Father, We are One." - Aramaic Bible
John 14:9 - Yeshua said to him, "All this time I am with you and you have not known me Phillip? Whoever has seen me has seen The Father, and how do you say, 'Show us The Father'?" - Aramaic Bible

2a.Look at the burning bush in the OD,Moses asked what to call God,God said to Moses,"I AM THAT I AM"(Exodus 3:13-14)
And look what Jesus says in John 8:57-59 - Aramaic Bible
58 Yeshua said to them: "Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD." 59 And they picked up stones to stone him, and Yeshua hid himself and went out from The Temple and passed through their midst and moved on.
The Jews knew that he was referring to himself as being God,and you want to argue Jesus isn't the God of the OD?

3.Luke 1:76-79-"A new standard"?
Where in the Bible does it say that the old Testament is now superseded by the new?
If anything Jesus says the opposite about the old testament.

"17 Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I say to you that until Heaven and earth will pass away, one Yodh or one Taag will not pass away from The Written Law until everything will happen." (Matthew 5:17-18 Aramaic Bible)

19 Everyone therefore who violates one of these small commandments and will teach thus to the children of men will be called small in the Kingdom of Heaven, but everyone who will do and will teach the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 5:19 Aramaic Bible)
Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

"Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16 Aramaic Bible)

3."Surely you know, Jesus was not a Christian...right?"
I hate pointing out the obvious in a mean manner,but this is the most unscriptural response I have ever heard.
The very definition of the word "christian",means to be like Jesus Christ.(Webster's Definition)
If Jesus could do whatever he wanted while telling his followers to do the opposite,he would be,by definition,sinning.
God is holy and He cannot sin.
The Bible tells us He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18 - Aramaic Bible."That by two unchangeable matters, because God cannot lie about them, we who have sought refuge in him have great comfort, and we may seize the hope which was promised to us.)
(Also see Titus 1:2)

Also, since God is eternal by nature (Psalm 90:2), He cannot stop being God. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13). God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone with evil (James 1:13).

In conclusion,Jesus is God,,as I've already explained,God doesn't change,pacifism is not optional as it contradicts God's character.

-References-
http://biblehub.com...
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http://biblehub.com...
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http://biblehub.com...
http://biblehub.com...
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http://www.webster-dictionary.org...
SirStevereno

Pro

It is quite obvious that the cruces of White_Fire's argument lies in his opinion that Jesus is God...because the Hebrew God Yahweh or Jeh0vah has used violence in the past to punish and destroy then what Jesus taught in regards the new covenant and the peaceful ways his disciples were to behave as per his new teachings and those which his Apostles/disciple's expounded on in further measure a short time later. He dodges most of what

[Him]-->1.Wrong translations with modern day bibles on John 1:1?
John 1:1 Aramaic Bible - "In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word -was himself God-<<

The quote he makes here is obviously errant, as it doesn't make sense. The Bible is given to us to help us understand God, his righteous purposes and divine standards. Yet the quote is very confusing at best! For if the Word was God, why does it say, "...was with God."? We don't have to be an English teacher to see the direct contradiction. God is no fool.

[Him]-->2.You did not address anything with Proverbs 8:22-31.Look at the context,the chapter is talking about wisdom.This is not talking about Jesus..>

[Me] Wisdom in deed, but not God's wisdom, because in this sense whatever the "wisdom" is...was produced or brought forth...and as verse 30 says ...
30
Then I was constantly[c] at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,(NIV)

God has always been wise. So...in this sense wisdom is obviously a person at God's side and that is delighted to be there. It/he has his own feelings.

[Him] -(quoted) "John 10:30- "I and my Father, We are One." - Aramaic Bible

[Me] He doesn't seem to understand how two or more can be one? (as in a single unit)

John 17:20-21New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,[a] so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Footnotes:
a.John 17:21 Other ancient authorities read be one in us <>

[Him]-->2a.Look at the burning bush in the OD,Moses asked what to call God,God said to Moses,"I AM THAT I AM"(Exodus 3:13-14)
And look what Jesus says in John 8:57-59 - Aramaic Bible
58 Yeshua said to them: "Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD." 59 And they picked up stones to stone him, and Yeshua hid himself and went out from The Temple and passed through their midst and moved on.<>

[Me] Jesus, Yeshua never said "I AM THE LIVING GOD" A more correct quote of the verse...
John 8:58New International Version (NIV)
58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" <>

Of course as already noted Jesus "Wisdom" was around long before Abraham...he being the first born of all creation.

[Him]---->3.Luke 1:76-79-"A new standard"?
Where in the Bible does it say that the old Testament is now superseded by the new?

[Me]--->Hebrews 8:6
"But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises."(NIV) I never used the term superseded. Only made the point that Christians have a new way of living. New Standards.

Him--->3."Surely you know, Jesus was not a Christian...right?"
I hate pointing out the obvious in a mean manner,but this is the most unscriptural response I have ever heard.<>

[M]---> I thought everyone knew that Jesus was a Jew and lived by Hebrew law. Christians did not come into being until later.
Acts 11:26(NIV)
26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Jesus taught "...I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you" Luke 6:27 (NIV)

Thanks!
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by SirStevereno 2 years ago
SirStevereno
White_fire---> Ladies and gentlemen, it is not my goal nor the goal of this debate to argue with someone who seems to be a Jehovah's witness on the trinity, again SirStevereno, simply because you do not understand how God can be 3 persons in one does not disprove the trinity's authenticity. <

White_fire, you were the one that went on a rant as to whom you think Jesus Christ is...as opposed to his actual teachings...concerning peaceful living...or what you call pacifism. Although it is noted that you duck away from Christ's teachings. Surely, if the Trinity were true, there would be many instances of the teaching. Instead...you see what you want to see, like so many others do, unfortunately.

With Trinitarian distortion You quote : "They all shouted, "So, are you claiming to be the Son of God?" And he replied, "You say that I am." [Luke:22:70]--- You left out verse 22:69 that shows "But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God's right hand.". I wonder why you omit that very significant fact?

But what is worse...you go on and claim..."Jesus didn't deny that he was God here, he simply acknowledged that they called him God."...even when they are calling him the Son of God. What a shame.

Here is what they believed, but you may need some glasses..."68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."--(KJV)

Even in Heaven, Christ is separate from God [Yahweh]...
"1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"-Rev.1:1 (KJ)

Now if Jesus was God, there would be no need to give it to Jesus, for he would already have it.

1 Corinthians 11:3 says clearly that "and the head of Christ is God"

I am done. We are way off the subject. Believe what you will. Tak
Posted by White_Fire 2 years ago
White_Fire
Ladies and gentlemen, it is not my goal nor the goal of this debate to argue with someone who seems to be a Jehovah's witness on the trinity, again SirStevereno, simply because you do not understand how God can be 3 persons in one does not disprove the trinity's authenticity. You not understanding how Jesus could be the God of the OT is not addressing what Jesus said many times in the NT even if you believe it does.

So, are you claiming to be the Son of God? And he replied, "You say that I am."

Jesus didn't deny that he was God here, he simply acknowledged that they called him God.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.""

Then why did Jesus accept worship if he is not God? Not once did Jesus tell people not to worship him like they would God, and you say they are not one and the same?

Matthew 28:9-10
Matthew 21:9;
John 12:13

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.

You are right, Jesus is not a "Christian", he is God.

John 14:9King James Version (KJV)
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

You say God is separate from Jesus, Jesus did not claim to be separate from God, he claimed to be Him.

Again, look at the burning bush in the OT, Moses asked what to call God, God said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM"(Exodus 3:13-14)
And look what Jesus says in John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

God was violent in the OT, Jesus is God, he can't be teaching pacifism when it violates God's character.
I'm done debating this.
God bless
Posted by SirStevereno 2 years ago
SirStevereno
Hello, I am aware of most Trinitarian scriptures thank you and nowhere does Jesus say he was God. In fact, there are far more scriptures that dispute such a notion. not to mention his action's of servitude and supplication.

John 20:17New International Version (NIV)
17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.""

Trinitarian views are in fact distortions of the actual scriptural message.

John 17:3New International Version (NIV)
"3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. "

It is quite strange to me, here we have Jesus Christ praying to his Father, calling him the only true God and acknowledging the fact that God had sent him. You see, one cannot send himself. He just goes wherever he wants to go. Surely, Christ is divine and greatly favored in a prehumen existence, but he NEVER claimed to be God! He obviously taught he was the Son of God and that is exactly what his enemies accused him of.

New Living Translation
"But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God's right hand. They all shouted, "So, are you claiming to be the Son of God?" And he replied, "You say that I am."

I am not going to go on and on about this. You are welcome to believe as you wish. However, do yourselves a favor sometime and do a little fervent study on the actual history of the so-called Holy Trinity.

Trinity | Christian Beliefs | Religion Facts
www.religionfacts.com " christianity " beliefs
The doctrine of the trinity was first thoroughly and formally articulated in the fourth century in response to perceived distortions of biblical teaching

Listen to what Jesus actually taught for a change.

Mark 9:7 - Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"

Regard
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
If you are person of the bible you should look up the quotes. If you don't know them then you will learn them.
Posted by White_Fire 2 years ago
White_Fire
Before you vote, please take into account all I have presented.
My opponent has not addressed my biggest point even if he believes he has.
Which is that God in the Old Testament did not support complete pacifism. He commanded his people to wipe out entire nations(as in Deuteronomy 20) when he already said, "thou shall not murder".
I have already proved that Jesus is the God of the Old testament, and that because of this, Jesus cannot be teaching pacifism regardless of whether my opponent believes he did or not.
Also Jesus did not act with complete pacifism in the New Testament (as in John 2:15).
Again, I am not against being pacifistic, but to say that Jesus taught we should never defend ourselves or participate in just war, is complete dogma as it would contradict scripture.
Again, thank you for participating or reading the debate. :-)
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
Jesus didnt write revalation. John did.
The only books Jesus was actually on the Earth for was Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. He was very peaceful-dying for all when he could have destroyed us. He was so pacifistic he didn't even try to fight back.
He was humble, wise, and peaceful. He had the power to kill every man who dared oppose him. But out of his love and peaceful principles, he didn't. Now how is that not pacifistic?
Posted by Esiar 2 years ago
Esiar
He did and didn't. Jesus uses violence in Revelation, but he also taught to turn the other cheek. It depends on the circumstances.
Posted by mkieblesz 2 years ago
mkieblesz
What is happening?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
White_FireSirSteverenoTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Con used biblical sources. I strongly believe pro shouldn't have called out con on just throwing quotes down, but I don't find it to be rude so I won't deduct conduct points.