The Instigator
Mathaelthedestroyer
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
THEBOMB
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Did Judas go to heaven?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Mathaelthedestroyer
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/3/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,192 times Debate No: 25438
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (3)

 

Mathaelthedestroyer

Pro

This is just meant to be a short, fun debate. To be honest, I'm not really looking for a 7,000 character argument with twenty sources. I just want to hear someone else's opinion on this. (I guess you could call this a more 'theoretical' debate.) I haven't personally looked into this argument from a theistic standpoint, it's just a thought that's always interested me.

That out of the way, I am pro for this debate, meaning that I am affirming the notion that Judas Iscariot is in heaven. Round one is acceptance, round two is arguments, round three is rebuttals and closing statements. Again, I'd like to keep this one short and fun. Should be an interesting debate either way.

Feel free to leave a comment about the structure or whatever.

Note: I do not believe that heaven exists. I am debating this under a hypothetical assumption. Obviously, for the purposes of the debate, con will need to assume that it does too.
THEBOMB

Con

Thank you for this wonderful debate oppurtunity :)

I will assume that we are arguing from the Christian perspective on matters, thus the bible is considered an infallible source of truth for the debate at hand. I will assume the existence of Heaven, Hell, and God.

To be clear and upfront, I will be arguing that as fallible human beings we 1) cannot know whether Judas went to heaven or hell and 2) we do not have the authority to declare the fate of another persons eternal soul. If I can prove either 1) or 2) my burden is upheld and a CON vote is the only way to go.

Good luck! And with all that aside, I will allow my opponent to make their opening arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Mathaelthedestroyer

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. It should be a lot of fun.

My argument is extremely short and simple, and I hope con isn't disappointed by that. Either way, I'll begin.

Judas must be in heaven because without him, Jesus could never have died for our sins. If Jesus did not die for our sins, no one can get into heaven. Judas played an absolutely essential role in this. Assuming God is omniscient, he knew Judas was going to betray Jesus; and, according to the bible, someone had to betray him. This responsibility happened to fall on Judas, and why should he be punished for this? If Jesus asked his father to forgive the very men who were driving nails into his wrists, (and Jesus is also God in a different manifestation, from which we can conclude his 'request' was surely answered), surely he could forgive a beloved disciple who simply played a part in the plan? After all, Peter's denial was necessary to the redemption, and he was made the first Pope; undoubtedly he is in heaven. But I digress. My point is essentially that Judas had to betray Jesus for the sacrifice to take place at all. Since God is all knowing, he knew Judas would do this anyway. Since God is all loving, how could he punish someone for doing what had to be done in order for the sacrifice to be complete?

Anticipated argument: By this logic, the soldiers that killed Jesus are in heaven too. I would affirm that that is true as well. (Especially since, as I already stated, Jesus asked for them to be forgiven, which, given his status, was essentially him saying that they were forgiven.)

I look forward to con's argument. It should be interesting.
THEBOMB

Con

Thank you for the instigation of this wonderful debate :)

I will start off with my own case.


I just realized that 1) and 2) are almost the same, but nevertheless my case is also rather simple...


Faith, in Jesus, is necessary to be saved (Jn 3:16, Rom 3:22, Rom 3:24, Rom 3:26, Rom 3:28-30, Rom 4:3)


Now from here my case is rather simple, faith is a personal matter between a person and God. You can declare your faith openly and say "I believe in God, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to earth to save man" etc. But, ultimately, that does not detirmine whether you have faith, faith is in your heart. What you believe in the deepest recesses of your mind. No mortal man can know whether or not Judas, at his death, truly believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Or even whether he believed in God at all. We cannot know for certain whether any of the disciples believed this. Although we can be pretty darn sure they did. As we cannot know what Judas truly felt in the bottom of his heart, we cannot know whether or not Judas went to heaven. We cannot know whether Judas has faith. We can know he declared his faith, but that does not mean he had faith. Since we do not have knowledge of Judas's faith, we cannot have knowledge of whether Judas is in heaven or in hell.

We do not have the authority to say whether or not someone is in heaven or hell

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7). The point is, who is anybody to say whether Judas is condemned or saved? Whether or not your entire argument for or against the couple is based upon the bible, logic, whatever, you are committing the moral sin of pride. You take it upon yourself to say whether they are saved when in fact, it is not your place to say so. Hypothetically or not. No Christian or other person can justify saying "Person X will go to hell/heaven because of action Y." In the Christian perspective, only God has that right.


Now my opponent's case...

"Judas must be in heaven because without him, Jesus could never have died for our sins."

How do you know that Judas believed Jesus died for our sins?

"If Jesus did not die for our sins, no one can get into heaven. Judas played an absolutely essential role in this."

He may have played a role in the whole thing, but that does not mean he truly believed.

"Assuming God is omniscient, he knew Judas was going to betray Jesus; and, according to the bible, someone had to betray him. This responsibility happened to fall on Judas, and why should he be punished for this?"

All of this is correct, but you assume that if Judas was punished, he would be punished for his actions. Why must this be so?

"If Jesus asked his father to forgive the very men who were driving nails into his wrists, (and Jesus is also God in a different manifestation, from which we can conclude his 'request' was surely answered), surely he could forgive a beloved disciple who simply played a part in the plan?"

But, did he forgive Judas? Also, like I said, even if Jesus forgave Judas 1000 times over it would be irrelevant unless Judas had true faith in Jesus. We cannot have this knowledge, only God does.

"After all, Peter's denial was necessary to the redemption, and he was made the first Pope; undoubtedly he is in heaven."

Assumption. How do you know?

"My point is essentially that Judas had to betray Jesus for the sacrifice to take place at all. Since God is all knowing, he knew Judas would do this anyway. Since God is all loving, how could he punish someone for doing what had to be done in order for the sacrifice to be complete?"

You once again assume that if Judas was "punished" it would be for his actions.
Debate Round No. 2
Mathaelthedestroyer

Pro

I would once again like to thank my opponent for accepting this argument. I'd also like to thank him for his conduct, and for not resorting to name-calling or other childish actions or arguments. He has presented an interesting case.

However, he has not made much of a case for affirming that Judas is not in heaven; rather, he has said that neither position on this debate can be "known." I fully agree with my opponent here and happily concede this point. But I also tried to make it clear in round one that this was a bit of a theoretical debate and would require some assuming. I don't believe in heaven, God, sin, or the authenticity of the Bible, so obviously I have to do a lot of assuming and hypothetical thinking for this debate to even take place. My opponent does make an interesting point about Judas's fate not being so much a matter of his actions, but more so a matter of his faith. That may be true. But I think his actions do give us an idea of his faith. For example, Judas throwing his silver on the ground in front of the pharisees and then proceeding to kill himself should tell us a good deal about what he really believed. He must have, at the very least, thought Jesus was very probably the son of God; why else would he feel such overwhelming guilt? Why else would he discard his reward and seek to end his own life? From this, I think we can infer that he had at least some faith in Jesus being God and must have at least wanted forgiveness, whether he actually got it or not.

Although I have not addressed my opponent's specific arguments, I feel that this summary adequately addresses the overarching theme of his contentions. He posits that we cannot know who is in heaven and who is not; I concede this points. He also asserts that Judas's faith, not his actions, determined his fate; I feel that I have addressed this in the above argument.

In closing, I believe that if a heaven exists, Judas must be there. He was a pawn in an unfortunate set of events, but without him, there is no Christian salvation. God must have known he would do this, and being all loving, how could he condemn such a man? Further, we can conclude from Judas's actions of repentance that he did want forgiveness and had at least some faith in Jesus. Therefore, no loving God could send him to hell.
THEBOMB

Con

Thank you for this debate :) It was interesting.

I would like to point out one thing, my burden was not to prove Judas was not in heaven. The resolution inherent within the question is as such, Resolved: Judas is in heaven. My burden was to simply disprove this statement by my opponent. My argument was that because we cannot have the knowledge needed to say whether or not Judas is or is not in heaven, as people, we are unjustified in saying Judas is in heaven or hell. Because we cannot justify Judas being in heaven or hell, my opponent cannot justify Judas being in heaven.

I would also like to point out that my opponent has conceded my arguments.


My opponent asks one main question about whether or not Judas felt that Jesus was the son of God.

"Judas throwing his silver on the ground in front of the pharisees and then proceeding to kill himself should tell us a good deal about what he really believed. He must have, at the very least, thought Jesus was very probably the son of God; why else would he feel such overwhelming guilt?"

All actions aside, we cannot know what is in someone's heart. Here my opponent postit's that Judas killed himself because he felt guilt at killing Jesus because Jesus was the Son of God. But, this says nothing about what Judas believed simply because, could he have simply not felt guilty at causing the death of another human being who had done him no harm and had treated him very well? Not to mention that Jesus was crucified which is not by any stretch of the imagination a pleasent or painless death. Furthermore, almost everybody agreed that Jesus was innocent. Look at his trial, the Pharisees brought in false witnesses. Pilate believed that Jesus was innocent of all crimes.

Why else would he discard his reward and seek to end his own life?"

Out of shame and guilt. He had condemned the man who had treated him with respect and dignity and frankly, very well to death. Think of it another way, if you had basically condemned someone who loved you with all their heart and was very close to you, to death how would you feel, regardless of whether you believed they were god or not?


In sum, if heaven exists, if hell exists, we as mortal men cannot know who is in heaven or in hell. Simply put, we cannot know somebodies faith.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by BradN 5 months ago
BradN
What are your thoughts on a Matthew 19:28? Jesus is addressing the "original" 12 apostles, of which Judas is one. Matt. 19:27-28: Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Posted by Mathaelthedestroyer 2 years ago
Mathaelthedestroyer
Well don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. I suppose we just saw it a bit differently. Nothing wrong with that.
Posted by THEBOMB 2 years ago
THEBOMB
We were assuming the existence of the Christian god, for this debate, so what we were debating is theoretical. We were debating over what god would do. No Christian would ever claim to have full knowledge of the actions god would take in a particular situaion. That was the debate. The resolution was "Judas went to heaven" which is saying god would not condemn Judas to hell because x, y, and z therefore Judas in heaven because x, y, and z. There are extents to our knowledge, and since we cannot know whether Judas was condemned or saved, you cannot justify the position "Judas went to heaven." Since it is unjustifiable, the resolution was defeated. Since it was your burden to justify the resolution.
Posted by Mathaelthedestroyer 2 years ago
Mathaelthedestroyer
Ah, but I'm not so sure about that. I agree that theology is completely theoretical, but many Christians maintain that the authenticity of the bible is proven through its historical authenticity. In other words, that we know Jesus existed, etc. because it confirms other (typically secular) historical accounts. Thus, if we can know that part X of the bible is true through historical means, we can infer that part Y is as well. However, if you maintain that it is completely theoretical, then no burden of 'proof' can really exist; therefore, you would have had to affirm that Judas was not in heaven, based on your own theoretical arguments, not just that neither can be known.
Posted by THEBOMB 2 years ago
THEBOMB
Theology is completely theoretical. That is what we were debating, theology. The simple fact that we can't know means we cannot definitively say one way or the other, meaning the resolution had been defeated ^.^
Posted by Mathaelthedestroyer 2 years ago
Mathaelthedestroyer
And I conceded that we cannot know, but I also tried to make it pretty clear that the debate was intended to be theoretical, so that's a fairly irrelevant point. I respect your decision, though. And that's not to say con didn't put up a very good argument.
Posted by Doulos1202 2 years ago
Doulos1202
Judas looked at Jesus more as a potential king in a secular way also nowhere in the Bible does Judas seek forgiveness for his sins. He merely stated that he spilled innocent blood. Judas is is probably in Hell but Con is exactly right by stating that we do not have the authority to determine this.
Posted by Mathaelthedestroyer 2 years ago
Mathaelthedestroyer
Interesting. I'd assume since Judas originates in the Christian bible that would be pretty clear; regardless, I will specify that incase a non-Christian wants to debate this. Good call.
Posted by yuiru 2 years ago
yuiru
You should also specify which heaven or religion.
Posted by Mathaelthedestroyer 2 years ago
Mathaelthedestroyer
Agreed. I guess I'll change that in the debate, so con will have to make that assumption.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Travniki 2 years ago
Travniki
MathaelthedestroyerTHEBOMBTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I did not understand cons self proclaimed burden of proof. I read the resolution to mean "It is more likely than not that Judas went to heaven". I don't see how humans not having the authority to pass judegment comes into this. Pro gave me reasonable proof that it is likely that Judas went to heaven for playing a role in the salvation of man and possible repentance, while con stuck his heels in the ground and repeated that no ne can truly know who goes to hell.
Vote Placed by Doulos1202 2 years ago
Doulos1202
MathaelthedestroyerTHEBOMBTied
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Reasons for voting decision: See comments for RFD.
Vote Placed by Jessalyn 2 years ago
Jessalyn
MathaelthedestroyerTHEBOMBTied
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Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: While both sides did well, a great amount of Con's case was focused on the fact that the resolution cannot be known. Pro intended for the debate to be theoretical, as he said, and seemed to present slightly better arguments supporting his side rather than the middleground argument (that it cannot be known either way.)