The Instigator
Korashk
Pro (for)
Winning
26 Points
The Contender
Sorrow
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

Did L or Light win?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
Korashk
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/20/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,234 times Debate No: 11489
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (6)

 

Korashk

Pro

I am creating this debate to determine which character in the Death Note anime "won" as in emerged victorious at the anime's conclusion. The choices are either Light or L/N/M.

I will allow my opponent to choose a side in round one and rounds two-four are for attempting to affirm your case and refute mine. For the purposes of this debate I ask that semantics not be used.

In this debate both sides carry burden of proof and Death Note is defined as such:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com...

I would also like to add that while I am allowing my opponent to choose their side I would like to argue for the side of L/M/N.

I thank my opponent for accepting and I look forward to a good debate.
Sorrow

Con

As you have stated before, there is no time for semantics in this argument. With that being mentioned, in my opinion, Light was the true winner.
Debate Round No. 1
Korashk

Pro

I thank Sorrow for accepting the debate and hope that it is a good one.

I will attempt to affirm the resolution that in the Death Note anime it was the team of L [1], Near (N) [2], and Mello (M) [3] that better accomplished their goals.

Contention 1
N, with the help of L's notes and M beat Light in their battle of wits [4].

Through meticulous planning and through inadvertent aid by Mello is able to objectively prove that Light Yagami is Kira to all of the members of their respective police task forces. He does this through Teru Mikami by knowing that Teru would attempt to use the fake Death Note to kill everyone but Light, whom he believed to be God. When no one dies N takes Teru's notebook and reads the names that are written; Light's was the only one not there. Light's team promptly turn on him and he is shot while attempting to write a name on his slip of the Death Note, escapes the warehouse, and dies of a heart attack caused by Ryuk. These events after N's reveal of the names suggests that Light no longer cares that the authorities know that he is Kira. Since the authorities have this knowledge they would have been obligated to pursue him until his demise or capture. Therefore the team of L/N/M were the cause of Light's demise.

Contention 2
N kept Light from accomplishing his goal of creating a perfect world.

Light's goal from the beginning was to create a world that is devoid of all evil [5]. This did not happen because as the series progressed Light began to commit acts that were truly evil. The first example of this was when he used the Death Note to kill Raye Penber [6] to avoid getting caught. Light had no reasons to kill Raye that were not selfish in nature as Raye was in fact working to preserve the very justice that Light claimed to stand for.
Another way this goal did not come to a warped sense of fruition is because N exposed Light as Kira and he was killed shortly after.

Contention 3
At the end of the anime Light broke.

Throughout the whole entire anime the grouping of Light/L/N/M were calm, cool, and collected. That is until the very last episode. After N exposes Light he reverts from a man who never loses his cool and bases his actions on logic to what amounts to a hysterical lunatic trying desperately to hang on to something that he knows is lost. This was an unfortunate turn for the series as a whole.
This is not the case when you look at L/N/M. These three always remained rational beings even when faced with hardships in their investigations.

I look forward to my opponent's rebuttals and hope we both provide well thought-out defenses.

[1] http://tinyurl.com...
[2] http://tinyurl.com...
[3] http://tinyurl.com...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://deathnote.wikia.com...
[6] http://deathnote.wikia.com...
Sorrow

Con

Thank you too for providing the opportunity in ensuing what will be (hopefully) an entertaining debate. Forgive me for the late response, had tons of Wiki-ing to do so I wouldn't end up looking like an idiot.

With Pro having stated his resolutions that L's team had accomplished their goals better, I will try to justify that Light and his team had better accomplished their goals, while trying to refute Pro's arguments.

--
Counter-argument for contention 1
---
"N, with the help of L's notes and M beat Light in their battle of wits "

It most certainly is true that Near was the victor, but at what price? The death of L and M. Given the fact that N received tremendous amounts of help from his predecessor, I believe that Light would have won the battle of wits ultimately, with help or without from his subordinates.

Light was only beaten due to his team's foolish mistakes. Whilst L's team was primarily composed of consistent and determined intellectuals, Light's team was merely comprised of overzealous and extravagant devotees to Light, devotees that often thought nothing of obstructing L's team but abiding by Light's own judgment. Therefore, one can assume that when placed with individual comparisons, L's team was much more suitable of their mission to interfere with Light's extreme measures, than Light's team's mission which was to accomplish justice, by ridding the world of evil, a much harder task given the scale of it. Also, coupled with the fact that Light's team later on held two missions, which was to rid the world of evil, and constantly try to thwart L's team of stopping them from achieving mission #1, mission #1 eventually became obsolete and only then thereafter did a battle of wits take place. Therefore, while Light was eventually beaten, he suffered numerous setbacks and disadvantages from the start till end.

Having said all of that, Light would most certainly have won in a battle of wits, had it not been for several careless mistakes on his team's behalf, specifically Takada and Mikami. Now, moving on to Light and his team's ambitions.

---
Counterargument for contention #2
---

Light was a character shown to possess exceptional intelligence, yet his judgment was also fundamentally one-sided. Where there existed goodness, only pure evil was left in its place. Therefore, his goal was to rid the world of all evil, which would be a perfect world as mentioned by Light himself. It was implied from the beginning that the Death Note would be his tool in helping him (yet it did not say at what cost, specifically, which foreshadows Light's own death to the viewer). Light was a victim in many ways, of the Death Note from the moment he picked it up. It would lead to his success, and his downfall. In spite of this all, Light was never intended to win, as hinted on several occasions during the plot.

Ray Penber's death was something that could have been avoided had Ray simply listened to his wife. His wife was a smart person too, solving a highly-publicized case in the past, and had a general theory of Kira's identity and purpose. If Penber had not been so caught up with solving the case of Kira, he would have realized the trickery behind Kira, as Penber was a detective himself, his job was to rid the world of evil. Finding good in two contrasting forces with their own methods of eradicating evil, is a hard thing to imagine. You have Penber, trying to stop Kira. Then you have Kira, aka Light, trying to stop Penber (from discovering his identity). Where does the evil surmount from one good intent leading to a less fortunate event? With that having been said, however, I must agree that Penber did not deserve to be killed the way he was, and it was a mistake of Light for doing so, which instantly alerted others of his presence, and later on his death.

---
Counterargument for contention 3
---

While it is true that Light "broke down" in the last stages of his life, the two teams' goals were to simply find a way to achieve their goals, no matter the end-result or how it would happen. Therefore, one's sanity and emotions should have a weak place as argument over who better accomplished their goals.

CONTENTION #1 (I will try to keep these short, as I have already covered much above):

Light himself did not view him, or others, as evil. He saw his opponents as nothing more than obstructions of his impending goal of a utopia free from villains. With the intelligence that he had, his ego developed which eventually clouded his judgment. But, if you think about it, if you had the ability to destroy any and every villainous soul to walk this world, would you do it? If we were to place ourselves in Light's shoes, do you think that these murderous sprees would not be justified?

And I would still say that Light achieved his goal better. He wanted to eradicate the world of evil. After all the ominous events that have taken place, the audience generally begins to think of Light as being evil. When Light died, by Death Note, symbolic of the very promise he took with Ryuk in the beginning, we can think of this as evil having been eradicated. Therefore, ironically enough, Light's goal was accomplished, in a sense.

CONTENTION #2:

All notable characters in Death Note possess their own unique "evils." Specifically Mello and Near. Mello's goal initially was to try and race Near and claim L's rightful successor. These two viewed their tasks as nothing more than games, with not much thought being placed to who would be doing the slaughtering, as both had. Near was also close to using a Death Note, which would have made him the evil he sought to bring down (or I think he did, correct me if I'm wrong, not entirely sure.)

CONTENTION #3:

L intended to stop Light from his work, which was murdering criminals. Granted, this is a good enough reason, as Light was later proven not to be capable of sustaining such power as being a "God". But, all context being ignored, that would mean L would be stopping good, and allowing evil to continue, as Light was the main perp. of all the criminal's deaths. Therefore, I request some clarification as to what Pro thinks L and his team's goals were.

Whew. That took a while. I think I made some factual mistakes here and there; if so, feel free to mercilessly capitalize. Again, much thanks for this debate.
Debate Round No. 2
Korashk

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response. Also, words in all caps are like that in lieu of the fact that I do not know to bold words in arguments. I actually do not even know if it is possible.

~~~~~~
Defense
~~~~~~

///It most certainly is true that Near was the victor, but at what price? The death of L and M. Given the fact that N received tremendous amounts of help from his predecessor, I believe that Light would have won the battle of wits ultimately, with help or without from his subordinates.///

That is the point. My argument is not that N won, or that L won, it is that as a team L/M/N beat Light. The deaths of N's teammates, while unfortunate, was necessary in the overall plan to expose Kira. L's death triggered the events that led to M and N being assigned to the case [4], and M's death served to expose Teru Mikami [7] as the pawn of Light which allowed Near to successfully manipulate him.
~

///Light was only beaten due to his team's foolish mistakes...[and the rest of this paragraph.]///

I contend that Light's team's faults were in fact his own fault. He handpicked them and gave them orders. His team either followed his orders without question or acted independently when there were no orders to follow. Their mistakes could have been avoided had Light gave them more orders, or made his orders more explicit. This would not have been Light's fault if he had not picked this team, but since he did the blame rests on him.
~

///Ray Penber's death was something that could have been avoided had Ray simply listened to his wife...///

To me you make it sound like Ray Penber had it coming when he died. This was not so. Raye Penber was an agent of the American FBI sent to Japan to aid in the capture of Kira. As you know because you have seen the show Kira is the most prolific serial killer in their universe. He has personally killed hundreds, I would even say thousands, of people. Raye's job was to catch this man. The real significance of this action was that Raye Penber was an INNOCENT. The only reason that he died was because of Light's selfishness.
~

///While it is true that Light "broke down" in the last stages of his life, the two teams' goals were to simply find a way to achieve their goals, no matter the end-result or how it would happen. Therefore, one's sanity and emotions should have a weak place as argument over who better accomplished their goals.///

You are correct, one's mental state at the conclusion really had no bearing on how their goals were fulfilled. I will drop this argument.
~

~~~~~~~
Rebuttals
~~~~~~~

///...if you think about it, if you had the ability to destroy any and every villainous soul to walk this world, would you do it? If we were to place ourselves in Light's shoes, do you think that these murderous sprees would not be justified?///

I will answer this question. If I had this power I would not destroy every villainous soul. Light's murder sprees were in fact not justified. In the beginning he only killed criminals that were ALREADY in prison. They were being punished. I would also say that who is he to judge whether or not someone is evil. Towards the end people were at risk of being killed if they committed any crime, literally any.
~

///When Light died, by Death Note, symbolic of the very promise he took with Ryuk in the beginning, we can think of this as evil having been eradicated. Therefore, ironically enough, Light's goal was accomplished, in a sense.///

This would have been the case had Light been the only true evil left in the world. At the time of his death he was not. There was still crime. One could speculate that once people stopped randomly dying that crime would return to it's previous levels.
~

///All notable characters in Death Note possess their own unique "evils." Specifically Mello and Near. Mello's goal initially was to try and race Near and claim L's rightful successor. These two viewed their tasks as nothing more than games, with not much thought being placed to who would be doing the slaughtering, as both had. Near was also close to using a Death Note, which would have made him the evil he sought to bring down (or I think he did, correct me if I'm wrong, not entirely sure.)///

Just as you say that Light's mental state does not affect the achievement of his goals, I propose that simply because the characters have evils and motivation to complete those goals does not mean that they did not accomplish them. Also I can find no evidence to support the claim that Near used the Death Note.
~

///L intended to stop Light from his work, which was murdering criminals. Granted, this is a good enough reason, as Light was later proven not to be capable of sustaining such power as being a "God". But, all context being ignored, that would mean L would be stopping good, and allowing evil to continue, as Light was the main perp. of all the criminal's deaths. Therefore, I request some clarification as to what Pro thinks L and his team's goals were.///

Indiscriminate murder of those convicted of crimes does not equate good. False imprisonment is something that happens to many people and not all crimes deserve death as a punishment. I will also say again that many of the people killed by Light were already serving time in PRISON for their crimes.

My opponent also asks what I consider to be L/M/N's goals were, they were to bring Kira to justice at best or at least stop him.
~

I look forward to my opponent's response.

[7] http://deathnote.wikia.com...
Sorrow

Con

I concede, good debate. Came into this debate unprepared assuming I could win easily, sadly enough.

Vote for PRO. I am curious, however, as to which arguments you would have used/extended upon if I had chosen L/M/N?
Debate Round No. 3
Korashk

Pro

I likely would have argued that L/M/N's goal was to bring Kira to justice and since Ryuk made this impossible, therefore the team did not accomplosh their goal at all, you likely would have argued that the team's goal was to merely stop Kira and this point would be decided by voter interpretation. I would also have brought up the point that since Kira came into existance there were no major world conflicts and that the crime rate had dropped by over 70%. I might have also used some arguments the last guy I had this debate with used. I don't really remember what they were.

Thanks for the debate, and I ask that you don't just let the last round forfeit, but instead post somethig so that the debate can get into the voting period.
Sorrow

Con

ahh i c dam i screwed up pretty bad

GG vote PRO
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
It's kinda weird (and annoying) that the forums have italics, bolding and underlining options when debates, the actual purpose of this site, have none of those options.
Posted by Sorrow 6 years ago
Sorrow
death note was indeed a confusing anime/manga. L lost in the beginning, then won at the end due to his team.

Light won with the help of his team in the beginning, then lost at the end. 1-1 IMO, the score has yet to be settled. the producers never intended for Light to win, you could see where the story would lead as soon as he discovered the Death Note.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Light/Kira = Dies before his natural death
L = Dies but fufils his goals with his dying message.

Ha ha ha ha ha

All hail Brittiania!
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Anime's conclusion = L

"working together we surpassed L and with hard evidence beat Kira at his own game."
-Nate River
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
*raises fists*

Death Note was a fairly mediocre anime/manga in my opinion.
Posted by Sorrow 6 years ago
Sorrow
haha lol thanks i must say the same to you.

well, the time is late. off to sleep, good night. looking forward to continuing in the morning =P
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
///Forgive me for the late response, had tons of Wiki-ing to do so I wouldn't end up looking like an idiot.///

Heh, you by no means had a late response. I posted my round 2 argument an hour of two ago and you already have a full rebuttal and arguments. I'll be honest and say that I wasn't expecting your next post until at least Monday.
Posted by Sorrow 6 years ago
Sorrow
I must say, however, that I have not watched Death Note in a long, long time since. I have a lot of catching up to do...here's to the winner of this debate!
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Switchlapse 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by cult-logic 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Rockylightning 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by laurenelainee 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Korashk 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Sorrow 6 years ago
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