Did Yeshua (Jesus) do away with the Law? Should we keep the Law?
Debate Rounds (5)
Go ahead and start your argument first round.
I'll start with the Sermon on the mount:
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished" (Mt. 5:17-18).
We can clearly see that Christ here didn't suggest that the nature of the law would be perpetual if it were to end. He didn't come to the earth to act as the law's adversary or come against it but He loved it and obeyed it. Because Jesus fulfilled the law's prophecies regarding Himself (Luke 24:44), He fulfilled the demands of the law which called for perfect obedience (otherwise it would impose a curse as we can see in Galatians 3:10-13). But if the Mosaic law has the same relationship to people today, as it did before Christ came then how could it be fulfilled, however if it was then it would not bind us today.
My point being, if this law was not fulfilled by Christ then it would be an 'obligatory compelling system'.
Jesus said that not one "jot or tittle" would pass away until all is fulfilled, and I agree with it - nothing of the law was to fail until it had reached its purpose!
In regards to 5:17, Christ is always talking in parables and using metaphors before His crucifixion, so why take this literally and not the others? He was not affirming that the law would last until 'heaven and earth' pass away but that it would be 'easier' for the universe to pass away than for the law of God not to fulfill it's mission (which we can CLEARLY see in context in Luke 16:17 - put one and two together and there you go!).
Paul argues that if a man receives one portion of the law (being bound for justification), he must receive the debts for all of it (Galatians 5:3). "All of the law" includes the bloody sacrifices, the annual treks to Jerusalem, the purification rituals and so on (which I realise are imperfect with it's implications but if you're going to side with the law being changed then what is stopping you from siding with everything else?).
In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" was "abolished " by the death of Jesus on the cross (Ephesians 2:14-16):
"14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."
In Greek, the word for "abolished" is "katargeo", literally meaning reducing something to a state of inactivity. He uses this term in Romans 7:2-6, to say that like a wife is "discharged" from the law her husband has when he dies, just like through Christ's death, men were "discharged" from the obligations of the Mosaic law - "you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God".
The law he is talking about here is the law of Moses, he even puts reference to the ten commandments a little later on in 7:7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." ".
I will throw this one here too, Galatians 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." The law were training wheels for us, and now we understand what is moral we can properly ride the bike with what is in our hearts (small analogy) through faith.
This has relation with the previous verse, please explain to me Romans 13:9-10.
The laws and commandments are being said, yet instead of continuing on with the rest it says "and if there is ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love our neighbor as yourself."
If the others were required of us why does he not say them, yet he did all the others?
When you say you follow all other laws, are you also circumcised? It is quite clear in the New Testament that it is not the physical attributes of circumcision but the inwardly circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:29) "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God."". Yet if you are following the rest of all these laws in the OT given through Moses, why not this one (making an assumption here that you aren't - correct me if I'm wrong)?
I will finish this statement with this, read carefully, it would be nice for your view on this:
"But our High Priest [Jesus Christ] has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises. If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. But God himself found fault with the old one when he said: "The day will come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah"" (Heb. 8:6-8).
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
2 Peter 3:15-16
Unlearned in what? The Law and the prophets of course. And yet Christians today read Paul's writings with no knowledge of the Law and prophets, and twist what Paul is saying. Peter specifically says that Paul is hard to understand.
"Because Jesus fulfilled the law's prophecies regarding Himself (Luke 24:44), He fulfilled the demands of the law which called for perfect obedience (otherwise it would impose a curse"
This is not a scriptural interpretation of Yeshua's words. There is nothing that says that Yeshua fulfilled the demands of the Torah.
"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
The curse of the Law is trying to be JUSTIFIED by the works thereof, as clarified in verse 11.
You will find, that in every place where Paul is appearing to speak against the Law, he is only speaking of the law as a means of justification. But then he clarifies and says, " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
"But if the Mosaic law has the same relationship to people today, as it did before Christ came then how could it be fulfilled, however if it was then it would not bind us today."
This also is an non scriptural interpretation. No the Mosaic Law does not have the same relationship to people today; Paul makes this clear. Please give me the scripture that says the Law does not bind us today in the sense do keeping what is written therein.
"Jesus said that not one "jot or tittle" would pass away until all is fulfilled, and I agree with it - nothing of the law was to fail until it had reached its purpose!"
Let me emphasize "until ALL be fulfilled." ALL has not been fulfilled, read the book of Revelation. Messiah has yet to fulfill ALL the prophecies concerning him reigning as King.
Matthew 5:17 is NOT a parable. Look and see, never did Yeshua ever speak a parable and not clarify that is was a parable. But if you are going to pick and choose what is parable and what is not according to your own theology, how do you even know that Yeshua really died on the tree? How do you know that he really rose from the grave? perhaps the entire gospel is a parable.
"He was not affirming that the law would last until 'heaven and earth' pass away"
Yes he was! In fact, that's exactly what he said. He was speaking the Aramaic idiomatic language. To say that it is easier is the same as saying it wont happen before thus and thus. You are reading a gospel and epistles that were written by men from the middle east who had a very different culture than that of the Western culture.
"Paul argues that if a man receives one portion of the law (being bound for justification)"
You say it all right here yourself. FOR JUSTIFICATION. We see clearly that the Law is not the means of justification. But this does not mean that we do not keep the Law. (Romans 3:31) For it is only by the Law that we know what sin is. The Law is not sin itself, but "Sin is the transgression of the Law." 1 John 3:4 So if you transgress any of the Law, you are a sinner. Yeshua did not come to give us the "freedom" to sin. We MUST keep the Law. Please show me ONE scripture that specifically says we do not have to KEEP the Law.
The Temple sacrifices have not been abolished, they have simply been changed from imperfect to perfect. We still live by the on perfect sacrifice that now sits in the Temple in the heavens.
Only parts of the law that are specified to have changed with explanation have changed. Anything else is pulling out of a hat. (And English idiom.)
This passage is speaking specifically of " law with its commands and regulations" concerning the Jewish Talmud that forbids Gentiles to fellowship with Jew. Search the context. You will not be able to find such an ordinance in the Law of Moses.
"The Law was our tutor" I will explain using Paul's words: Romans 7:
" 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
The law, being good and Holy, showed us where we were at fault with God, thus LEADING us to the knowledge that we need a savior. This is what Paul is saying concerning a "tutor."
Riding the bike:
With or without the training wheels, you are still riding UPRIGHT. But you are saying that now that we are not under the guidance of the training wheels (Law of Moses), we are not free to fall over. (No longer ride the way the training wheels led us to ride. (upright). This is obviously dumb.
Paul is simply restating what Yeshua said.
" 37 Yeshua said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
This is not saying that we do not have to keep the other commandments in the slightest. This is saying that all the commandments fit into these two categories in some way.
"If the others were required of us why does he not say them, yet he did all the others?"
Nowhere does it ever say that the only commandments required to keep are the ones that are restated in the "New Testament." All the Laws were already given, there was no need to restate these laws. Some of the Laws were referred to because of the subject topic. He never said, "ok, this is the list of all the laws in the Old Testament that you still need to keep."
When I was eight days old my father did not circumcise me. But if it were my choice, I would have been circumcised. Circumcision was not of the Law of Moses. It was the sign of the covenant of faith made with Abraham concerning his seed. My father is circumcised, but I am unsure why he didn't circumcise me. I plan on getting that figured out. Circumcision is NOT for justification, it is a sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham, which covenant he will not forget. His seed shall be as numerous as the sand of the sea and as the stars in the heavens.
"The old laws" Reading the context, he is speaking of the Levitical Law of temple service. We do not live according to these "imperfect" laws, which were only a shadow of perfect things to come. That is, Yeshua. He is our priest serving in the temple in the heavens. The covenant of the Old Testament was this, " Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD." Leviticus 18:5
We are not given life by the keeping of the Laws, because we have all failed. The New covenant is that we would live by his blood that he shed. But The Law itself is the definition of God's holiness. His Holiness can not change. What was sin then, is still sin now.
I would like to ask where the concept of a messiah came from? The "Old Testament" right?
Well the Old testament writes a messiah that will uphold and teach the LAW properly in the last days when he comes to rule as king. But according to your "new testament," the LAW has been "done away with. In the Torah and the Prophets, scripture says that Messiah will be a teacher of the LAW, not do away with it.
Isaiah 2:2-3; "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of YHVH's house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: "Come ye, and ley us go up to the mountain of YHVH, to the house of the Elohim of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the LAW, and the word of YHVH from Jerusalem."
Deuteronomy 13:1-4; "All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. If there arise in the midst of the a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for YHVH your Elohim putteth you to the proof, to know whether ye do love YHVH you Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul."
Christ is the Torah, why would be still be following the shadow when we now have the real thing inside us? Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4).
Please show me verses where it actually shows Jesus teaching Torah and commanding gentiles to obey it. He doesn't tell the gentiles to become Jews, and even later on He asks gentiles to join the church.
(Acts 14:27) "And when they arrived and gathered the church together, they declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles."
Jesus followed the law perfectly in order to fulfill it as Messiah. The law demands perfect obedience, are you saying Jesus has sinned? "John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." What is finished if He did not obey the law perfectly?
Galatians 2? I think you're referring to Galatians 3:10.
Yes, here he is talking about the curse of the law.
But I love how you jumped here to a different book with a different context here. The context has nothing to do with believers continuing on in the law but everything to do with using the law to lead people towards Christ, it shows that the whole world is unrighteous under God's law, and that law reveals the knowledge of sin in order for people to turn to Christ in faith. We are released from the law (Gal 3:23) through faith but that doesn't mean we do away with it, since it reveals to the lost that they are not righteous (when it comes to the lost we establish it).
Romans 3: 19-20 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.""
But God found fault with the people and said:
"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, "Know the Lord,"
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
This is my mistake, it seems I have mixed some verses up.
I agree, Matthew 5:17 is not a parable, we are in harmony here. I don't believe the law has been abolished but like Christ says, fulfilled. The law is still ongoing but through Christ He has renewed us and written the law on our hearts so we can see right from wrong (Romans 2:15 "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them").
Ephesians 2:15 "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances ... thereby putting to death the enmity"
How does this not support my argument? Paul is speaking about how the Gentiles who were called the uncircumcision in verse 11, were separated from Christ in 12, but have now been brought to God by the blood of Christ in verse 13. Jesus removed the requirement of having to follow the Law in order to please God, established justification by faith, and thereby united both Jew and Gentile into one group in Christ.
Perhaps I did not made myself clear enough, as I have said before, I agree. The Old Testament laws are our training wheels, but seeing through them we can see our saviour Christ. The law was Christ's shadow, now we follow Him with His new covenant (as seen in Heb 8).
On these two commandments hang ... That is, these comprehend the substance of what Moses in the law and what the prophets have spoken.
Let's look at another version, BBE "On these two rules all the law and the prophets are based.".
"and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What is being said is, to win people over to love God and each other. This is the aim of Moses, the prophets and the apostles.
The law is the definition of God's holiness, but the differences of what we believe are whether through Christ we need to follow the Mosaic laws.
The messiah did uphold and teach the law properly, He lived it perfectly! Not done away with but the heart of the law has been written in our hearts through faith in Him, He has renewed us (which we can see in ourselves from the moment we accepted Christ).
I ask you, where does it say for gentiles becoming followers of Christ to continue on keeping the sabbath and eating only 'clean' foods? It shows the early Christians going there, but that is because they are preaching to the Jews, and that is where the Jews are located!
Thanks so far, this is my first debate here and I am open to anything my mind is not be aware of. I'm learning so much already and appreciate everything you have to say :)
Peter does not specify "how." He just says, "some things."
I would say this includes where people think Paul is saying that the Torah is not to be kept, even though that theology spits in the face of the Torah and Prophets.
Paul does not call the entire Torah a shadow, he calls the temple and the services thereof a shadow. Concerning the rest of the Torah, he says we establish it (Roman's 3:21). He also says that we ought not to sin. John clarifies sin as "transgression of the Torah."
"Please show me verses where it actually shows Jesus teaching Torah and commanding gentiles to obey it."
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Yeshua didn't speak to ANY gentiles except for a few choice ones.
The scriptures that I posted where the Torah and Prophets say that Messiah will preach Torah were not fulfilled by Yeshua at his first coming. The scriptures are to show that when he returns, he will preach Torah to all nations. Why would he preach something that has been "done away with?"
On top of this, if you look in Zechariah 14:16-19, It also says that when he returns, we will keep the Feast of tabernacles.
And in Isaiah 66:23, We are all keeping Sabbath when he returns.
You do not become a Jew just because you keep ALL the commandments, you become a child of the Most High. The Torah is not the Law of the Jews, the Torah is the Law of God. Paul makes it clear that any gentile that believes in the Jewish Yeshua as their Messiah and Savior is "grafted in" to the house of ISRAEL. So than you are no longer a part of the gentile nations, but are a part of ISRAEL. This is what makes you a part of Israel, not keeping the Torah. We keep the Torah, not for justification, but because we Love him. For it is written, "It you love me, keep my commandments."
"The law demands perfect obedience"
The Law also demands Messiah to uphold Torah FOREVER.
I don't know why you ask if I think Yeshua sinned... Of course not.
And about the "What is finished?" I am unsure what is the argument concerning whether or not to keep the Torah concerning this verse. I honestly don't know exactly what he was saying was finished; he doesn't specify.
I could have sworn I wrote Galations 3:10
When he says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (verse 24) he then explains what "of the works of the Law" mean in the next verse 11,
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
So then it is the JUSTIFICATION by the works of the Torah that Paul is saying is nullified, but not the keeping of it.
Trying to be justified by the Torah is the Epitome of the curse of the Law. This is exactly what Paul is preaching throughout all of his epistles.
"it shows that the whole world is unrighteous under God's law, and that law reveals the knowledge of sin in order for people to turn to Christ in faith. We are released from the law"
Are you saying that transgression of the law is only sin until you accept yeshua, and then somehow the holiness of God changes for you and transgression of the Law is no longer sin? This is obviously stupid. We use the Law to show that we are evil and need a savior. The savior saves us from the penalty due to use because we have transgressed the Law. This Is the Grace of God that does this. "1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1-2
Transgression of the Law is sin both before and after you accept Yeshua. The difference is, "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the father, Yeshua the anointed one, the righteous." 1 John 2:1
"Romans 3: 19-20 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.""
The text is clear. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be JUSTIFIED in His sight" I will say again, We keep the Torah, not for JUSTIFICATION, but because we Love him. For it is written, "It you love me, keep my commandments."
The New Covenant:
Paul is specifically talking about the COVENANT being new. not the Law itself. The Law itself is not the covenant, the covenant was this: " Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM: I am the LORD."
The Old Covenant was justification by the works of the Law, the New Covenant is justification by faith. This has nothing to do with not keeping the commands of the Torah. The Torah is God's law, and the transgression thereof is sin.
"He has renewed us and written the law on our hearts"
you have said it yourself, the law is suppose to be written on our hearts. If the law is written on you heart, how much more should you keep it as apposed to when it was only written on stone. If you do not keep the Law, then the law is NOT on your heart. The Law was on the apostles' hearts and they kept they law. They were keeping the feast of Pentecost (shavu'ot) according to the law. Years after Yeshua left, Peter still was eating according to the clean laws, as we see when Peter had the vision on the rooftop. He says, "Not so Lord, for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth." Acts 10
Notice that after God saying telling Peter three times to kill and eat, Peter does not eat. The blanket is taken back up and he never takes a bite. God didn't say he was making unclean meats clean. Peter explains what God was telling him in verse 28, "God has showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." So then it is not the unclean meats which are commanded in the Law not to eat that God was making clean, but rather the gentiles that were sent to him.
"Jesus removed the requirement of having to follow the Law in order to please God"
Notice that all of your explanation before you said this was backed up by scripture, and than you say this and give no scripture. I disagree. Yeshua did NOT remove the requirement to follow Torah, but for righteousness only. For our righteousness is not of the Law But of Yeshua.
"established justification by faith"
Show me your faith without works, I will show you my faith BY my works.
Now where in scripture is the Torah called, "the old testament laws." The Old covenant is not the laws, it is the justification in keeping them.
"Let's look at another version"
I don't care about different versions. I take it back to its original language, which is Aramaic.
"The law is the definition of God's holiness, but the differences of what we believe are whether through Christ we need to follow the Mosaic laws."
So then by you own words, if you do not keep the Law, you are not walking according to God's holiness. But It is written, "ye shall be holy, as I am holy."
"I ask you, where does it say for gentiles becoming followers of Christ to continue on keeping the sabbath and eating only 'clean' foods?"
Where does it say to stop?? The Sabbath is going to be kept in the thousand year reign.
Yeshua said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." And what Commandments is he speaking of. The disciples knew that Yeshua was Messiah, the son of the living God. They knew that Yeshua's commandments were synonymous with God's commandments that he gave at Mount. Sinai. For Yeshua was God in the flesh.
1 In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God.
14 And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
The word of God is everything that comes out of the mouth of God including all of his laws that he gave at Sinai. If you do away with these laws and refuse to keep them, then you do away with Yeshua and refuse to follow him, because he is the living law of God given at Sinai.
These laws are the guidelines of his holiness. Only by walking inside of these guidelines can you live a holy life through the grace that he has offered as power to be able to keep the law. This is what grace is. The ability given by God to keep his laws. If you deny the power to keep the laws to walk in holiness, you deny grace.
But I don't believe we are to follow all the extra ceremonial laws, traditions and sacrifices (I know we both agree on about the sacrifices) that the Jews strictly followed.
Mark 7:19 "because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)"
Matthew 15:11 "What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."
These show that it does not matter what food we eat, what do you have to say about that? This is not a dream of unclean people (Gentiles) like Peter's dream, but this is about food and it reads it out pretty clearly.
If we are no longer in custody of the law, we are not under the law, so we don't have obligation to follow the law. We don't follow the shadow, but the fulfilment of it - Christ. We fulfil the intent of the law through following CHrist - the new law of the spirit that we are under. Colossians 2, Galatians 5 (especially verse 18), Romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15 (2:15 abolishing in His flesh the enmity. Through His death, Christ abolished OT ceremonial laws, feasts, and sacrifices which uniquely separated Jews from Gentiles. God"s moral law (as summarised in the Ten Commandments and written on the hearts of all men, (Romans 2:15) was not abolished but subsumed in the New Covenant, however, because it reflects His own holy nature (Matthew 5:17"19).
Matt 5 :17 - Jesus is talking of the Old Testament - He is claiming the OT will not be done away with - I don't think He is saying we will always have to observe OT law. Yet we will always have it, as part of God's revelation to us, His story of salvation to the world, and its foundation for understanding Christ and our need for him.
We must bear in mind that "fulfil" does not mean the same as "keep"; Jesus is speaking of more than obedience to regulations.
By giving the final revelation of God"s will to which the Old Testament pointed toward, and which now transcends it (Romans. 10:4, "Christ is the end of the law": he both completes and transcends it). Jesus is bringing that to which the Old Testament looked forward; his teaching will transcend the Old Testament revelation, but, far from abolishing it, is itself its intended culmination.
Now regarding the Sabbath, Christ is our Sabbath.
In Hebrews 4 it says that Jesus is our Sabbath rest (9-10 "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."
Let me ask you, what is the purpose of the Sabbath? In the New Testament, Jesus declared Himself "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). He equated Himself up with God the Father, becoming God in human form. He also said in Mark 2:27, "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". Hebrews 3 and 4 is all about Christ becoming our Sabbath rest, showing that our relationship with Him redeems us from the works of the law and allows a person to rest in the work of Christ to forgive sin. Hence, those who believe in Jesus will spend eternity in a "Sabbath rest" with Him (Hebrews 4:9).
If we were meant to obey the sabbath by binding it to a single day (which most people don't even understand which day is the real last day of the week) then why did Christ break it?
"Matthew 12:1-14: "At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!"
You can claim that He did not really break it, but according to Deuteronomy 17:8-13:
"and thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:"
According to Deuteronomy, interpreting the Torah is to be taken to the priests and the judges, where their ruling is binding. The punishment of not following their ruling, is of death. Although they are hypocrites, Jesus knows they had the authority to interpret and enforce the written Torah.
If Christ is not our Sabbath, what is your response to this?
God put the Sabbath day rest as a foreshadowing of our complete rest in Christ. The Sabbath was blessed, sanctified and it was made holy - this is the symbol of Christ as our Sabbath rest. God sanctified Christ, just as He sanctified the Sabbath day and sent Him into the world (John 10:36). We can now cease from our spiritual labors and rest in Him, not just one day a week, but always.
Now I ask you what the Torah is about? The word itself derives from the meaning of "instruction", but instruction always points to a goal or an ending. Just like reading a map, you only read it to be led somewhere. Isn't the goal of Torah to be reconciled to God in a personal relationship, in loving communion? It is a function of covenant, therefore it has changed through God's different covenants . Noah and Abraham had their covenant with God, and Moses even offered sacrifices to Him before it was given on Sinai. They all observed instruction in the sense that they related to God through covenant.
Are be bound to keep the terms of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai? I like to point to Jesus for this, He taught us about the new covenant of God - not the ritual obligations and elder traditions of observing Torah but that Torah is observed by our inward side to His death and resurrection for us. This very thing is demonstrated by loving God with everything we have (heart, mind, soul, strength) and by loving our neighbor as ourself, "On these two commandments," He said, "hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:35-40).
The old is written on tablets, however the new is written on the heart:
No murder is to no anger
No adultery to no lust
No false witness to simple honesty
Eye for eye to forgiveness
Love friends; hate enemies is to love all
Outer righteousness to inner righteousness
Planned public prayer to "secret" prayer
Outward boasting of religion to secret fasting
Outwardness to inwardness
I believe this is what Jesus came to teach, He did not come to abolish it but fulfill, meaning giving true light to what the Torah is for. This is also just like the Jewish idiom, whoever interprets the scriptures wrongly he is destroying it. They are not getting the MEANING of the instruction.
Who the heck do you think gave Moses the rest of the commandments!? The Cookie Monster!??
They are ALL God's DIRECT laws!
"Mark 7:19 "because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)""
Your mistake here. Never would a Jew EVER consider an unclean animal as food. Look at the context. He is talking about the washing of hands before eating real, clean FOOD. To say he is making unclean animals clean, you are adding to both the context and his word. No where does it mention unclean animals.
"If we are no longer in custody of the law, we are not under the law, so we don't have obligation to follow the law."
Show me this in scripture please.
"We don't follow the shadow, but the fulfilment of it"
The only thing called a shadow was the sacrificial system.
"abolished OT ceremonial laws"
Incorrect. It says he abolished "the law of commandments in ordinance" concerning gentiles not fellowshiping with Jews. Search the Law of Moses and you will not find this commandment. This commandment was given in the Talmud of The Jews which was NOT given by God. THIS is the law the Messiah abolished.
In Galatians, Paul is SPECIFICALLY addressing the fact that the Galatians decided that they wanted to turn to the Law for JUSTIFICATION instead of Yeshua. Search the context and you will find me correct. This is that which I spoke of earlier, that in places where Christians thing Paul is saying not to keep the Law, he is actually speaking specifically of being JUSTIFIED by the Law.
I also want to let you know that posting a specific chapter doesn't work. You need to give me the specific verse that you think supports your argument because I know these scriptures and support them with all my heart. I don't know which ones you thing are saying we don't have to keep the Law.
"which uniquely separated Jews from Gentiles"
God has called us to be separate from the unbelievers. This is not the "dividing was of partition" that Paul is speaking of. Paul is speaking of the literal dividing wall that the Jews set up in the synagogues to separate them from the gentiles that wanted to learn the Torah and cling to the God of Abraham. This Wall was an ordinance made by the Talmud, and contradicted the Law of Moses that allows Gentiles to be grafted in to Israel and become a part of it.
"We must bear in mind that "fulfil" does not mean the same as "keep"
You do not understand what the word fulfill means here because you have a western Grecko/Roman mindset. These men in the Bible have a Middle Eastern mindset which is completely different. They have a completely different culture than you do. The Hebrew word for "fulfill" is "mala." This literally means to fill something up. Just like God said that the whole earth is "mala" full of his glory. In the Hebrew culture, the Jews have a specific concept that westerners don't understand. When a Rabbi is preaching his interpretation of the Torah, and the other Rabbis think he is totally wrong, they say that he is destroying the Torah. But when a Rabbi preaches a good interpretation of the Law and Prophets, the rabbis will say that he has "mala" fulfilled the Torah. This is what Yeshua is referring to as he is a Rabbi preaching the Torah on the mount. He said he was there to give the proper and good interpretation of the Torah. He is obviously not going to be preaching something that nobody will have to pay any head to soon after when he dies. The Torah was something to keep forever according to the word of God that can not be broken, and Yeshua was here to show us the correct meaning of the Torah.
"Christ is the end of the law"
Incorrect translation of the original language of the "New Testament." The word that was translated into "end" here is the word "sukka" in both Aramaic and Hebrew. This word means to anoint in the sense of covering. It is also the word used for a "tabernacle" or "booth." The correct translation of this verse according to the Aramaic reads as follows:
"sukka nid d'nemusa Mashiyakha hu leka'anuta, lekal d'mehiman."
"The covering anointing of the Torah is Messiah for the righteous, for all that believe."
Or in Proper English structure, "Messiah is the Covering anointing of the Torah for all the righteous, for all that believe."
First of all, these two verses do not say, "Christ is our Sabbath." Verse 9 says, "His Shabbat remains for the people of Elohim" according to the Aramaic text.
Verse ten doesn't mention the word "shabbat." It uses the Aramaic word "Niyakh" or the Hebrew, "Noakh" which translates into English as the name Noah. Remember when God says concerning Noah, " And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall "Noakh" us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed." Genesis 5:29
This same word that means rest, also means to comfort. Which means that it refers to a comforting type of rest. Remember when Yeshua told his disciples that he would send them the "Noakh" comforter (which was his spirit) to them. This is rest, or "Noakh" that Paul is talking about. This in no way makes the seventh day Shabbat obsolete. As God said, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."
"then why did Christ break it?"
Have you never read the laws in the old testament concerning the Shabbat? Walking through corn fields and eating the corn when you are hungry is never prohibited. He did not break the Sabbath. When the Pharisees said that he was doing something not lawful, they were speaking of their Talmud, not the Torah of God. You yourself said that Yeshua kept the Law perfectly. This includes the Shabbat.
"Lord of the Sabbath"
He is the Lord of this Sabbath and you don't want to keep it?
"Sabbath was made for man"
But I guess it wasn't made for you cause you don't even keep it.
In Hebrews 4 and 5, The word for rest is not "shabbat, " it is that word "Niyah" again, or "Noakh" in Hebrew. He is not speaking of the Seventh day Shabbat that he said would last forever. Even in Isaiah 66 during the thousand year reign you see the Shabbat being celebrated.
"Jesus knows they had the authority to interpret and enforce the written Torah."
THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY OVER YESHUA'S AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER! Yeshua's correct interpretation OVERRIDES the interpretation of the pharisees.
You yourself Said that you believe in keeping the ten commandments. Read it again; that Sabbath is one of the ten and you break it every week.
"Isn't the goal of Torah to be reconciled to God in a personal relationship, in loving communion?"
This is exactly what the Torah is. But you refuse to use the map. The map is something you use every day to lead you into deeper and deeper knowledge of Yeshua.
:Are be bound to keep the terms of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai?"
The terms of the covenant are not the Laws themselves. The terms of the covenant is that if a man keep ALL of the Laws, he will be justified. His Laws are the definition of his holiness, you said it yourself. They are not the "terms of the covenant." The new covenant is that, since we broke the Torah and therefor can not be justified thereby, he has justified us by the shed blood of Yeshua. This does not Change the fact that the Law is the definition of God's holiness. In order to walk according to his holiness, we have to walk according to his "instructions" as you intelligently and correctly translated the word "Torah." But you say that now That the living "instructions" has come, you no longer have to follow them. This is not what scripture says. This scriptures say that to break these instructions is to sin.
1 John 3:4
The only part that is "elder traditions" is the talmud and other extra biblical Jewish writings. Nothing in the Torah is "elder traditions", they are the direct commandments of The Almighty God.
"This very thing is demonstrated by loving God"
Yeshua himself said, if you love me, keep my commandments. All the Torah is his commandments, not just 9 of the 10 commandments written on the tablets (since you don't believe you have to keep the 4th of the ten commandments.)
"The old is written on tablets, however the new is written on the heart:"
NOT the "old" and the "new", but the exact same Law. If you say that God has a "new" law, you are saying that God's "definition of Holiness" changed. But we both know, GOD NEVER CHANGES!
"Eye for eye to forgiveness"
Eye for eye was not changed, only the pharisees interpretation of "eye for eye." Have you not read Yeshua's saying,
" For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:2
This is Yeshua's Good interpretation of the eye for eye commandment. He says this just minutes after he mentions the eye for eye.
Yeshua is all for forgiveness to the repentant, but he still judges every man according to his deeds.
"meaning giving true light to what the Torah is for"
But none of it matters for you because you don't keep the Torah. So none of Yeshua's teachings concerning the Torah matter for you. This actually concludes ALL of Yeshua's teachings.
You gave me no answer to John 1:1; 14
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
This word which is Yeshua is every word that came out of God's mouth including the Torah, and you don't walk accordingly.
This is not good. You should Keep God's Laws, for it is the very definition of Holiness.
I posted a specific chapter to give the whole context, but will keep that it mind, and I respect you for getting deep into the scriptures for the truth.
Actually, the idiom you gave me is what I gave you before, "When a Rabbi is preaching his interpretation of the Torah, and the other Rabbis think he is totally wrong, they say that he is destroying the Torah. But when a Rabbi preaches a good interpretation of the Law and Prophets, the rabbis will say that he has "mala" fulfilled the Torah."
I just summarised it up, not sure if you missed that or not, "This is also just like the Jewish idiom, whoever interprets the scriptures wrongly he is destroying it".
About the mis-translation part, I don't think it is like that.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
I haven't studied into Greek like I have the Hebrew but it says, "end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS", isn't this what you are saying? Correct me if I'm wrong, but end of the law in order to gain righteousness?
I never said I try to neglect the Sabbath like you directly accused, I talked about Christ being our Sabbath (as the Sabbath was sanctified so was Christ), and I never said I try to do 9/10 out of the commandments.
But just like I asked you in the comments, what do you consider as the Sabbath day rest?
My church is on a Saturday night, and I do not work on that day.
I'm interested, what counts as observing the Sabbath? Just not working? Or not working and going to a service? Does it matter whether Saturday or Sunday? Or what?
Here is one of the last confusions I have in Galatians 4:8: "8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God"or rather are known by God"how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."
He says "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."
Not you are observing them for righteousness.
Also Colossians 2:16-17:
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."
The Sabbath is a shadow of the things to come (Christ)?
Can you please explain both of these to me? Thanks.
Also would you suggest any reading for me about this subject?
"end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS"
"isn't this what you are saying?"
I am saying that Yeshua is the end of the law only for RIGHTEOUSNESS. But that is not said here. I will give you a word for word translation from the Aramaic of what this verse says. I also want to say that the word translated in English as "end" which is "sukka." also means the "target" or "aim". I will include ALL the words that "sukka" can mean in the traslation:
"SUKKA-target, tabernacle, covering, anointed one NIYD-of, for D'NEMUSAH-the Torah MASHIYAKHA- the Messiah HU-he is L'KA'ANUTAH- unto righteousness L'KAL-for all DEMAHIMAN-that believe."
"The target/covering/anointing of the Torah Mashiyakh he is for righteousness for all that believe."
In proper English:
"Messiah is the target/covering/anointing of the Torah unto righteousness for all that believe."
The proper way to keep the Shabbat is to do exactly what Torah says to do. Seize from all your labors, do no servile work, sanctify the Shabbat and keep it holy, and have a holy convocation. (holy gathering service) According to the word of God Almighty, we Do all of this on the SEVENTH DAY or Saturday. The Hebrew word for seven is "shabba" which is what the Hebrew word "shabbat" comes from. The very root of the word Shabbat says that it ought to be done on the seventh day. Anything else is an invention of man.
"when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods"
Notice that he is speaking to Gentiles that use to worship Idols and observe feast days in honor of these idols. These are the "days and months and seasons and years" that Paul is referring to. Of course he is not referring to Gods special times that he set aside for us to meat with him. Paul himself says,
"I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem"
"For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Shavu'ot (Pentecost)." (Shavu'ot is on of the feasts in the Bible)
All of the Believers of Yeshua were keeping this feast of Shavu'ot (Pentecost) exactly 50 days after Yeshua rose from the grave and 10 days after he ascended into the heavens. Even after Yeshua had come and gone, the disciples were STILL keeping the feasts. Not only that, But Yeshua Poured out his spirit on this day, confirming that it is still a day to be honored.
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."
HAHA! He is actually referring to their OBSERVANCE OF these things. "Let no man disturb you about 'your observance' of food and drink, or about distinction of feasts, and beginnings of months, and of Sabbaths."
They were believers living among heathens that didn't observe the feasts or Sabbaths or New Moons, while they did.
He is telling them not to let the heathens bother them about their special days that they were keeping.
"The Sabbath is a shadow of the things to come (Christ)?"
Yes, the Sabbath is a shadow AND a sign that he has set for his people. But you have something confused here. We have NOT been given our rest in its fullness here yet. We still struggle both physically and spiritually. The Kingdom of Elohim suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. There is spiritual warfare to be done and we still work "by the sweat of our brow." in fact, Paul specifically says,
"There remaineth therefore a Shabbat for the people of God."
"Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief".
Paul is saying that neither the eternal Shabbat in Yeshua has come (Hebrews 4:9)
and that the eternal rest of Yeshua was something that has not come and was something to be labored for.
You ask me if I have any suggestions on any readings to look into. my answer: READ ONLY THE BIBLE!
When someone is being trained to recognize a counterfeit 100 dollar bill, they do not study anything but the authentic 100 dollar bill. since they know this authentic 100 dollar bill like the back of their hand, it is very easy to recognize a counterfeit.
The same goes for The scriptures. Don't study what this person or that person says about the Bible. Just study the Bible for yourself. Like John said,
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him"
I also want you to notice how I have relied purely on scripture to back up my argument. I didn't get these arguments from a book. I have been reading the bible at least twice a day every day for the last over six years as it is my commitment to do so for the rest of my life. Prayer also goes along with this. I know the book. The Spirit speaks to me concerning this book and guides me into his truths. Not other books.
I want to commend you for your humility. This is very precious in the eyes of Yahuwah Almighty: as Isaiah prophecies in chapter 66
"1 Thus saith Yahuwah, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith Yahuwah: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
The unclean foods like pork, obviously would not have been good for them to get sick without knowledge of cooking it - but at a scientific age of knowledge do you think this also would have been corrected?
To start with, I don't eat pork or any of those foods - and most of the time I don't feel like I would want to, but every time I start to "believe" that I should be not eating them my heart literally feels a burden, I feel like my insides are heavier that won't go away until my mind slightly changes on the topic. I don't have a huge problem of following those other laws whatsoever at all, if God wants me to follow them then that's fine with me! But this feeling weighs heavily on me and I don't know why.
Do you believe that the ONLY law that was changed, was sacrifices?
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law".
Yes, after this he talks about being justified by the law, but here he does not say "circumcised for salvation", however about circumcision itself. Why is he saying whoever lets him be circumcised should obey the whole law?
And again in Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
Would you say circumcision is something we should do? And if so how would you explain these passages? If not, what is stopping other laws from being redefined for us?
1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God."
Is not circumcision a commandment of God? Why is it separated and isolated here?
In Romans 14:14 "***I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.*** 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17***For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.***"
In previous, you have responded to similar verses about "unclean" foods not being foods at all, but here he is talking about "things" - could this not refer to unclean foods and would it not make sense to the context?
And can you also explain this one to me (Gal 5:13):
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
The entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command? Sure, it covers a lot of laws but what does this have to do with unclean meat (which does in fact, do no harm to us when cooked properly in our generation, that God's people back then did not know).
I'm sure you're aware of the 613 commandments, even more so than me. But can you go here: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Look at all these commandments, and honestly tell me you try to follow each and every single one?
Many of these laws are not even able to be followed today (including sacrifices), what is stopping some of these other commandments to not be done today (like unclean foods which would create no harm to us now, unlike back then).
The time these commandments were given out, it was many many many, generations ago with different circumstances than us.
God doesn't change, but the relationship between man and Him does (as we are in a new covenant).
Well, thanks for this. Even though it turned into more of a discussion than a debate, I really appreciate it - if I have any more questions/thoughts do I have your permission to comment here (or if your message inbox ever become unlocked)? :)
I've always read my Bible, but in the past few months I asked God for my 'ultimate' hobby - I had always imagined it to be a hobby like solving puzzles and riddles (as I find interest in those things, especially with linguistics) - since then He showed me it and it was studying His word. Not just reading it, but taking notes, memorising, praying and discussing. I never get tired of it, God is good! Just thought I would share with you :)
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