The Instigator
Lookingatissues
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SecularMerlin
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Do Females have any responsibility

Do you like this debate?NoYes+5
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2017 Category: Society
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,087 times Debate No: 105415
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

Lookingatissues

Pro

There is a natural relationship between males and females and it is the natural sexual attraction of each sex to the opposite sex.
The female of the human sex is designed by nature to be attractive to the male just as the flower is designed to be attractive to Bees to attract the bees to pollinate flowers and produce other flowers.
Maturity of the human male and female advances the sexual attraction of each sex towards the opposite sex and along with this sexual development stage that's reached comes the knowledge of what parts of the human anatomy of each sex that are designed to be most attractive to the other sex and how these devices can be used to display that part of anatomy. Clothing, feminine mannerisms, and traits are most often effective in attracting the males attention.
If females didn't want and invite the special attention of the males wouldn't it stand to reason since the female of the human sex understands full well what attracts the male that they would then be more modest in what they did and what they wore.
Can women seriously expect men not to make advances towards them when they flaunt their feminine anatomy by the immodest clothing that they wear.
Can women suggest by their actions and dress that they are permissive and then not expect men not to receive the message sent by the females by their revealing clothing and provocative manners and then expect that the men won't react to the message sent by these women.
Feminists will argue that because women dress in revealing clothing that emphasizes their feminity that men shouldn't react to to the females display as nature intented and the males then not to react as nature intended.
This is a ridiculous and fallacious argument by the women and is the same thing as saying that todays women aren't smart enough to comprehend the basic relationship between the male and female as nature intended there to be and are thus victims because men are smarter and read the signals sent by women who dress immodestly.
There was once a quote that expressed how nature worked and natures plan has not been made obsolete by the passage of time nor refuted. The Quote, " Bees go from flower to flower,not flowers from bee to bee." This is by natures design, although feminists reject this reality.
Quote above, author unknown
SecularMerlin

Con

A woman should have the right to walk down the street in nothing but here underwear without being raped, and so by extension without being harassed. For many tribes and nations throughout history a woman with bared breasts would be considered quite normal. More importantly she would suffer no negative social or sexual stigma. There are many reasons a person, male or female, might want to dress attractively. Among them, positive body image (I just wanted to feel pretty), social expectations (I have to dress up for the party), or purely coincidental (these jeans are a little tight but my other pair are dirty). If you assume that a woman is sexually receptive just because she is sexy perhaps you should work on your understanding of social cues.
It's all right to express interest, you may actually be the reason she's dressed like that, but if she gently rebuffs you, you should probably back off.
Debate Round No. 1
Lookingatissues

Pro

You replied, "A woman should have the right to walk down the street in nothing but here underwear without being raped, and so by extension without being harassed......"
sotheseedsofliberty2's rebuttal, round number 2
response: If we were only talking about a woman's rights you would be correct, people of both sexes have the right to do and conduct themselves in certain ways but they also are responsible for that conduct as well. If a woman dresses in a risque, provcative, manner, she knows that she is inviting attention to her feminine attributes when she dress like that. The woman who dresses in that manner is not innocent of the effects of dressing in a risque fashion and is not taken by surprised when men take notice of her and react in a normal male response to her apparal.There are all kinds of people though in this world with different levels of mental stabilities and a woman's risque apparal may be reacted to in unique and quite unsuspected ways.
A funny quote I once read on a sweat shirt conveyed this message, " ASK ME, I MIGHT," this is the message that a woman sends when she wears dresses that are risque.
SecularMerlin...posted," For many tribes and nations throughout history a woman with bared breasts would be considered quite normal...."
America has been thought of as one of the more developed countries and the countries standards and modes of acceptable dress and conduct, until recent times anyway, have been viewed by other nations as a higher level of civilization and as an example for other lesser developed nations to emulate.
But ," so-call, " Modern progressive Educators," like John Dewey, the father of modern education, modern thought in this country has bought the theory of " "relativism "....the...." Philosophy holding that truth or moral aesthetic value, is not universal or class absolute but may differ between class individuals or class cultures."
Quote from The Free Dictionary
SecularMerlin...posted," For many tribes and nations throughout history a woman with bared breasts would be considered quite normal...."
But we live in the present, not as native tribes once lived their lives and dressed, or didn't dress, like the aborigine tribes in which the standards are minimal we have "progressed, or regressed, according to how one looks at it, in America to a more developed nation. For example, in America, it wouldn't be acceptable to use a open field where males and females relieved themselves /went to the toilet, but in India this use of a common open field is still used as a common shared toilet.
Quote from, "Wisconsin Public Radio Web page June 9, 2014 ....Heard on Morning Edition
"..... India needs to shift the mindset that open defecation is "natural and normal"
" How A Lack Of Toilets Puts India's Women At Risk Of Assault"
June 9, 2014
SecularMerlin

Con

My opponent claims "if a woman dresses in a risque, provcative, manner, she knows that she is inviting attention to her feminine attributes when she dress like that. The woman who dresses in that manner is not innocent of the effects of dressing in a risque fashion and is not taken by surprised when men take notice of her." The problem is in knowing what any individual man will find risque or provocative. There are fetishists sights devoted to women dressed as nuns for example, are we to say "well if she didn't want that kind of attention she shouldn't have been dressed like a nun" in Saudi Arabia a woman is considered to be provocative and risque if jer hair is showing, even just one lock and especially if that hair is blonde. When you say women are responsible for inciting negative attention they don't want you are asking her to hide her sexuality all together. This is a subjective and prejudice view. To say "she was asking for it" is damaging to a person who has already been victimized.
He also states "America has been thought of as one of the more developed countries and the countries standards and modes of acceptable dress and conduct," to which I reply so what. It was never specified that this debate is contingent upon having an American standard for the modes of acceptable dress and conduct.
He also asserts that "in America, it wouldn't be acceptable to use a open field where males and females relieved themselves /went to the toilet" except that if you are camping it is. Also if I were deficating in a field that would hardly give you the right to force unwanted attention on me. However in his example he points out that women in India are subject to assault for this very reason. Should we considered then an Indian woman at fault because she ought to know how a woman crapping in a field gets an Indian guys motor revving. The subjective nature of attraction means that it is almost impossible for a woman to know if her model of dress or behavior would be considered provocative. Believe me its almost as hard to be sure that you are dressed sexy as to be sure that you are not. In conclusion in a country like America (since that is the country apparently whose biases are being discussed) where the negative social stigma of not being pretty are just as real and nearly as profound as the stigma of perceived sluttyness minus the threat of sexual assault, it is a very unfair double standard to say that dressing attractively, which is an expected social norm, is any excuse for the harassment of an individual. It is not a crime nor is it complicit to a crime to be sexy in and of itself.
Thank you
Debate Round No. 2
Lookingatissues

Pro

You Posted "My opponent claims "if a woman dresses in a risque, provcative, manner, she knows that she is inviting attention to her feminine attributes when she dress like that.
sotheseedsofliberty2's Response: The woman who dresses in that manner is not innocent of the effects of dressing in a risque fashion and is not taken by surprised when men take notice of her."
( A ) You replied,The problem is in knowing what any individual man will find risque or provocative.

sotheseedsofliberty2's Response:
( A ) A woman instinctively knows what manner of dress will stimulate the male's response to her and for you to inply that the woman isn't aware of the effects of her wearing a"risque, provcative," dress is insulting to all women's intelligence.

( B ) There are fetishists sights devoted to women dressed as nuns for example, are we to say "well if she didn't want that kind of attention she shouldn't have been dressed like a nun"
sotheseedsofliberty2's Response: These women by wearing a nuns robes are deliberertly, by their wearing nuns apparal,are drawing attention to themselves. Doesn't a judge, by wearing a robe or a policeman by the uniform that they wear also draw attention to themselves by their apparal.

( C ) in Saudi Arabia a woman is considered to be provocative and risque if jer hair is showing, even just one lock and especially if that hair is blonde. sotheseedsofliberty2's Response: In India,the cow is considered sacred.
"....there are varying beliefs about cattle in societies and religions. In some
regions, especially Nepal and most states of India,..." religions such as Hinduism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism,...." Wikipedia
What applies in Saudi Arabia or India doesn't apply in America.

( D ) When you say women are responsible for inciting negative attention they don't want you are asking her to hide her sexuality all together.

( D ) sotheseedsofliberty2's Response:
You are saying, it is either that she dress provocative and risque or her feminity will be denied and not recognnized. Modest dress does not mask a womans charms in any way.

( E ) This is a subjective and prejudice view. To say "she was asking for it" is damaging to a person who has already been victimized.
sotheseedsofliberty: You stated, I believe, that a womman should be able to run down a alley naked and not be raped..." this is not reality, not the real world that we live in, the real world is what we have to deal with here. James Madison once said,"If men were angels,no government...No rules of conduct/laws,... would be necessary...."

( F ) He also states "America has been thought of as one of the more developed countries and the countries standards and modes of acceptable dress and conduct," to which I reply so what.
sotheseedsofliberty: If you can take the liberty of flaunting Saudi Arabia as a standard of what is acceptable then I also am free to bring up America's standards of what is acceptable or not.
( G ) you stated,"It was never specified that this debate is contingent upon having an American standard for the modes of acceptable dress and conduct American standard for the modes of acceptable dress and conduct."

sotheseedsofliberty2: nor were the ground rules ever stated that America's "standard for the modes of acceptable dress and conduct" couldn't be used here.

( H ) He also asserts that "in America, it wouldn't be acceptable to use a open field where males and females relieved themselves /went to the toilet" except that if you are camping it is.
sotheseedsofliberty2's response: The peccadillos and lifestyles of campers will be left for another day.

( I ) Also if I were deficating in a field that would hardly give you the right to force unwanted attention on me.
sotheseedsofliberty2: If you, were brazen enough to expose yourself, if female, to the world in an open field your saying, by your actions that your fair game.

( J ) However in his example he points out that women in India are subject to assault for this very reason. Should we considered then an Indian woman at fault because she ought to know how a woman crapping in a field gets an Indian guys motor revving.
Here again "Relativism" rears its ugly head, who are we to judge other people's sexual fedishes.
"Diane Coffey, a Ph.D. candidate with Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School and an economist, She studied five northern Indian states and found that 19 percent of women with access to a latrine still preferred to defecate in the open."
Wikipedia
These Indian women then, like American women know what turns on American men, knew what revved up" an Indian guys motor."

( K ) The subjective nature of attraction means that it is almost impossible for a woman to know if her model of dress or behavior would be considered provocative.
sotheseedsofliberty2 Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, eve have known what turned a man on, come on now, your not that naive as to think that women don't understand and know when they are dressing
provocatively.

( L ) You replied, " Believe me its almost as hard to be sure that you are dressed sexy as to be sure that you are not."
sotheseedsofliberty2: unbelievable that you would make such a statement.
In conclusion in a country like America (since that is the country apparently whose biases are being discussed) where the negative social stigma of not being pretty are just as real and nearly as profound as the stigma of perceived sluttyness minus the threat of sexual assault, it is a very unfair double standard to say that dressing attractively, which is an expected social norm, is any excuse for the harassment of an individual.
( M ) You Posted," It is not a crime nor is it complicit to a crime to be sexy in and of itself."
Thank you
sotheseedsofliberty2: " beauty is in the eye of the beholder..."... For a woman to dress " slutty, identifies her as a woman who doesn't care about her moral image and respect.
SecularMerlin

Con

In my final argument I will address your last point particularly. You admit beauty is In the eye of the beholder and not the beheld. You then to go on to say for a woman to dress " slutty, identifies her as a woman who doesn't care about her moral image and respect.
In my last comment I specifically used the words perceived sluttyness. You understand that women in general don't want to be perceived as sluts and so most do not dress in a way that, and this is important, they considered slutty, but that concept too is in the eye of the beholder not the beheld. So here we have a situation that bares considering. No woman, generally speaking wants people to think her easy, but they do want to be attractive. If You disagree with her assessment of her own personal mode of dress then you feel the right to make a statement about how much she cares about her moral image and your respect.
Who are you to make that distinction for her. She has spent her whole life being shown an unattainable standard and told "this is pretty, girls should be pretty" and judged by that standard in real and documented ways. Then when she tries to live up to this standard, utterly certain she has failed, if she crosses some imaginary line in your head you get to say "she's a slut she doesn't care about her moral image or my respect".
Are you sure that's the kind of man you want to be? You're right about society not being perfect. What I hope you understand is that the change needs to start inside you, inside me, inside all of us. The truth is this attitude of she was asking for it wouldn't be a half bad place to start. Won't you join me in the belief that no woman wants you to think she's amoral and all of them want respect?
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 6 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: Pro by default!

[*Reason removal*] Not an RFD.
************************************************************************
Posted by SecularMerlin 7 months ago
SecularMerlin
Anyone who can be overpowered is prone to being raped. It doesn't matter if it's a woman or not.
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 7 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
@SecularMerlin You really think women are automatically prone to being raped.
That is completely false!
Posted by SecularMerlin 7 months ago
SecularMerlin
Don't you agree that a woman could be abused and even raped by a woman? Do you agree that a man can be abused or even raped? If you replace the word woman with the word person and the word women with the word people do my comments become untrue? Does anyone deserve to be considered only good for suckin' and fuckin'? Is that all your good for? Tell me what are you wearing right now is it sexy, I bet you want it. I think your asking for it. If you weren't trying to turn me on you wouldn't talk dirty like this.
Posted by Lookingatissues 7 months ago
Lookingatissues
Wouldn't it be idea, a utopia here on earth, if we had finally arrived at that stage of societal developmment where no laws or rules of personal conduct were required because everyone loved and honored their neighbor as themselves. As the Bible admonished us to do,".... Love thy neighbor as thyself." But alas, we must face the fact, that reality that we humans haven't quite reached that stage of societal developmment , that utopia.
You have in your comments placed the responsibility of proper conduct in relationship between a male and female solely on the male leaving the female free of any obligations on her part.
you posted,"Won't you join me in the belief that no woman wants you to think she's amoral and all of them want respect."
I've heard this old quote and it applies to how a woman is preceived.
"If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck , your probably dealing with a duck "
"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands."Author unknown
Is this the law below that humans should live by?
***Secular Natural Law
The school of natural law known as secular natural law replaces the divine laws of God with the physical, biological, and behavioral laws of nature as understood by human reason.
https://www.britannica.com...
Posted by Lookingatissues 7 months ago
Lookingatissues
usawinseverytime 2 days ago

You replied," As I always say... "women are only good for two things - suckin' and fuckin'."
You do have a way with words
Posted by SecularMerlin 7 months ago
SecularMerlin
Also you never answered me speaking of assumption what makes you think I'm a feminist
Posted by SecularMerlin 7 months ago
SecularMerlin
Oh did I make you a little uncomfortable? Is that hard to talk about? Just think how much worse it would have been if you really had been raped. Felt almost like I was accusing you of something didn't it? That's how it feels to try to tell someone you've been raped whether your a man or a woman. On top of which you've been raped. I'm not trying to be less than civil, I'm making a point.
Posted by GrayfiaLucifuge 7 months ago
GrayfiaLucifuge
In this debate I shall support pro as with most femenists I have debated with, no actual intellectual arguements or counter points have been made. Con seems to be unable to debate in a civil manner unfortunately.
Posted by SecularMerlin 7 months ago
SecularMerlin
Hey. Gray. Buddy I'm talking to you. It's okay to cry Gray I'm listening. Just say what you gotta. I'm there for you buddy.
No votes have been placed for this debate.