Do catholics believe and follow Exod 20:4-5?
Debate Rounds (5)
Exod 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
By bowing to the pope, etc., they are, in fact going against this scripture!
I find it unnecessary to only us the King James Version of the Bible as it is far removed from the original books; however, since you laid the rules out I will abide by them unless you wish to change them for the following rounds.
First of all, the scripture passage when saying " Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them" is referencing the above "graven images" that "Thou shalt not make". Now, I am aware of the argument that us Catholics do not follow the scriptures because we "worship" graven images but you did not bring that up at all, you brought up us bowing to the Pope who is a person, not a "graven image" and the "bowing to the Pope" is not addressed at all in your quoted scripture. I will not address the graven image issue at this time since you did not, if you choose to bring it up in Round 2 I will have a rebuttal.
Besides the fact that the scripture passage you quoted does not address bowing down to people at all, as Christians we no longer follow the old Jewish laws, which this is one. If we did have to uphold the old Jewish laws, we could not eat certain seafood: KJV Leviticus 11:10 "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you". The old law also allowed for the practice of Polygamy: KJV Exodus 21:10 "If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." Obviously, as Christians we are not forbidden from eating seafood and we are not allowed to have multiple spouses because the old Jewish law does not apply to us; the new covenant which Christ brought forth does.
I await your rebuttal/new points in round 2.
You, as a catholic, bow to a pope whom you claim is the vicar of Christ.
According to Miriam dictionary a vicar is;
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy.
Therefore, he and you claim he is a substitute (hence: likeness) for Christ. Is not Jesus in heaven?
Now, we know that Christ is;
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
1John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
So as we can see, catholics will try and replace or give a substitute word as truth (confusion). And then bow down to this false god or words.
I will employ the readers to keep their guard against any false words that con will try and claim against the Word of God!
He, as a believer must rely on the word of truth, the Word of God, to support or prove his point.
Where in scripture does it say to follow any man? Or to bow to a substitute (fake) christ?
I will claim that God is not the author of confusion!
Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Jeremiah 10:23 " O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Please re-read the definition you provided (emphasis mine): "1: one serving as a substitute OR agent; specifically : an administrative deputy." You completely ignored the latter part of the definition, the Pope is not a substitute for Christ as the Pope is in no way God and is a sinful man just like you and I. Rather, he is the steward or agent for Jesus until he returns in the second coming. In Matthew 16 we see Jesus bestowing the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" in which he appoints Simon Peter as his steward (Pope) to carry out the administrative duties of the Church on earth.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
There is no denying that the Pope was made in "likeness" (or in image) to Christ because we all are:
Genesis: 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
This isn't anything that the Pope holds a Monopoly on as you and I and all of mankind are created in God's image.
When we bow to the Pope, we are not worshiping him or making him a god, we are simply showing reverence as a soldier may show by saluting and standing at attention in the presence of the President or a man may show to his wife by standing up when she enters the room.
Again, we do not " try and replace or give a substitute word [Jesus] as truth" or claim that he is Christ. The Pope is not replacing Christ but is rather his "Prime Minister" on earth. In the Old Testament, The Kings of Israel had Prime Ministers which would carry out the basic operations of the Kingdom while the Kind was away. This did not make them Kings, however they were given the authority to act for the King until his return. In the same way, the Pope being the "Prime Minister" of the Church on Earth does not make him God.
Content aside, I find that your form and tone leave a lot to be desired, which in my opinion severely hurts your credibility.
Your sentence: "I will employ the readers to keep their guard against any false words that con will try and claim against the Word of God!" is quite unprofessional and sensational in that you are merely trying to scare readers into discounting my side of the debate.
I also find it funny that you accuse me of "writing nothing at all" while you in fact wrote less than I had (339 words in my round 1 and 297 words in your round 2).
I hope that you decide to (professionally) address my assertions from round 1 that we are no longer bound by Old Testament Jewish law and that the Scripture passage we are (supposed) to be debating (Exodus 20:4-5) doesn't address "bowing down" to people, only the making and worshiping of graven images which I think we can both agree that the Pope is not one as he is a person and not an image. So far you really haven't shown how Catholics do not follow that scripture the way Christians are supposed to.
We must look to Gods Word to define Gods Word as I have asked to be part of the rules. Clearly, from scripture we are told;
Jeremiah 17:5 "" Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Therefore, we are told to trust NO man!!!!
1 Corinthians 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
Not only is He not an author of confusion but He does not change either!
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
He does not confuse, He does not change, And He does not Lie!!
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
I answered your question, "Where did He stop it or change it?" Show me the scriptures to support your assertion.
Yet, you twist the words as I pointed out that you would do. I said nothing about worshiping (go back and look) the pope, I only spoke of the scriptures when its the scripture clearly saying to not even bow!!!! In fact, you yourself are admitting that you do not believe and you completely disregard following the scripture to which we are debating. You said that you bow to the pope, therefore, out of your own mouth you admit that you don't believe and nor follow this scripture.
Must I also remind everyone of how many statues catholics bow too as well!!!
Take note of the correlation of bowing and serving in this scripture. It say's "Do not bow to any likeness or serve any likeness"! The pope puts himself in the position of a likeness (representation, substitute, or similitude) to Christ in heaven, as you have pointed out with catholics claiming he is a rock.
As for that tiresome debate that you catholics are so sure that you have figured out, Lets look at who the Rock is.
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Apparently your rock is different than my Rock!!
Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
The scriptures require two, three witnesses: (show me your multiple witnesses!)
Matthew 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
Deuteronomy 17:6 "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."
Also, How am I the one who writes nothing of substance? All you have done is repeat the same things over and over again in a sensationalist manner, employing hyperbole and scare tactics. I understand that this topic excites you, but including multiple exclamation points after every other sentence only shows your lack of command of the English language and grammar. Now onto the actual debate.
In numerous places in both the new and old, it states that the old covenant (the laws and agreements between God and the Jews) will be abolished and replaced by the new:
Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Hebrews 8:7-8 - For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
After seeing so many instances in both the New and the Old Testament of the Old Covenant being abolished in favor of the New which Jesus has brought to us, it seems pretty obvious that we are no longer bound by Jewish law. By your logic, we would still be required to sacrifice animals to God and could practice polygamy since those were included in the Old testament laws.
After establishing the fact that Christ came to replace the Old covenant and laws with the New, your argument that Catholics do not follow the law of God completely goes out of the window. If we are still bound by the old Covenant, why does it say otherwise in the Bible, which you claim is the sole authority?
I never said that God changes, however it is pretty clear that he DID implement a new COVENANT and a new law that we must abide by, as he sent Jesus to institute the New Covenant. We can see this when Paul in his second letter to the Colossions says that we are no longer bound by the Kosher laws of the Jews:
Colossians 2:16-17 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink...
Yes we do bow the the Pope but AGAIN we are not required to adhere to the old law. Please answer these questions: do you believe eating seafood is an abomination? Do you believe polygamy is morally acceptable? Both of these are spelled out in the Old Testament as I posted in earlier rounds as laws that you have to follow. Do you believe we have to adhere to these laws? Why not? I'll answer this one for you: because the old Jewish law no longer applies to us Christians as I have outlined in multiple Bible passages above, all from the King James Version. The same thing applies to bowing to the Pope.
If Christ was not bestowing authority onto Peter, then what was he talking about when he said that he was giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven? If Peter and his successors did not hold authority over the Church, did Christ lie or make a mistake when he said they did? Following your line of thinking, he must of, even though you have already correctly illustrated that God cannot confuse and cannot lie.
Also, if we can not be guided by man the way the Pope guides Christ's Church on Earth, that means we cannot have ANY religious leaders or guidance. I assume you are a Churchgoing person. If you are, in the services you attend you are following your pastor/preacher/priest in that he is guiding you in your Christian faith and moral development, in the same way as the Pope does for Catholics. The scriptures mean that we cannot let anyone take the place of Jesus, and that no one else can lead us to salvation. It doesn't mean men cannot guide us and help us follow Christ, we receive help and guidance from the clergy of our churches, whether they are Evangelical Preachers, Baptist Pastors or the Pope.
I do not understand your line: "The scriptures require two, three witnesses: (show me your multiple witnesses!)" You seem to be extremely confused by the meaning of this, if you read the entire chapters instead of taking a couple of sentences out of context, you will see that Matthew 18 dealt with the procedure for solving conflicts between two people.
Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
As you can see, this has nothing to do with anything you have brought up. The same goes for Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
Unfortunately, I do not think this debate will continue to be productive. The reader may want to note, that after I sent a friendly message to my opponent and commended him for another debate that he won, he responded trying to apostatize me, claiming I am a non Christian. The complete inability to drop the subject we are debating outside of the debate itself further illustrates my opponents childishness and his inability to accept the fact that there are those that disagree with him.
From now on my submissions will be shorter as I believe I have presented enough to contrast me and my position from my opponent and his.
The first verse Hebrews 8:13 that was quoted and needs the complete context, Lets see;
Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Quote; "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:"
Hebrews 8:11 "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
1) Isaiah 1:10 " Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
2) Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
It would seem that His Word / God is His law, since He shows them to be synonymous.
Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."
Hebrews 8:13 "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
So as we can see the new covenant was NOT that he took away the laws, only that He promised to write them in the hearts and minds. So that does not support your idea of God changing and taking away the law of not bowing to a likeness. The law still exists, it was just written in a different place.
And sorry but 2Cor 3:6 has NO reference to taking away or changing!
And Hebrews 8:7-8 as noted above still refers to the law simply being written in hearts and minds, NOT taken away or changed!
In fact Jesus says;
Matthew 5:17 "" Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
You brought up Colossians 2:16-17, so lets look again at the full context - this should also answer all the other questions as well;
Colossians 2:2 "That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;"
1) John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
God is the Word and that is the mystery that is revealed!
Colossians 2:3 "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
It is the Word / God that holds all wisdom and knowledge.
Colossians 2:4 "And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words."
And if any man shall try to entice you.
1) Jeremiah 17:5 "" Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."
Colossians 2:5 "For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ."
Colossians 2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:"
I walk in Christ Jesus the Word. Not mans institutions.
1) 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Colossians 2:7 "Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving."
Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
1) Jeremiah 10:23 " O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
In Jesus Christ the Word dwelleth all the fulness.
Colossians 2:10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"
Colossians 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"
Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
Colossians 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Colossians 2:17 "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
1) Hebrews 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
I think Pro is confused about the definition of covenant, however, I will help him;
As we can see from the following verses a covenant is a promise not law / Gods Word is His law, Gen thru Rev..
2 Chronicles 21:7 Howbeit the LORD would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
So I am still waiting for more proof text as to why we should bow down to anyone or anything.
pjmcgs95 forfeited this round.
Psalms 56:10 "In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word."
Psalms 56:11 "In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me."
pjmcgs95 forfeited this round.
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Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
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