The Instigator
jp16103
Con (against)
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The Contender
abelsmack
Pro (for)
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Do the 613 commandments of the old law found in the Old Testament (the Torah) apply to Christians?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,229 times Debate No: 43268
Debate Rounds (5)
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jp16103

Con

Do the 613 commandments of the old law found in the Old Testament (the Torah) apply to Christians? If it does not, do Christians have a biblical base for being against homosexuality?

The first round is acceptance and the side you are taking.


My Background:

I was born and raised in a conservative Jewish family that held Sephardic traditions. My parents were Modern Orthodox until they joined a conservative Jewish synagogue two years before I was born. Until last year I was a practicing Jew who kept the 613 commandments until I found faith in Yeshua (Jesus), and since I consider myself a Messianic Jew or a Jewish follower of the Christ. Note, I do not attend any Messianic synagogues and my views on Christ are not necessarily the same as for lack of a better term "official" synagogues.

My View

The old law does not apply to Christians and Christians have no biblical case against homosexuality.

Please Note
As this debate is a theological one and a matter to interpretation I think we should try to use the Bible as much as possible and limit other sources.

The last round will be closing arguments.
abelsmack

Pro

I accept.

My Background:

Raised nondenominational Christian and parents converted once and back again. Grew up attending different churches on a superficial level. Explored other religions but that isn't relevant to the debate. I am an Atheist, I don't believe in divinity, the supernatural or anything that is beyond the explanation of history, science, or evidence. I have changed my views multiple times due to my upbringing so I've argued on many sides of the fence. I have been a very firm Atheist for about half a decade, I still have the same question everyone else does but I look for explanations that do not rely on faith or suppositions. Given enough evidence I am willing to admit when I am wrong and am receptive to changing my views when they fail me.

My View

The negative of "The old law does not apply to Christians and Christians have no biblical case against homosexuality."

Also Note
I am not a Christian and do not view homosexuality as immoral. I am arguing that Christian theology requires adherence to the commandments which includes the restrictions and taboos they place on homosexuality. I do not believe that Jesus negated the old laws or establish new ones contrary to them, rather he claimed to fulfill them,

Let's have an awesome debate!
Debate Round No. 1
jp16103

Con

Thank you for accepting the debate.

The 613 commandments of the old law found in the Old Testament (the Torah) do not apply to Christians and Christians have no biblical case against homosexuality

Main Points:
  • The "old law" or the "old covenant" was more than just a set of laws for the Jews, the old covenant contained a promise. A promise that stated the G-d would send a mesiah (moshiach) to save his chosen people. When Jesus was born the messiah arrived, therefore the covenant was fulfilled and the old law did not apply, except for specific laws that Jesus taught his followers to follow.
  • Jesus believed that nobody could be saved because nobody could possibly keep the law.
  • The core reason above all others of why the old law no longer applies is because Jesus was the final sacrifice to God for all of our sins, past, present, and future. There is no reason to follow the law because faith in Christ can lead to your salvation. (John 14:6)
  • Even if I'm wrong, and the law is still binding Christians do not need to worry. The law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel, to the Jewish people. The law does not affect gentiles and therefore does not apply to Christians, but considering I myself am a Jew this argument still applies to me therefore I am going to argue it.
  • When looking at the Bible, everything should be looked at in context. The same goes for any passages that on their surface are the exact opposite of my main points. I will address those below:
Matthew 5:17–18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19*Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
  • Jesus is saying that his arrival fufills the prophecies of the messiah and fufill the second half of the covenant. At this point though, we need to look at the circumstances. No one was saved yet, the final attonement for our sins had not yet occured therefore the law was still in effect. When Jesus died for our sins the covenant was fulfilled completely.
abelsmack

Pro

We have 2 parts to the debate 1st whether the old law applies to Christians, this is important because this is what many Christians use to frame their opinions on homosexuality. The 2nd part is whether they are justified in opposing homosexuality on the grounds of Biblical adherence.



Let’s establish some things first:

My opponent already stated what the commandments are. (http://www.jewfaq.org...)


He also refers to Jesus being the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.

Jewish interpretation why Jesus isn’t. http://www.jewfaq.org...
A neutral interpretation. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Christian version why he is. http://christiananswers.net... .


This is important because Christianity and Jesus derive their authority from Judaism and its prophecies. For the sake of this argument we will assume Jesus is the Messiah and his teachings are the path to salvation.

First we have determine what the old and new testament say about homosexuality, this is what drives the debate. What does it say and does it still apply to anyone today?


Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." (NLT).

Romans 1:26-27 26God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. 27Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)

1 Timothy 1:8-10 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine ... (ESV)

Jude 7 And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment. (NIV)

Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (KJV)

Also read Genesis 19:1-11, Judges 19:16-24, 1 Kings 14:24, 1 Kings 15:12, 2 Kings 23:7 for further examples.
Pretty obvious that homosexuality is not ok. Also an early commandment is to be fruitful and multiply which required hetero sex (Gen. 1:28). Eunuchs cannot marry (Deut. 23:2), God is very specific when it comes to sex. I might have missed a few examples and there are other commandments that restrict other relations not specific to this conversation I didn’t include.Now do the old commandments only apply to only Jews? Well there are Noah’s commandments http://www.auburn.edu... that apply to all humanity simply because we all descend from him and inherit these laws. Actually the Noahdic Covenant applies to all living creatures,



Genesis 9:8–10 8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 “Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth.
This is also true for the Adamic covenant http://www.gotquestions.org... . So the answer is no, at least some commandments apply to everyone. One thing to note is that these new covenants don’t negated the old ones.

We now have to determine where Christians fit in. Rabbi’s have to make 3 vigorous attempts to dissuade would be converts but gentiles can convert to Judaism. Children born after conversion are Jewish. ttp://www.wikihow.com...

First what are Christian’s? They are followers of Jesus of Nazareth, that’s what matters. Jesus never used the term Christ which comes from Greek. Jesus first followers were Jews called Nazarenes. They were just as Jewish as everyone around them. The difference is that they believed that Jesus was the Messiah and the rest did not. There are thousands of denominations of Christianity but Jesus was a Jewish rabbi and his followers were Jewish. Jesus was either a fraud or he is the Messiah, if you believe the latter then you have to believe the prophecies are true. That means Christianity or Jesusanity (whatever you want to call it) cannot be true on it’s own, it has to fit Judaism's criteria for the Messiah.

My opponent states that Jesus birth is a completion of the old laws “ therefore the covenant was fulfilled and the old law did not apply, except for specific laws that Jesus taught his followers to follow.” He also allows for another way for them to still apply to Jews and not Christians, “Even if I'm wrong, and the law is still binding Christians do not need to worry. The law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel, to the Jewish people. The law does not affect gentiles and therefore does not apply to Christians.” Followers of Jesus are adopting Jewish beliefs, Jews didn’t start calling themselves Mosaics when Moses delivered the laws. Jesus contributed to an existing foundation of beliefs and traditions, he did not negate or replace them.

Jesus said Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

This means that they are still in effect until heaven and earth pass away which has not happened. When gentiles accepted Jesus’ teachings they were accepting Jewish traditions which includes that the righteous of all nations can be saved and that God demands obedience.

If the laws still apply Jesus would require his followers to obey them. He claims, “When Jesus died for our sins the covenant was fulfilled completely.” This is a not true he has not fulfilled all the prophecies, hence the second coming. Also Early gentile converts were really converting to Judaism, Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Romans 10:12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same {Lord} is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; Galatians 3:14So that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

In Matthew 19:16, Jesus was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life. His answer: "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments"You said if you were wrong about Jesus fulfilling the old commandments you were still obligated as a jew to follow them. Well any converts would be too, Christians are followers of a Jewish rabbi and should be following the old laws. Otherwise why even bother having the old testament? God is clearly against homosexuality, he never said "as soon as Jesus gets here, anything goes!"







Debate Round No. 2
jp16103

Con

jp16103 forfeited this round.
abelsmack

Pro

My opponent has forfeited the round. I willa allow him to to respond in the next round.
Debate Round No. 3
jp16103

Con

jp16103 forfeited this round.
abelsmack

Pro

My opponent forfeits.
Debate Round No. 4
jp16103

Con

jp16103 forfeited this round.
abelsmack

Pro

My opponent forfeited and apparently unsubscribed. Vote for me if at all.
Debate Round No. 5
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