The Instigator
pontob
Con (against)
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The Contender
TheSilentHorseman
Pro (for)
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0 Points

Do we live in a victim blaming rape culture?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/23/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,214 times Debate No: 39341
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

pontob

Con

1. Rape is frowned upon by society. I refer to posters saying "don't be that guy" and adverts on the t.v saying "if you could see yourself you wouldn't rape". In addition, school teaches us that we must always accept when people just say no.

2. Saying that we should teach women to avoid getting raped is not victim blaming. Let me give you a metaphor to explain myself. We teach people to lock their doors at night to avoid getting robbed. That doesn't mean that we think getting robbed is acceptable when it does happen and that people who forget to lock their doors are just reaping what they sow. We teach women to take these precautions because we know that some people will not take no for an answer even when told that it is immoral.

3. We already have harassment laws which state that rape is illegal. Also, even telling jokes about rape in our current society is considered taboo, so I would have thought it obvious that rape itself is considered wrong. Just because we live in a society where there is more promiscuity, does not mean we are forcing our sexual desires on people.

4. Some people tell me that some guys don't know that its rape if the victims are drunk or incapacitated. I'm just going to call bull on that. Some guys may think that it is lesser of two evils, but they know its still evil or at least not the right thing to do. The point is that they just don't care enough to refrain from doing it.

5. We are already implementing the " just teach them otherwise" philosophy to a fault. Posters like "don't be that guy" encourage the stereotype that men will just rape and attack women if they aren't told not to. This is both ineffective and insulting towards men. Moreover, it teaches women to think that rapists are only misinformed about what rape really is or that these rapists can simply be told not to and that's the end of it. This puts real victims of rape into a false sense of understanding with possible offenders. When in reality most rapists have done it before and will do it again.

7. We are not saying that women must take every precaution imaginable. I agree with the YouTube blogger Thunderfoot on this issue where he states " we must teach people to lock their windows, but not brick them up." It is possible to live a safe life without barring yourself from having an enjoyable one.

8. False rape claims. Some people claim that there are not enough rape convictions and I agree that we must take measures to increase convictions, but we must collectively understand that rape is a very hard crime to prove. If we were to just take the word of any woman who filed for a rape charge, then any disliked man would be at dire risk of prosecution. This is one of the key reasons I would encourage teaching young women how to keep safe. The justice system is far from perfect, and by taking precautions we can keep women from ever having to go through the trail of court. (Though I admit that there will always be rape cases.)
TheSilentHorseman

Pro

I affirm the resolution. Before continuing to the elaboration of my case, I must define the following key term in the resolution in order to enhance our understanding about the case at hand:

Rape culture: “An environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women’s rights and safety.” [1]

The cases in Steubenville and Maryville in terms of the response to rape victims are prominent, but not isolated examples that display that American society are turned toward a culture where rape is considered socially permissible. “The Steubenville boys used the term repeatedly and seemed well aware that intercourse with the unconscious girl would have been rape—though apparently not that Ohio’s legal definition of the crime includes digital penetration. Judging by the text messages, they also knew early on that they might be in trouble with the law if the girl and her parents found out what had happened. To blogger Amanda Marcotte, the mere fact that the attackers were initially eager to broadcast their deeds shows that they expected social support and even approval. But maybe it shows simply that they weren’t very bright; Mays and his friends actually discussed deleting incriminating messages in case their cell phones were seized by the police, but never followed up. There is nothing new about adolescents flaunting socially unacceptable behavior. Consider girls making videos of beating up other girls to post them on the Internet; or a recent incident in Homer, Alaska in which an unconscious 16-year-old boy at an alcohol-soaked football team party was sodomized with a beer bottle while other teens, boys and girls, looked on and some took pictures. The case got virtually no national media attention, perhaps because it does not fit the “rape culture” paradigm: no sane person would argue that our culture views male rape with beer bottles as normal boyish hijinks.” [2] Rape culture is not limited only to the grant of permissibility to rape, but also its prevalence in the country. This is a prevalence that has been well-established in the United States: “Almost 18 million women and almost 3 million men in the United States have been raped. One of every six women has been raped at some time. In a single year, more than 300,000 women and almost 93,000 men are estimated to have been raped.” [3] This makes the United States among one of the highest in terms of incidences of rape in the world.

Our media culture also desensitizes youth to the victims of rape, as a study from Southwestern Oklahoma State University suggests: “This experiment is an important investigation of the impact of highly sexualized and objectified portrayals of women on perceptions of rape. These results illustrate
that for college males, viewing mainstream, commercially available music videos, the highly sexualized portrayal of a female artist is associated with judging a date rapist as less guilty. For both males and females, this portrayal was associated with less empathy for the victim. For women, this portrayal was associated with greater judgment of responsibility for the victim.” [4]

[1] Marshall University, "Rape Culture." Accessed October 26, 2013. http://www.marshall.edu...

[2] Young, Cathy. "Is America a 'Rape Culture?'." Real Clear Politics, March 28, 2013. http://www.realclearpolitics.com... (accessed October 26, 2013).

[3] Schmitt, Glenn. "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Rape Victimization: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey ." Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. : iii. https://www.ncjrs.gov... (accessed October 26, 2013).

[4] Burgess, Melinda, and Sandra Burpo. "THE EFFECT OF MUSIC VIDEOS ON COLLEGE STUDENTS' PERCEPTIONS OF RAPE." Southwestern Oklahoma State University. : 757.
Debate Round No. 1
pontob

Con

Responses to points you made in round 1#
What I agreed with
Your definition of rape culture correlates to my own understanding of it as long and you need the normalisation and condoning of rape to claim it exists, not just the prevalence.
The sources you provided are intelligent and many statements put forward (especially in the second) I agreed with. Speaking of which, I find it strange you shared a link to a page that agrees we are not a rape culture. If you are trying to be open to both sides of the argument that"s cool, but it seems rather contrary to the argument you are trying to make. http://www.realclearpolitics.com...
third paragraph from the bottom.
I agree that rape is prevalent in the western world; your statistics accurately back this up as well.
What I disagreed with
. The reaction of CNN/Fox News as evidence of rape culture: I am not American, but even I know how one-sided Fox news can be in both their viewpoints and journalistic practice. They are that renowned for it! If you were to find some evidence of journalism from the BBC which took the side of the rapist then I would be more inclined to take your side on this. There were a lot of blogs released at the time CNN and Fox News covered this anyway, including ones that were critical of the poor coverage and bias towards the offender"s point of view. The TV coverage of these conservatives is not necessarily to be taken as the general opinion, nor should it be evidence of rape culture since there was a backlash once they did so.

You might say that the media should have looked at the victim"s side more than the rapists, but try to see it from a victim"s point of view. As for the Steubenville rape case she had just been raped and it was plastered over the internet; would you want massive media coverage after that? I imagine she just wants to get on with her life as best she can as opposed to reliving the scenario under the gaze of journalistic vultures. Journalists have always wanted to capture drama to increase readers and so sales. To do this they need a victim. Seeing as the victim in this case does not want to try and milk the horrific event they often decide to look at the rapist"s reaction to hype up the case and stir up emotion. Now, I disagree with this course of action, but does it mean the media is insinuating rape is normal/ condonable? I see no reason to think so.
Also, on average women get more publicity in the media when they are raped than a man does when he is murdered. I find it disingenuous to state that their suffering is generally downplayed when you consider facts like this into the equation.

Media/Music videos point: I don"t really buy this as an indication that they endorse such behaviour. These artists manage to sell their albums because listeners like to pretend that they are the kind of person who would do this. However, this is just the same argument as is given to the video gaming community also. People who play online may like the idea of being a sneaky assassin who kills hundreds of people without giving a toss, but that doesn"t increase their chances of being an assassin or desensitise them to other people"s real life suffering. People who play violent video games and listen to that kind of music can keep their fantasies out of their real lives as they know it would be immoral not to. No rational human being listens to a song about sex and immediately takes that as a justification for rape. In addition, it is just primal bravado that drives these industries, all steam and no go. Moreover, most sexualised modern music is just about sex, not specifically rape. Even the song "Blurred Lines" has a story where the sex is consensual if you look at the lyrics. The women depicted in the music industry are often shown to be powerless because men like to feel they are strong and powerful in that kind of situation. However, these desires are not tantamount to a desire to force sex on women; rather it"s more of a way for them to stroke their egos and fuel common sexual desire. Finally, rappers like Rick Ross have actually made music about raping someone who is unconscious and he got a spam of backlash which caused him to apologise for the music. This shows our culture is able to speak out against misogyny in the media when it sees it, rather than endorse it as a rape culture would.

Links to back up my statements:
http://mediamatters.org... ("Some cornerstones to journalism's Code of Ethics, followed by clear-cut examples of how Fox News tramples that code" )
TheSilentHorseman

Pro


Before continuing to my case, I would like to express that there was no definition to the term “we” in the resolution, so I submitted to the assumption that the case was focusing on the United States. However, if the debate is more focused on a global scale, the debate does skew toward the favor of the Pro with consideration of countries where the implantation of women’s rights has not fully developed and women are not only blamed for rape, but punished as well for the rape they have suffered. Also, considering that my opponent has accepted my definition of “rape culture,” although my burden is to prove the normalization of rape, the prevalence is also something that cannot be ignored in consideration of whether or not a rape culture exists in the global society. With that, I move toward my rebuttals.



[Con Case]



Points 1, 3: I don’t think I can agree that rape us considered to be serious or taboo among the people of our society, especially in consideration of the prevalence of rape jokes. College chants condoning the rape of women, for example, are the epitome what rape culture is talking about, and women comedians have noted the prevalence of misogyny among the forms of comedy presented in performances. [1][2] This is only construed to countries where the implementation of women’s rights has been farther than others as some other countries have it even worse in terms of rape. Some countries actually punish women for being raped, making it questionable that rape is illegal at a global level. Also, my opponent should take into consideration the difference between the illegalization of rape and any efforts to enforce these laws. As Maryville, MO shows, rape can be illegal, but little can be done in terms of justice when it occurs.



Points 2, 6: At any point where one shifts responsibility for rape toward any victim of rape, man or woman, is victim-blaming. To attempt to teach women not to get raped makes the implication that the victims bear responsibility in the occurrence of rape. My question then becomes: how do you teach people not to be raped? I can elaborate more on my response once my opponent answers that question.



Point 4: I completely agree with this point. However, the fact that there are men who try to make excuses as to why they raped only adds to fact that they’re trying to make rape excusable, hence sustaining my argument of the existence of a rape culture.



Point 5: This is only an attempt to counteract rape culture, and if it really is ineffective, it is only showing the strength of rape culture in the said society. I don’t exactly know how this is offensive nor how this promotes a stereotype as it’s not suggesting that all men rape. My opponent also shows no evidence that this is ineffective, not that it would have a bearing on whether or not a rape culture exists.



Point 7: Nor does my opponent provide any evidence on the prevalence of false rape claims either.



[Pro Case]



The Media: My opponent seems to think that I’m saying that the media should have reflected the story from the victims’ perspective. Although I do think a victim’s perspective is good if its presented with the consent of the victim, that’s not what I was trying to get at. What I was trying to get at was that the mainstream media provided more sympathy toward the rapists rather than the victim. While CNN and Fox News did do segments providing more sympathy toward the rapists, they weren’t alone. Good Morning America also made a special on the case where they were paying sympathy for the rapists. The Ed Show on MSNBC posted a tweet wondering who the real victim of the rape was. The general opinion wasn’t any better considering the things people said in response to the rape, such as “Sarcastic example tweet: "The Steubenville story is all too familiar. Be responsible for your actions ladies before your drunken decisions ruin innocent lives." Sincere example tweet: "So you got drunk at a party and two people take advantage of you, that's not rape you're just a loose drunk slut."” [3] So, really, it’s not just the media. It’s also the community response, all of which condemned the woman. There were blogs that responded negatively to the Steubenville rape, but a lot of them were mainly women’s rights-oriented blogs that don’t represent the whole of the community. As for the music in the media…I will respond to this in the next round.



[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...


[2] http://www.bbc.co.uk...


[3] http://www.theatlanticwire.com...


Debate Round No. 2
pontob

Con

Sorry, I should have been more specific about the resolution. It"s a bit too much ground to cover the whole world as there are too many different cultures, so for now I suggest we just keep it to the U.S and U.k.
Response:
"Points 1, 3: I don"t think I can agree that rape is considered to be serious or taboo among the people of our society, especially in consideration of the prevalence of rape jokes. "
9/11 and child abuse are a taboo topic in our culture, yet still people make jokes about them in mainstream comedy. This has no bearing on what we think of these issues outside of the context of comedy.

"Also, my opponent should take into consideration the difference between the illegalization of rape and any efforts to enforce these laws. As Maryville, MO shows, rape can be illegal, but little can be done in terms of justice when it occurs."

I do understand that rape culture is not contained to law. Little can be done in term of justice for many victims, yes. However, quite often these cases come down to one person"s word against the other and it is unjust to assume one person is telling the truth because they are coming forth as a victim.

"To attempt to teach women not to get raped makes the implication that the victims bear responsibility in the occurrence of rape. "

There is no such implication. Teaching people ways to avoid a rape scenario is not implying they are responsible for the outcome it is solely about showing them ways to minimise their chances of getting raped.

"My question then becomes: how do you teach people not to be raped? I can elaborate more on my response once my opponent answers that question."

You can take precautions like going out with friends or not going down areas which are prone to crime. Now, you can take every conceivable precaution and still get raped, but it will reduce your chances of it happening. Doing this will help potential victims far more than many laws will because it avoids the entire incident.

"Point 4: I completely agree with this point. However, the fact that there are men who try to make excuses as to why they raped only adds to fact that they"re trying to make rape excusable, hence sustaining my argument of the existence of a rape culture."

Anyone who commits a crime is going to try and make an excuse for it, that"s human nature. If that is evidence for rape culture, it is also evidence of every other kind of "crime culture".

"Point 7: Nor does my opponent provide any evidence on the prevalence of false rape claims either."

I shouldn"t have to provide this evidence. Every injustice should be addressed, no matter how unlikely it is. You should be able to consider all different sides to a story and not just condemn someone out of probability.

"The Ed Show on MSNBC posted a tweet wondering who the real victim of the rape was."

I don"t know what tweet this was, but it seems rather contradictory to what they are saying here.
http://www.nbcnews.com...

Here the presenter is actually saying that the media need to remember who the real victim was (the woman) of this crime as they are generally taking the side of the rapist too much.

Good Morning America also made a special on the case where they were paying sympathy for the rapists.
I would comment on this, but whenever I find a link it says "not available in your location."

It"s also the community response, all of which condemned the woman.

I don"t even know how you can think this, obviously at least some people in the community spoke out against this. You are one of them. People have made YouTube responses and as shown above The Ed show was against it.

Article on media response where people got so angry over how Daisy Coleman was treated they attacked the entire town"s reputation. Quote "level of hatred and vitriol directed toward not just the alleged rapists and the prosecutor who dropped the charges but everyone in Maryville. There"s almost a lynch mob mentality in the comments on social media."

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
This is not a feminist movement, but it is sizable and against the rapists (extreme though it is).
TheSilentHorseman

Pro

Rebuttal #1: Hearsay evidence is occasionally a
problem when it comes to the proper administration of justice in terms of rape
cases, and I’d like to say that the criminal justice system in America and
Britain are probably not 100% effective in always determining proper
punishments and properly catching criminals whether the crime in question is
rape or any other crime. However, there are several rape cases, most
particularly in the United States, where there is an insurmountable amount of
evidence against perpetrators of rape, and still little is done to attribute
justice to those involved. In Steubenville, for example, the sentences that the
rapists received were incredibly light in comparison to the sort sentences that
rapists usually acquire. The coach who tried to help cover up the incident
never had any charges filed against him and even had an extension in his
contract. In Maryville, plenty of evidence was compiled against the alleged
rapist for a trial, but the charges were mysteriously dropped. So, to just
discount dropped rape cases as just being a result of hearsay evidence isn’t
entirely accurate, especially with cases that have gathered reasonable amounts
of evidence and are still disregarded.

Rebuttal #2: Okay, fair enough. A woman can
take certain precautions in order to prevent a crime from occurring or at least
defending herself when it is about to occur. However, the aspect of rape
culture comes in when a rape does occur
and the public responds to the rape. In many scenarios after a rape has
occurred, the public blames the victim of rape for the situation. Again, refer
to the evidence of the responses to the Steubenville rape. “You’re just a
loose, drunk slut.” This is a response among many cruel ones to the
Steubenville rape case. While certain precautions can be taken, when the crime
occurs, the blame does with great frequency shift against the victims. So,
regardless of whether or not a woman can or cannot be taught ways to minimize
chances of rape, the fact that the public responds against the woman proves the
existence of a culture that protects rapists.

Rebuttal #3: My opponent can’t really just
brush off the excuses rapists make when they have sex without consent as just
human nature if my opponent himself also agrees that these excuses are invalid.
At some point, my opponent agrees that the committing of these crimes has no
excuse. My opponent agrees that the people in question understand that it is a
wrong. “The point is that they just don't care enough to refrain from doing it.”
The fact that people commit rape, understand the evil of it, and still attempt to make excuses of it
reveals a sort of mentality that people have in this society: that rape is
excusable. It’s questionable if making excuses is human nature. Even if it is,
at the point where people try to make excuses for rape, it still shows the
mentality of society.

Rebuttal #4: True, every injustice requires
our attention regardless of how infrequent it is. However, when we’re trying to
understand the frequency of false rape cases within the context of the
prevalence of rape in a supposed rape culture, understanding how much false
rape claims affects the prevalence becomes important in understanding the
severity of rape culture if one does exists. Hence, I asked for an estimate of
how many false rape cases there are. While false rape claims are important to
address, to have the prevalence of false rape claims be at 5% or some low
number wouldn’t disprove the existence of a rape culture.

Rebuttal #5: I’ll try to find another link for
Good Morning America. The fact that the show actually had to point out that
people need to remember who the victim was only adds to my argument in the
sense that they acknowledge that the victim is receiving a lot of the blame.
So, this does also add to my argument.

Rebuttal #6: Outrage will always occur
whenever things like this happen. This is not to say that all people in the United
States will feel the same way or even the majority. This just says that there
were many who are very vocal about their outrage. When we consider the
community responses in Steubenville and Maryville, we can see that the
community responses were quite different. “The two players who are charged with
raping the girl, and the several other players who allegedly participated, are
surrounded in a protective bubble. Their fathers steadfastly stand by their
sons. Their coaches wonder what the girl might have been wearing and why she
got so drunk, suggesting it might have been a case of buyers’ remorse–as if she
wanted to pass out and be urinated on and have an iron rod shoved inside her,
but then perhaps thought better of it in the sober light of day. The police
apparently covered up the crime to protect the boys. And, of course, the
community rallied behind the boys, fearing that–gasp!–“their” football team
might have a dark cloud hanging over it.” http://msmagazine.com...

Debate Round No. 3
pontob

Con

1You say its occasionally a problem. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a rapist, you can go to jail, or you can ask for proof that you know they are unlikely to provide, in which case you go free. It is such an easy loophole which is available for any rape case defendant.
"there are several rape cases, most particularly in the United States, where there is an insurmountable amount of evidence against perpetrators of rape, and still little is done to attribute justice to those involved. "
Well, Richmond was sentenced to a minimum of one year in a juvenile correctional facility so clearly they thought of him as a minor. Minors often get lesser prison sentences than adults, I agree that the cut-off point was close enough to convict him harsher, but some people stand fast to the rules of law when it comes to prosecuting juveniles. When James Bugler died his two child killers got no prison sentence for the crime, I know there is a big difference between the ages of these two cases, but it still goes to show the way which age affects the severity of a prison sentence. In most of the cases you mention the perpetrators were close to the cut off age, so a court is going to take that into account. It is debatable whether this is fair, but despite being a poor excuse it is still the reality.

2evidence of the responses to the Steubenville rape. "You"re just a loose, drunk slut." This is a response among many cruel ones to the Steubenville rape case.
I can"t accept random example tweets as evidence of rape culture, the same way a group of communists living in the Scotland making tweets would not be substantial to convince me that there is a preference for communism in Scottish society. It is certainly not proof as I can give you a multitude of example tweets of any opinion under the sun. This is especially unconvincing when you look at the response to the crime such as the" justice for daisy event" which bought together a mass of supporters in favour of the victim and even outweighed the pro rapist supporters. I will elaborate on this event later.

3 My opponent can"t really just brush off the excuses rapists make when they have sex without consent as just human nature if my opponent himself also agrees that these excuses are invalid.
Actually I can do this, just because the reason behind an action isn"t satisfactory doesn"t mean it isn"t true. For example, some terrorists blow people up since they think they will get to heaven, we know this is no excuse to do this, yet it is still the cause whether we agree with it or not.

4 The fact that people commit rape, understand the evil of it, and still attempt to make excuses of it reveals a sort of mentality that people have in this society: that rape is excusable.
No, it is not rape that is overlooked, or excused it is empathy that has been left behind. In certain parts of every country there will be people who are brought up not to give a darn about other people. For example, there are many rapes in prison and the armed forces because people there learn to lose their empathy; after all you will be exploited if you convey empathy. Moreover, the kids in Steubenville were being trained to play football, a sport where they were encouraged by their coach and peers to beat the opposing teams. They are taught not to care about the others because if you are reluctant to not hit the opposing team with everything you"ve got then you are probably going to lose. Part of the game is making sure that you hurt them. The coach even wanted to get them off with rape to keep them in the team, this shows the extent to which their peers were willing to step on others just to win the game. Again, this is no excuse, but it is the real cause. I think the main problem is a society that encourages competition and victory at the expense of empathy. These boys were not brought up being told that rape is okay or not that bad, they were brought up with a lack of empathy for anyone who has what they want, whether that be a trophy, a possession or sex. It is widely accepted rape is about power more than sexual fulfilment. If our culture is a rape culture it must be actively trying to normalize rape, while in reality boys are doing this as a by-product of our competitive culture, where kids are taught to detach themselves from empathy as long as they can get the reward from overpowering others.
It"s questionable if making excuses is human nature. Even if it is, at the point where people try to make excuses for rape, it still shows the mentality of society.
Not at all, people can make excuses for murdering someone, for instance some people say they are mentally unstable when they are not when they kill a person. Still murder is not endorsed in our culture. That doesn"t mean killing someone is generally okay, in fact it doesn"t even mean that they think it is okay. There will never be a society where people will not make excuses for their actions, even when they know it is immoral. That is why I call it human nature, because it will always be a human problem despite societal involvement. This societal mentality is not specific to any one issue and also, we are taught not to do this is school anyway, showing that this human problem is still frowned upon even in light of the fact that we will never fully overcome it past minimising it a lot.
5 to have the prevalence of false rape claims be at 5% or some low number wouldn"t disprove the existence of a rape culture.
I never said that false rape claims would disprove rape culture; this is a straw man argument. I mentioned false rape claims at the start to illustrate its relevance in court. All fair courts have to consider that the victim is lying and when they cannot work around this argument they have to put their hands in the air and tell the truth, that they don"t have enough proof to discredit it. This is why many rape victims are left high and dry in the justice system, sadly circumstance favours the rapists, but it is not because of favouritism towards them.
The second time was in response to your statement:
" Nor does my opponent provide any evidence on the prevalence of false rape claims either."
To which I was trying to make clear that it was irrelevant to the topic to discuss the extent to which they exist as it only has to be possible that someone is lying for someone to use this argument in court. In reality false rape claims are extremely few and far between, but it is still an argument that can be used and often brings a victims argument to a halt as it is reasonable to expect proof that someone isn"t just lying.
6 The fact that the show actually had to point out that people need to remember who the victim was only adds to my argument in the sense that they acknowledge that the victim is receiving a lot of the blame.
I like to think that these shows and blogs speaking out against that station is proof that there isn"t a rape culture as they were so appalled by it. The response was considerable aside from this individual show anyway. Also, a lot of blame is not the same as a collective blame generally from society.

7. Outrage will always occur whenever things like this happen. This is not to say that all people in the United States will feel the same way or even the majority.
On the link I provided to the Washington post there is a video of campaigners of a justice4daisy rally where the spokesperson mentions early on that she is thankful for both the local attendance ( among which were some police officers and a significant portion of the Maryville community )and national attendance that they noticed across America. Moreover, she states that the nation has shown "solidarity" in this case. Wouldn"t you think that a campaigner on the side of Daisy Coleman would be quick to point out that the majority of America was against them if that was the case? After all surely something like that would be something worth striking out against or at least mentioning in passing. The reason she does not do this is because she knows that a high proportion of the response to this problem has been in favour of the victim and that to demonise the people for the actions of a minority is unfair.
"Their fathers steadfastly stand by their sons. Their coaches wonder what the girl might have been wearing and why she got so drunk, suggesting it might have been a case of buyers" remorse"
Is it really all that surprising that the fathers defended their sons? He probably held on to the hope that they were innocent more than the average person, even against the odds. The coach had something to lose by them being sent to prison (no team), again this is no excuse, but it is the reason behind his actions. There is no doubt in my mind that if that coach had other people on his team he would have left them for the wolves. Both the coach and the people who supported the boys are defending them because they are football players. They are brought up to idealise those who are powerful and brutal without needing to consider the morality against these men. This is the reason why you never see people defending a homeless bum for raping someone, because in their eyes he is a nobody so why should they care? The issue here is idolisation in society, where we assume one side before another, not because of them being a rapist, but because they are a hero in the eyes of others. Rape culture implies otherwise.
8. The police apparently covered up the crime to protect the boys.
That Is shameful, but let"s face it, the police force is easily corruptible. They have been known in certain areas to look away when it comes to drugs, destroy evidence in every kind of investigation you can think of and shoot unarmed civilians. These acts are generally considered abhorrent by society.
TheSilentHorseman

Pro

Rebuttal #1: Like I said, the criminal justice system isn’t perfect. No criminal justice institution in the United States, the United Kingdom, or the rest world goes without its imperfections. However, there’s a difference between being imperfect and being ineffective when it comes to dealing with certain crimes. In the country of Australia, for example, it’s mentioned that the criminal justice system is highly ineffective when dealing with rape cases. “One of Australia's leading forensic medical experts says the criminal justice system consistently fails sex crime victims with many deserving cases not reaching court.

Victoria's head of clinical forensic medicine, Associate Professor David Wells, said the adversarial system was incapable of dealing with rape cases that were often reduced to one word against another.

'There is something fundamentally wrong with the way we treat the majority of rape victims. Most never get their day in court and never get to hear the words, 'guilty as charged',' Dr Wells said.

'In the vast majority of cases the victim knows the accused and the prosecution goes nowhere.'

He said the intellectually and psychologically vulnerable were often victims of sex crimes but rarely received justice. 'The criminal justice system doesn't have a lot to offer these people.'

'I don't think we have come a long way in this area and we have to start thinking outside of the square.'

He said in cases involving obvious injuries and serial offenders the court system works well but that would be in no more than 10 per cent of reported cases. 'But we have to be honest that in most cases the system simply does not work.' Dr Wells, who will retire from his senior post at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine on Friday, said there should be a system of conciliation where cases that fall short of beyond reasonable doubt could be examined.”” [1]While I’m not entirely sure about the frequency to which my opponent’s scenario occurs, I don’t have a hard time believing it’s a problem. However, it’s not just how rapists are prosecuted, although the Steubenville and Maryville cases do show the problem with prosecution. Usually when minors at the age at which the football players in Steubenville commit a violent felony of that magnitude, they are prosecuted as adults. It is possible to try minors in states if the crimes they have committed are extreme enough and if they’re old enough to understand rational decisions. In Steubenville, this was the case. In Maryville, this was the case. In the case of Steubenville, the evidence is insurmountable—the Twitter messages, the video, the photographs, etcetera, and yet, only 1 year of prison. Then, there’s the way the criminal justice system deals with rape cases in both the United States and the United Kingdom. Only recently, a police officer was fired from his position for the way that he handled the case of a victim of sexual assault, asking inappropriate questions and otherwise sexually harassing her. [2]

Rebuttal #2: This isn’t just a random example tweet. Like I said, this is just one example of many tweets from across the country that all victimized the victim even further after the rape in Steubenville and buried sentiments for the victim. It’s not the only community response either. “Three Steubenville High School athletes became witnesses for the prosecution and testified against Mays and Richmond, their friends, at a probable cause hearing in October. The crime blogger and more than a dozen people who posted comments on her Web site have been sued by a Steubenville football player and his parents for defamation. The girl’s mother, in several brief interviews last month, said her family had received threats, so extra police officers have been patrolling her neighborhood. “The thing I found most disturbing about this is that there were other people around when this was going on,” William McCafferty, the Steubenville police chief, said of the events that unfolded. “Nobody had the morals to say, ‘Hey, stop it, that isn’t right.’…Some people at the party taunted her, chanted and cheered as a Steubenville High baseball player dared bystanders to urinate on her, one witness testified.” [3] Like I said, the tweets came in massive amounts across the country. In addition to the tweets were the instances of bullying against victims. Daisy Coleman, as she reported, was immensely bullied following her attempts to prosecute the perpetrators. If tweets don’t convince my opponent of our countries’ lax attitude toward rape, then perhaps surveys will. “During a poll of high school students, Jacqueline Goodchilds asked the following question: "Is it all right if a male holds a female down and physically forces her to have sex if ..."

Conditions Percentage of "yes" responses

MALES FEMALES

He spent a lot of money on her? 39% 12%

He is so turned on he thinks he can't stop? 36% 21%

She has had sexual intercourse with other guys? 39% 18%

She is stoned or drunk? 39% 18%

She lets him touch her above the waist? 39% 28%

She is going to and then changes her mind? 54% 31%

She has led him on? 54% 26%

She gets him excited sexually? 51% 42%

They have dated for a long time? 43% 32%” [4] The link I provided also provides insight on another study where date rape was considered permissible as well.

Rebuttal #3: These boys were not brought up being told that rape is okay or not that bad, they were brought up with a lack of empathy for anyone who has what they want, whether that be a trophy, a possession or sex.It is widely accepted rape is about power more than sexual fulfillment. If our culture is a rape culture it must be actively trying to normalize rape, while in reality boys are doing this as a by-product of our competitive culture, where kids are taught to detach themselves from empathy as long as they can get the reward from overpowering others. ” No one said that rape culture can’t be a by-product. In fact, a condition where someone disregards the safety and feelings of a woman because the objective is to get sex out of her as a result of a cultural proclivity is the basic epitome of rape culture. My opponent will try to argue that rape is not being normalized, but considering that this is a by-product of the culture that my opponent has mentioned lacks empathy anyways and considering the evidence I have posted previously, one can see that there is even some attempt to normalize rape. The normalization of rape has occurred in the media repeatedly. My opponent’s references to these movements to try to bring justice to rape victims are really attempts to break the culture my opponent has mentioned. These anti-rape movements that my opponent has mentioned all acknowledge the existence of a rape culture. In providing a rationalization as to why these boys committed rape, my opponent just provided the very thing that distinguishes rape culture: selfish eschewing of empathy for women in order to acquire power or sex as a result of the cultural mindset. So really, my opponent has proven my case for me. My opponent continues to try to rationalize the motives that the people in the community may have had to protect rapists, but the fact that they tried to protect them at all even while acknowledging they committed a rape is evidence that a community is willing to defend rapists and blame victims. He continually says there is no excuse for what they have done (which I agree), but regardless of what reasons they had, the ultimate fact is that they took the side of the rapists. In the end, that’s what rape culture comes to: people taking the side of the rapists.

[References in comment section]

Debate Round No. 4
pontob

Con

-Ending argument
-What I am trying to illustrate here is that this normalization of rape that you have pointed out is mostly happening when people idealise someone. Therefor no matter what they do they will be defended for it. For instance Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a known terrorist, but because he was good looking he gained a significant fan base that tried to let him off. Neither the U.K nor the U.S think in general that terrorism is something that can be overlooked, but since he could gather sympathy from his followers the problem emerged. In essence I"m arguing that culture does not deem rape as a lesser crime than it should otherwise, it all hinges on who is saying it, and if they are popular enough they have the chance to get off with anything. Rape culture deems that it is because the crime was rape, that they are being defended when in reality, it is because of their image that they are being defended.
-Rape culture also is to do with the objectification of women"s bodies according to you. I don"t really see the problem with a bit of objectification, after all both sexes do it. Also, objectification is even necessary in some places. For example, if you were to go for a job, they only see you as a worker; they shouldn"t have to inspect all of your character. The same goes in relationships, some people only want sex and it is perfectly fine to let people objectify each other if both parties are happy with it. (Obviously when rape comes into the equation it is a different story.) On an advert, the advertisers only see these women as a tool to increase sales, and if she is being paid to do this she can allow herself to be objectified all she wants. There is nothing in these adverts that say that women are only to be objectified; it is just these certain types of women.

-Rape culture states that violence against women is normalised and excused, but men are treated as despicable if they hit a woman. If a woman slaps a man society sees no harm done, but if a man hits a woman then those around him almost always turn on him. Whether you think this is fair or not, it clearly shows that society deems violence against women as deplorable. Another example of this is harassment. If a woman makes degrading remarks to a man in the workplace it is taken much less seriously than when a woman is being degraded. This is because our culture is set up so that women are defended far more than men when they are hit or harassed, therefore the assertion that their suffering is downplayed by men is wrong.

-Often when the jury cannot find evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone of being guilty, then they have to abandon the accusation as they need proof. Doing this is not supporting, or defending the rapist. It is an unfortunate fact of life that by abandoning the case the rapist is better off, but it is still the moral thing to do if you don"t have enough evidence to go on. You must accept all sides to a story, no matter the probability. This flies in the face of arguments that courts overall favour the rapists because charges are dropped.
-
-Rape is considered worse than murder in the media. Rape cases given more precedence than murder on the news and T.V shows almost never have a sympathetic side to a rapist. The only time I can think of sympathy conveyed about a rapist on TV was on Cracker, where you only felt sorry for him when he killed himself in remorse and for the rest of the series he is conveyed as a dislikeable creep. If our culture thought rape was excusable to a degree then shows would not feel the need to do this. In fact they would probably use it as a way to increase drama.
-Large movements have spawned in most western countries against rape and in favour of the victims. Contrary to what you say in your rebuttal, not all of these groups hold fast to the idea of rape culture. The video I have referred to in the Daisy Coleman case made no reference to rape culture, either showing that they don"t agree with it, or that it is debatable. In my eyes it defiantly is. Aside from the widespread support over the internet, there have been rallies and T.V shows against rape culture ( you mentioned the Ed Show and I know the BBC to have done this).
-Violence is sexualised in our society because there are a lot of people out there who are into the rough stuff. Telling someone tie you down and have sex with you is not rape. Though there are a lot of women out there who don"t like the concept of being dominated at all, there are many who are thrilled with the idea. If people like the idea of violent sex then that is their choice.
TheSilentHorseman

Pro


My final arguments will bring some summarizing points against my opponent’s final arguments and explain why I should be the winner of this debate.



Voters #1: My opponent continues to bring up that one of the largest classifying characteristics of a rape culture is the normalization of rape, and argues that because rape is considered to be illicit still in our society, our society then does not live in a rape culture. However, if the judges look through the evidence I provided about high school students and their opinions of rape, as well as the community responses against the rape victims in Steubenville and Maryville as well as a variety of different cases, you will see that the community response to rape is one where the victim continually receives the blame and that people believe that forcibly engaging women into sexual intercourse is acceptable. With my evidence, I’ve proven that a rape culture is existent, even at some level in the societies of the US and the UK.



Voters #2: In terms of the other aspects of rape culture, while my opponent denies the existence of rape culture, he repeatedly proves the occurrence of the characteristics of rape culture. My opponent states that we live in a culture where we are taught a lack of empathy for people who have what we want, including people who have the sexual intercourse that we want, and that we are taught to forcibly take from them what we want. Albeit a bit general, this type of culture is the very one that constructs the foundation of rape culture: People are taught to take [something] from [someone] without any consideration of [someone’s] feelings. This is the formula of rape culture, and my opponent proves the precedent of rape culture. Also, he states that rape culture doesn’t exist, just a culture where people are protected for the image they have in the community, including those who have committed rape. That’s rape culture in a nutshell: protecting someone from receiving the punishment of rape because of their image regardless of the charges against him. In order to try to show that our culture is not a rape culture, my opponent brings up many depictions of men hitting women or harassing women as being demonized in general, but that’s not applicable to all places or to all groups of people. If the judges look at Steubenville, the football players at the party actually urged the rapists to continue their acts on the drunken victim.


Debate Round No. 5
No votes have been placed for this debate.