The Instigator
AlphaGama
Pro (for)
The Contender
distraff
Con (against)

Do you believe in God?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/20/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 480 times Debate No: 96282
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

AlphaGama

Pro

God is an omnipotent spirit. He knows all, and see all. God created our world and have us life as a gift from his love. Even though our ancestor Adam and Eve ate the Tree of Knowledge Sin corrupted human nature. Jesus the Son of God Sacrificed himself to save all of us. It gave us the Holy Spirit which is like our Moral Compass. Before that we had no compass inside us, without it we would be cruel and rude to everyone. Thanks to God he gave us free will to give everybody a chance to go to heaven. I recommend my opponent to be an Atheist.
distraff

Con

There is a complete lack of evidence for the Christian God and he is one out of many mythologies. It makes no sense to believe things without evidence and if you did this in your day to day life you would be in big trouble. It is ridiculous to give Adam and Eve a moral choice to eat the fruit when they didn't have a knowledge of good and evil and then punish all of humanity for their mistake.

As for Jesus, if I raped a child and my mother volunteered to take my punishment that would never be accepted because only I can be punished for my mistakes so the atonement makes no sense. Eternal torment in hell makes no sense because finite crimes do not deserve eternal torment.

Why doesn't God come by for dinner and be there like any good father would? Hiding from humanity only confuses rational people who don't want to believe based only on faith or believe in a different faith. It is totally irrational to send people to hell for not believing because they have not heard of Christianity, have not been convincingly introduced to it, sincerely have faith in another religion, or don't believe for rational reasons. Punishing disbelief is illogical because believing something for honest reasons doesn't make you a bad person.

Different Christians believe different things and I am addressing the most common beliefs I have heard. If you don't believe in all of them that is ok, I can address the ones you do believe in.
Debate Round No. 1
AlphaGama

Pro

God made us man in his image. God himself is good and truth but, Sins corrupts us making man do horrible things in the world. God made himself known for everyone through people. Its the atheist who are stubborn and refuse to believe in God. Right now history have some dark ages but, for million years people manage to get out of it. You see the world is corrupt, and now your human nature is corrupted. But, Jesus sacrificed himself to give ourselves the feeling of common sense. When the apple of knowledge was eaten sin came in we got confused fast by good and evil. We wouldn't do cruel things if Sin is horrible and repulsive but, Sin seems pleasurable like revenge or stealing. Hitler is wrong with his "logic" about torturing Jews and Hitler thinks it's right, but God said there is a true Right or Wrong action. As long we have faith in God and know what the Sins are and avoid temptation we will be saved
distraff

Con

> God made us man in his image. God himself is good and truth but, Sins corrupts us making man do horrible things in the world.

That isn't entirely true. Some people have done horrible things, but many ordinary people have lived mostly decent lives and while they have imperfections they are overall decent people.

> God made himself known for everyone through people.

I don't know what this means at all. In what way is he making himself known through people? I need clear arguments to be able to respond to them or else I am guessing what you really mean. How are we supposed to know it is God making himself known when we are talking to people?

Until then you have not sufficiently addressed the problem of why God chooses to not physically or verbally communicate with his children. It is a father's natural role to do this with their children and is very beneficial for this children so why doesn't he do this?

> Its the atheist who are stubborn and refuse to believe in God.

In order to believe in God we need know God is real first. How can we know the Christian God is real? In order for you to uphold your case that we should believe in the Christian God you must first show that he is real. Good people can refuse to believe in the Christian God because they see no reason God is real and are non-religious or believe in another religion they were taught to have faith in. It is irrational to eternally punish good people even if they are genuinely got the wrong religion. Also many people have not even heard of the Christian God or barely heard about him. What happens to them?

> Right now history have some dark ages but, for million years people manage to get out of it. You see the world is corrupt, and now your human nature is corrupted.

We are corrupt in that we are imperfect but there are many awesome people in my life and although they are not perfect they are amazing people. It makes so sense to punish small finite crimes with infinite punishment. That would be like sentencing me to life in prison for speeding.

> But, Jesus sacrificed himself to give ourselves the feeling of common sense.

I addressed this one already. How can someone like Jesus be punished for your crimes when they did not commit them? If I raped a little girl would it be logical for me to go free if my mother takes the punishment? My crimes inherently belong to me therefore the punishment can't be transferred to someone else even voluntarily. Having someone be punishment is an insult to the loved ones of the victim and doesn't discourage the crime as much as punishing the criminal.

Also dying for our sins isn't really a punishment because during those three days Jesus just transferred back to his infinite form so it was really an upgrade. He later ascended into heaven which was seen as a good thing but is basically the same thing that happened when he "died."

> When the apple of knowledge was eaten sin came in we got confused fast by good and evil.

Well it looks like Adam and Eve were confused even before eating the fruit because the Devil successfully lured them into disobeying God so this tree was certainly not the origin of this confusion. Also in the last round I argued that it makes no sense to test Adam and Eve with a choice of good and evil of eating that fruit when they didn't have a knowledge of good and evil to begin with and were not capable of making good moral choices. It also doesn't make sense to punish all humanity for their sin with the fall.

> As long we have faith in God and know what the Sins are and avoid temptation we will be saved

It was never mentioned why we should have faith or gave a good definition of faith because different people define it differently. Why not instead only believe in Christianity if you know the Christian God is real? If you don't know then you could easily be believing in the wrong religion.
Debate Round No. 2
AlphaGama

Pro

Sin is attractive and that is why our world is a mess. Sin has consequences and the ultimate justice is God. You say they're not enough facts to support the existence of God. The universe was created in Gods image you see you can't just shake a bucket of food ingredients and come out a cake. 1+1 is always 2 because of the design God made, can you explain why is math is the way it is? It has a design made by God. Hell isn't the fiery hell as we imagine its isolation from God. God gave us a chance be with him in heaven and be forever happy or be isolated forever in hell, God doesn't force us he gives us a chance to choose. If you read the bible Moses split the Red Sea for a safe travel. The Egyptians on chariots chased the Islams but, the ocean hit the chariots and stop the chase for good. Now we have evidence of chariots in the Red Sea. Miracles is God's way of letting us know that he is here with us. You say God hides from us, no we hid from God. We refused to believe in God but, God gave us a chance to repent and come to him. When Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree they hid in shame from God. God is real but, you are way too stubborn, this is what faith is. In history every villain falls because evil wins if good doesn't do anything God is good he is what define good. That is why hell is this fiery pit because we chose to not go to him.
distraff

Con

>The universe was created in Gods image you see you can't just shake a bucket of food ingredients and come out a cake.

This at best this only proves a designer but does not show the Christian God exist who you have been arguing for this entire debate. If design is true, then the question remains of where the complexity in the designer came from. If he did not come from design then complexity doesn"t have to come from design.

Complexity does not mean design. The complexity in life evolved from a common ancestor through evolution. Some examples of evolution are bacteria that evolved to eat nylon, bacteria that evolved to be multicellular, and the goatsbeard plant that evolve two new species that can"t reproduce with the old.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

We have ordered transitional fossils for fish-land, mammal, bird, whale, horse, and human evolution. We found dozens of transitionals between humans and apes like over a dozen Australopith and Homo species.

There is genetic evidence as well like 200,000 retrovirus sequences in humans DNA that 99% match in humans and apes which is nearly impossible if they were separately inserted in humans and apes and are too many to have been inserted before the last common ancestor Noah.
http://www.evolutionarymodel.com...

We also have strong evidence for stars and planets being formed by gravity and have even seen star being formed in distant Nebula. We also have strong evidence for the big bang from the predicted background radiation, predicted element distribution of stars, and all stars moving away from each other uniformly.
http://scitechdaily.com...

One way to get improbable things without design is to try them many many times. Flipping 100 heads in a row is bound to happen if it is tried trillions of times. For example the earth is finely tuned for life but there are countless planets so the odds are good for one that supports life. There are numerous forces, environments, and chemical reactions, and the odds are good we will find at least one combination that can produce complexity like natural selection and mutations.

>Miracles is God's way of letting us know that he is here with us.

You provided no examples of confirmed miracles. There are miracles claimed by just about every religion and are part of a group of objectively unverified claims like UFO sightings, UFO abductions, elf sightings, alternative medicine cures for difficult diseases, bigfoot, psychics, etc. In fact there are fraudsters in the South who trick people into believing that they are faith healers and are paid big bucks for supposed healings.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I claimed that there was a cat in my back yard you would probably just believe me. If I claimed there was a UFO in my yard you would want to see it, pictures wouldn"t be enough. The same goes for religion. Simply because something isn"t explained yet doesn"t mean God did it.

>Now we have evidence of chariots in the Red Sea.

This is a claim from Ron Wyatt who supposedly discovered a chariot wheel in the red sea in the 1970s and claimed to have it in his possession although for some reason its whereabouts cannot be accounted for and we only have a questionable picture. It was so covered in coral that it could have easily been a coral as they are known to make all sorts of weird shapes. We see clouds shaped like people, the face of Jesus on a piece of toast, so why not a coral that looks like a wheel?
http://www.wnd.com...

Plus, chariots were very common back then kind of like guns today and it is reasonable we would find a random wheel at the bottom of the sea. It could have been a different kind of wheel because it is so obscured by the coral.

>1+1 is always 2 because of the design God made, can you explain why is math is the way it is? It has a design made by God.

"One" is just our word for a single object all alone. "Two" is just the word for "One" object and another "One" together. We don"t need God for this. To most people math is logical like I explained and is uncreated. How can one object and one object be anything but two objects? No evidence has been shown that it is even possible for a person to create math.
And even if this was a huge mystery then that doesn"t mean that God did it, it just means that it is a mystery.

>God is real but, you are way too stubborn, this is what faith is.
>You say God hides from us, no we hid from God.

You have failed to justify believing in the Christian God. I am not being stubborn, I am being rational. And you did not provide a definition of faith and instead called me stubborn. I have shown in the last round that God is definitely hiding as he never visits or talks to us. I also showed that evidence the Christian God is true is lacking.

> Hell isn't the fiery hell as we imagine its isolation from God.

I never claimed that hell was fiery only that it was eternal punishment and isn"t required for my arguments but now I will make that claim. Supposedly Jesus atoned for our sins and took our punishment on himself and part of that punishment was being tortured and put into physical pain, and those who deny him aren"t covered, so torture will be part of their punishment in hell.

Hell is also described as a blazing furnace, a place of everlasting destruction and Jude 1:7 even says that the fire that God rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the eternal torment in hell. So how is it right to torture good people simply for not irrationally believing in a God who refused to show himself to his own children?

You have provided no reason why hell is only a place of isolation from God. How is that so bad anyway? Many people live without God in their daily lives and would adjust to such a life in hell. Not much of a punishment.

>Sin has consequences and the ultimate justice is God.

You never responded to my arguments that finite sins don"t deserve eternal punishment (especially eternal torture).

>We refused to believe in God but, God gave us a chance to repent and come to him.

First off you never addressed my arguments that the atonement makes no sense and death wasn"t even a good punishment for Jesus. Also you never properly addressed my argument of against belief being a requirement for heaven and just repeated your claims.

>When Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree they hid in shame from God.

You never responded to my arguments that it is unreasonable to test Adam and Eve with the fruit, and unfair to punish all of us for their mistakes.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GrimlyF 1 month ago
GrimlyF
Missmedic.You are making me all warm and metaphysical.You write as though the Ego is an entity in and of itself.It isn't.The Ego has no control over ANY of the things you believe.When you were a child your burgeoning Ego accepted the existence of Fairies and ogres and things that go bump in the night.You incorporated them into your childish Ego as a part of you reality.You MAKE your Ego.It is you who imprints you every like/dislike on YOUR SELF. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT EGO IS.A complete you in all your uniqueness because ONLY YOU HAVE THAT PRECISE IMPRINT OF YOUR LIFE.Your Ego won't make you a saint or a sinner because they are the result of conscious decisions and the Ego is part of your subconscious.
Posted by missmedic 1 month ago
missmedic
Grimly . I beg to differ,beliefs and faiths do not establish "truths" or facts. Between ignorance and knowledge you have the uncertainties about the world, and the best way to handle uncertainties involves thinking in terms of probabilities. So what use does belief have? The ego is obsessed with beliefs, attaches itself to them, and so fashions an identity around them. This gives it a sense of self and feeds its desire for certainty, security. Religious certainty is egocentric.
Your religious certainty rests not on evidence but on the personal decision to accept without question and without evidence. Faith is by definition the decision to accept without empirical evidence that something as true. In fact, it"s not just a decision. It"s a commitment to live one"s life based on the conviction that these unproven beliefs are true.
egocentric; 1. having or regarding the self or the individual as the center of all things
2. having little or no regard for interests, beliefs, or attitudes other than one's own; self-centered

http://www.criticalthinking.org...
http://westsidetoastmasters.com...
Posted by distraff 1 month ago
distraff
> Con, show me the evidence that it makes "no sense" to believe things without evidence and then show me the evidence you would be in "big trouble" to go through everyday life doing this.....

Easy, picking your career.
Posted by GrimlyF 1 month ago
GrimlyF
missmedic.What you are describing is not solipsism but the sense of self that makes you unique.What YOU believe,what YOU sense to be true.The things you sense,that you KNOW to be so does not cut you off from the mainstream.It is called the Ego and is what gives your character a certain, unique to you,view of life but even in your uniqueness you are part of the great gestalt that is humanity.
Posted by skipsaweirdo 1 month ago
skipsaweirdo
Con, show me the evidence that it makes "no sense" to believe things without evidence and then show me the evidence you would be in "big trouble" to go through everyday life doing this.....
Posted by missmedic 1 month ago
missmedic
Many people misunderstand what constitutes belief and what does not. For many, belief has so infiltrated their minds, that everything perceived or thought incorporates a belief for them, including all of their knowledge and experience. This hierarchical, top-down, approach, in effect, puts such a person entirely within a world of solipsistic reasoning. Why? Because all thoughts describe a belief for them and since beliefs only occur within the mind, every belief refers to the self. This type of thinking is egoistic.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com...
Posted by GrimlyF 1 month ago
GrimlyF
CANIS. I beg to differ.Belief IS what you know.Knowing IS what you believe.In every debate on religion I have taken the pro side on I have challenged my opponent to disprove my belief.Of course they can't because my KNOWING the truth makes my BELIEF an unscaleable wall.I refute all rational,scientific "proof" because my unshakeable belief makes such things impssible.After all we are told God made the dinosaur fossils as a cosmic joke.
Posted by canis 1 month ago
canis
Believe is what you can not possible know. knowing is what you can not possible believe.
Posted by distraff 1 month ago
distraff
@HGA I don't see how Abraham's sacrifice of his son is comparable to God inexplicably being completely physically absent from his children's lives. There is no reason for him to do this. In fact he is so absent that most people are not Christian and many have not even heard about it or presented in a way that would make them any more interested in joining than you would to become a Hindu. And then why does he then punish his children with eternal torment when of course most of them are going to end up believing something else because they have never even seen or heard him before.
Posted by HGA 1 month ago
HGA
@distraff In reply to your recent comment, that's a very limited definition of love. Back in the Old Testament, Abraham loved his son, but would sacrifice him for a greater purpose. I suppose that event may have been foreshadowing.

Best of luck to both sides in this debate.
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