Do you burn forever in hell?
Many think God sadistic and cruel for punishing his beloved creations for all eternity, and think, "If this is what God is like, then I hate Him!" But this is not the portrait the Bible paints, and it is sad that so few know that God is not this way. That your friends who aren't saved and have passed, are not burning in hell as you read. I will get to the subject of the state of the dead in another guide, hopefully I finish it soon and can join it to this one. Until then, here are some verses to support the punishment of sin being death.
Note: All verses are from the King James Version Holy Bible, the most original Bible out there. The italicizing and underlining are my doing, but other than that I haven't altered any one of these verses. But don't take my word for it, please look them up yourself J
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John 3:16 For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth it shall die
(Some say that your body dies, but your soul will live forever in heaven or hell, this obviously is not true)
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague that shall smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Ezekiel 18:26-27 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
(This is the most cut and dry statement against once-saved-always-saved I think God could come up with)
Isaiah 50:9-10 Behold, the Lord God will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? (10) They all shall wax old like a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Ezekiel 28:17-19 (Speaking of Satan) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(Satan won't rule hell, for he himself shall be no more)
Isaiah 51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
(Their punishment won't be forever, but our reward, His salvation, is forever!)
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, as I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(God has no pleasure that in the end times he will destroy sin and sinners, but it must be done)
Matthew 10:28 (Words of Jesus himself) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(BOTH soul and body are DESTROYED in hell. Words of Jesus himself)
Isaiah 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforted you: who art thou, that shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(We which are alive and remain, which implies that all others are dead and gone)
Revelation 20:9 and they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(Earth, and the sinners upon her, shall be burned up) (There's nothing secret about this rapture, it's LOUD!)
Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.
Luke 13: 3 and 5 say this same thing (Words of Jesus by the way) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(That says it all, the words of Jesus himself, and they are pretty clear)
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers a among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 8:13 for if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(God wishes for ALL to come to him, and not perish)
Philippians 3:17-19 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (18) (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: (19) Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Psalms 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Job 21:17-20 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! And how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger. (18) They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. (19) God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. (20) His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Ezekiel 33:13-15 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live, if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hat committed, he shall die for it. (14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; (15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(Another great answer for once-saved-always-saved again)
Ezekiel 33:18-19 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. (19) But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Proverbs 18:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Job 4:8-9 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. (9) By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 6:18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
Job 18:5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
Job 18:17 His rememberance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name in the street.
Psalms 1:6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psalms 37:1-2 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. (2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
(This isn't death on earth he's talking about, it's when the wicked are in the presence of God)
Psalms 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a-whoring from thee.
Psalms 92:7-9 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: (8) But thou, Lord, art most high for evermore. (9) For, lo, thine enemies, O Lord, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.
(Wicked will be destroyed forever in the end times when God says they will flourish)
Psalms 112:9-10 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour. (10) The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
(The lake of fire will melt them)
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish. Proverbs 21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. John 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (Jesus died for us so that we wouldn't perish, not so we wouldn't burn forever) John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (We have eternal life, sinners don't. And why would God specify that we won't perish, if no one perishes?) 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceiveableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (Those who aren't saved perish) Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed. Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. (This is obviously talking about the end of the world, and it is called the day of death)
Wow, think of God up in heaven with a thesaurus, trying to let us know that sinners will perish. He uses, Perish, No more, Destroyed, Consumed, Eaten away, Melteth, Consume away, Burned up, Cut down as grass, Wither away, Stubble, Chaff in the wind, Ashes, and the most convincing argument of them all, they shall die. How many more adjectives could God use?
These verses are only a few of the many verses stating that sinners will perish in fire. I'll add more soon!
Thought Provoking Questions
If the punishment of sinners is burning forever in hell…Then Jesus didn't pay the full price!
Jesus came to pay the penalty of our sins, and if the penalty is burning forever in hell, then Jesus should be there, shouldn't he?
God said he is going to wipe sin out of the universe. But if sinners are burning forever in hell, then sin is still alive and festering!
Genesis 3:22-23 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and eat, and live for ever. (23) Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God says here that sinful man cannot be allowed to live forever. God does not want to IMMORTALIZE sinners!
We all agree that God has such an indescribable love that no man can comprehend. And we are his children.
Could you punish any one of your children, even if they were utterly terrible, forever? Then how do we expect this God with such unimaginable love to? Many say he has to do it. But he doesn't, that's putting God in a box and telling him what he can and cannot do. At the beginning of time God had to decide how he would punish sinners. He could eradicate them from the universe in the end of the world, or burn them forever…which do you think he chose?
God is a just God. He is a fair God. So lets say Bert was a terrible sinner who died in 2,300 B.C. Then Bob does the exact same sins, and dies in 2012 A.D. Bob gets punished 1,000s of years more, and that's not fair. Even in the scale of eternity, Bert will forever burn longer than Bob. Or worse, a 13 year old kid in 2,300 B.C. is told about Christ, but he doesn't believe, and he lives a pretty normal life, stole once or twice. He dies. And now he's going to burn 1,000s of years longer than Hitler!
I have a lot more contradictory questions that I will present in the state of the dead segment.
Confusing Verses About Hell Explained
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you look at a Biblical concordance, you can find that the definition of forever is: Age lasting, Perpetual, and until the end of a man's life. In 1 Samuel 1:22-28 Hannah gives Samuel to live at the temple forever. In Exodus a servant after 7 years who chose to stay with his master was to be his master's forever. Many times in the Bible forever is used meaning until the end of life. 56 times in fact, the Bible uses the word forever, reffering to things that have already passed. So forever can also be read as "Till the end of his life"
On the note of "Day and night" I believe that some sinners will burn longer than others, we find that evidence in Luke 12:43-48 (Words of Jesus) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (44) Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. (45) But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; (46) The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask more.
(This verse is another one of Jesus' many brilliant stories that stated a point. The point can easily be seen here, that those who are given much, much is required of them. So to apply that to today, those who have been shown the truth of his word, or know what they are doing is wrong, shall have a longer punishment. Those who know not that what they are doing is wrong, shall have a punishment, shorter in duration. So to finally get to the point of all that, just because Satan will burn "Day and night" doesn't mean that it's forever, but that the punishment he is worthy of as being the deceiver of the world, will last for a long time.
So this verse can be read as- Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented days and nights until he perishes. (I italicized the changes)
Plus we can look at what is said of Satan's demise in Ezekiel 28:17-19 in the scriptures listed previously.
Luke 3:17 (John speaking of Jesus) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Now this verse is fairly easy to explain. All it says is the fire is unquenchable, not that it will burn forever, or that the contents will burn forever. Think about it, if the fire was quenchable, Satan would quench it!
All it means is that no one can put it out but God. We're not going to be in hell with fire extuinguishers!
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
First off, it doesn't say that the punishment is everlasting, just the fire. It doesn't say depart from me into everlasting torment. So that's the first point.
Second point. Jude:7 (Don't need the first part, because there's only one book in Jude) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(So Sodom and Gomorrha were burnt with eternal fire too! And were an example of what will happen in the end times…but isn't it put out? Let's find out!)
2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.
(So here we find that it was turned to ashes and was an example of what will happen to sinners. And are the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha still alive and burning today? Here we find that the answer is "No")
So the fire isn't everlasting in it's duration, but in it's effect J
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now notice here that Jesus says "everlasting punishment" for sinners, but "life eternal" for the saved. So he is making a definite distinction between the punishment of the wicked, and the eternal life of the righteous. Don't you think he would have said "eternal punishment", and "eternal life", if both meant forever? Or "everlasting punishment" and "everlasting life" if both referred to living forever? But they're different!
Another thing to note is that it is everlasting punishment, not everlasting punishing.
The punishment is everlasting, as in it will last forever, the punishment is final. It is "The second death" there is no resurrection from it.
I am a bit confused as to how your points are meant to support your argument. You stated, in your first paragraph, that the Biblical verses you have provided are meant to "support the punishment of sin being death." Unless I am mistaken, the debate at hand deals with whether or not Hell is an eternal state—not whether or not death is the ultimate punishment for sin.
You then went on to make the claim (while neglecting to back it up with evidence) that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is "the most original Bible out there," which is entirely inaccurate. An even older documented translation of the original Hebrew Bible (in comparison to the King James Version) is the Septuagint (1), which was transcribed long before the King James Version was. While the verses you have referred to are accurate in context, your claim that their origin is "the most original" is a fallacy.
After your cited Biblical verses, you continued to support your off-topic claim that the punishment of sin is death. Since this is not the topic being debated, I will not present retorting arguments and will instead continue to the portion of your argument that does pertain to our current debate.
Now for the topic being debated: "Do you burn forever in Hell?"
I must say, you bring up an extremely good point by posing the idea that Jesus did not "pay the full price" for man's sins; kudos for that argument. I would like to point out, however, that Jesus died for man's sins—he did not sin. He died for the purpose of asking God to forgive humans for their sins, and it has been frequently mentioned in the Bible that one will not be sent to Hell if they ask for forgiveness. Since Jesus asked for forgiveness, there is no reason He would be sent to Hell rather than Heaven. 1 John 1:9 (KJV) states that: "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Because Jesus asked God to forgive the sins of those He was sacrificing his life for, it is illogical to believe He would be sent to Hell.
You then go on to make the claim that "we all agree" that God has an indescribable love for mankind that no human can comprehend. I must say, it is quite bold of you to assume that every member of the human species believes in God, let alone that He loves us. I aim to keep all personal opinions out of my debates, however making the assumption that all humans believe in a higher power is, in short, a flawed way of thinking.
The question of whether or not I could punish my child for eternity is irrelevant. My morals may differ immensely from your morals, and both of our morals are bound to differ from the morals possessed by the God portrayed in the Holy Bible. The question of whether or not Hell is eternal cannot be supported either way by citing morals or fairness; only evidence drawn from the historical Christian Faith and the Holy Bible.
Now, you made the point that "forever," when used in Biblical books, does not necessarily mean "eternity." You implied that "forever" meant, in this case, until the end of one's life. If this is the case, the word "forever" could not be used to describe Hell at all because it is an afterlife state.
Matthew 18:8 (KJV) states that…"wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire." Throughout the Holy Bible, it is repeatedly implied that Hell is "everlasting fire," or "eternal fire." Although you made the point that "eternal" does not necessarily mean forever in Biblical terms, I retorted with the statement that Hell is an afterlife; so the variation of the word "eternal" obviously cannot apply in this case.
Again, I thank you very much for this debate, and I wish you the best of luck in your response in Round 2.
So thank-you :)
I realize I should totally have rewritten my beginning statement. Here is what I believe: I believe that as spoken of in
2 Peter 2:3
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
I believe that the wicked are reserved in the grave to the day of judgment (Which is a whole nother arguement)
I believe that at the end of the world just as written in Revelation chapter 20
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (I believe this to be the punishment of sinners, this fire devours them, killing them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (The second death. I believe if you're only born once, you die twice, but if your born twice, you die once)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So I believe that you don't burn forever in hell, but I do believe in a hell, I believe that sinners die in hell.
And you have my deapest apologies regarding the King James version thing. I forgot I had that in there, and I really must remove it. All I meant to state was that I was using a real Bible, and not a heavily changed or fake Bible. Thank-you for calling that mistake to me, and once again I apologize :)
You say Jesus asked for forgiveness for our sins, and that those he died for weretherefore already forgiven of their sins and weren't on a "Highway to Hell" so to speak. Then why would he pay the penalty for the sins of someone who's sins were already payed for? Do you get where I'm coming from on this side? I actually believe that is unanswerable, and that Jesus paid the penalty of our sins, which is death. We all die, even the saved, so what death did he die for? The second death I believe is the one he died for.
Another thing you found that I messed up on was the "We all agree that God has indescribeable love" This all is an exerpt from a book I'm writing, and I meant it to be read by those who knew God already, just not neccesarily some of the details of the Bible. And I thank-you for pointing that out, as I agree with you that even the saved don't all agree on that, so I will now support why I believe that with these verses:
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
(God loves event the sinners)
Psalm 130:7 – … put your hope in the LORD, for with the LORD is unfailing love and with him is full redemption.
Psalm 33:5 – The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.
1 John 4:17-19 Love has been perfected among us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us.
(God loves all of us, and he did it first.)
I believe that most of us will agree that we are called God's children, I don't even think I have to list all the verses supporting that (Tell me if you want me to though)
I also understand how some morals will differ from others, but after looking over the verses showing God's love, and we are his children. I just don't think he would punish someone forever. Is the point of punishment not to teach someone a lesson so they can do it better next time? The idea of eternal punishment really contradicts itself, as punishment is meant to teach you a lesson so you won't do it again. I believe that God kills sinners with the second death. No more sin, no more punishment.
Now when I said that forever doensn't always mean forever, I'm speaking of not the duration of hell, but man's life in hell. So I'm describing that man will burn in hell "Until the end of his life" not that hell will last til the end of it's life.
Here are the reasons I believe that hell will end and not go on forever.
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
So the wicked shall receive their punishment on earth. I think we agree that hell is the punishment of sinners. So hell will be on earth in the end times.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(The earth and sinners therein, and hell, will be burned up)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(The old earth and heavens passed away, including sinners and hell)
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(How can the former not come to mind if we are exploring the universe and see hell with sinners in it burning?)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(How can there be no more sorrow if we see loved ones burning in hell?)
Once again, thank-you so much for you knowledge and kindness :)
Thank you very much for your well thought-out response! I appreciate your willingness to consider other points and cooperate when it comes to blurred terms and concepts. I would like to make it clear that I am speaking of Biblical “evidence” in a strictly theoretical manner. By no means am I suggesting that the occurrences I cite are factual, however—due to the fact that our very debate is purely theoretical and based on Biblical accounts—I am speaking of them as theoretical fact and am considering Biblical scripture to be theoretical “evidence.”
Now, I’d like to ask that we keep personal views that do not pertain to this debate (i.e., whether we are loved by a Higher Power, whether we are the children of a Higher Power, etc.) to ourselves because it has become quite evident that we possess extremely conflicting views on such topics. We are debating whether or not the Hell suggested in the Christian Faith is eternal, and I ask with the utmost respect that we keep it strictly at that.
It seems that your claims center around the idea that, in order for Jesus to have paid the “full price” for man’s sins, he would have had to go to Hell (given that Hell is the ultimate punishment for unforgiven sins). I would like to make a point here using a sequence of very short bullet points:
For these reasons, it is illogical to believe Jesus would be sent to Hell by an entity that was undoubtedly aware of the situation. It is, however, unclear to me where you are coming from on your “two deaths” argument. Please elaborate on this idea, as I do not understand your reasoning. You then added that you believe sinners die in Hell. I must ask you this: how is it possibly for one to die in their afterlife?
While you are correct that the reason for punishment is often to ensure that one “does better” next time, the reason for punishment can also be used to threaten one into doing their best—in turn using punishment as a consequence. This is evident in various settings; for example, a teen’s parents inform them that if they smoke cigarettes again they will be unable to attend a concert they’ve been planning to see. The teen knows the consequence and either chooses to obey because of it, or disobey regardless of it. Given that the teen continues to smoke cigarettes, they then suffer the eternal consequence: they will never be able to see that one particular concert they missed. While they can see other concerts in the future, the one they missed will never be replaced, and the loss is eternal because of it. Although not severe, this example demonstrates an eternal punishment (in the sense that eternal means life-long, as you’ve specified) as well as the use of punishment as a threat or consequence for poor conduct.
You claim that you “don’t think he would punish someone forever,” however you have provided absolutely no Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise. Hell is, oftentimes, referred to as “eternal” in the Bible, and you have yet to put forth any evidence that proves that it isn’t. Below I will include several mentions of Hell found in the Bible that imply that it is, in fact, an eternal state (all excerpts will be taken from the King James Version):
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Notice the repeated reference to Hell as “everlasting,” and “forever.” While you have brought up the point that these terms are not necessarily literal, I have made the point that Hell is an afterlife and therefore is not compatible with your alternate definitions.
You have cited several Biblical quotes that you believe justify your point that the duration of Hell is the lifetime of the sinner, however if this is the case, I have two main questions:
While the very idea of near-death experiences is questionable in validity, this debate is based on a theoretical idea itself…Therefore near-death experiences ending in both Heaven and Hell are to be considered equally valid. The claims made by those who have experienced death disprove your theory that Hell is suffered in life, because those making the claims were not alive when they experienced Hell. They were no longer medically alive, therefore what they were experiencing has to have to have been occurring in their afterlife.
I thank you for your response, and once again wish you the best in Round 3!
(1) http://blog.godreports.com...- him-changed/
14yearoldbiblelover forfeited this round.
Once again, I thank my opponent for his participation in this mind-stimulating debate. I see that he has, for whatever reason, forfeited this round; so I will not present any more arguments against his claims.
While the solution to this argument is far from definite, the majority of biblical evidence suggests that Hell is, in fact, an eternal state. In the theological context of this debate, it is only reasonable to make assumptions based on evidence provided by the religious text from which the very idea of "Hell" was dawn (as far as Christianity goes). Because my opponent has provided very little telling evidence otherwise (nor has he backed up the evidence he has cited), Hell can be assumed to be eternal rather than "life-long".
This has been a very interesting debate, and I look forward to discussing the topic in greater detail in the future. Thanks again!
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