The Instigator
Sciguy
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
V5RED
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Do you think that Religion is foundation of Human hope and prosperity?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/13/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 672 times Debate No: 80914
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

Sciguy

Pro

Round one is acceptance. Good luck.
V5RED

Con

I accept and will be taking the position that religion inhibits human hope and prosperity, so the burden of proof is shared.
Debate Round No. 1
Sciguy

Pro

I believe, just as most could, that Religion is or can be a foundation of hope. (I regret posting prosperity and I hope that we can ignore it.) I also believe that is one of its only reasons that it exists, it is here for the purpose to provide hope for the future of humanity, to bring out the best in people and provide compassion to thy fellow man, and to encourage that there is an afterlife.

1. Can religion be taken to far, and at times, hinder the progression of a race/civilization?

Yes, it can most definitely do this. Some example of this is the Islamic State and other Islamic extremists, Fundamentalists, and Nazis, yes, I say the Nazis, etc. Their views can contradict what is right and what is wrong morally and can, at times but not always, ruin the lives of others. The Islamic State has continually shown how they have taken their religion too far with (though technically speaking, ISIS does not follow Islam or the Koran to begin with and does not have a 'true religion') committing bombings on foreign soils the most recent as of now in Turkey to beheading innocent shepherds/persons barbarically. This is said enough on how religion can go to far.

A civilization can be hindered as well with these religions. As an example, if gay marriage were to remain illegal (as if a piece of paper can make a difference) it would likely have stalled the progression of our civilization, of our own kind at that.

But what does this have to do with hope? It has a lot actually.

2. Hope of an afterlife and beyond.

Death is a very, very scary thing to think about. No man can think about it nor can they understand it properly for it is just another possibilities of a 'lights out' 'no thinking, no seeing, no doing' 'no more talking' no nothing to say the least. So what do we do to cope with the unthinkable, the non-understandable? We exaggerate, we dream and come up with a 'solution' to the problem, we create a false hope, something that we can understand to a point, religion.

Religion does create a false sense of hope, it is meant to, of an afterlife for the many. I will talk more of this later for, as of now, I have nothing to see your opinion (which this debate, as religion is, based off of.) so that I may base my hypothesis and further build it.

I again would like to thank you for accepting this debate with me.
V5RED

Con

So, based on Pro's opening argument, it looks like he wants us to ignore prosperity. That is probably a good decision on his part since it is pretty well established that there is a strong correlation between religiosity and poverty. The most secular countries tend to have the most prosperity and social justice. France is a prime example. In the United States we certainly have wealth, but there is massive economic disparity, terrible access to healthcare for a developed nation, and racism and bigotry aplenty. That said, I will accept throwing prosperity out the window, so we will go to arguing for religion as a foundation of hope.

It is obvious that some people get hope out of religion, so if your argument is that religion can be used to give hope, then you are correct, but that would be an incredibly weak position. I would assume you aren't just thinking that it can be used to give hope, but that the hope is its purpose. I find such a claim to be very dubious. Religious leaders frequently seek political and economic power, they are rarely satisfied to remain a cult with no economic and political benefits. I would suggest that the hope people get is incidental to the true goal which is to gain wealth and power.

I can give many examples of this.

Ancient Egypt: The Pharaoh was considered to be a god and this was used to maintain power over the masses.
"The task of the king as the protagonist of human society was to retain the benevolence of the gods in maintaining order against disorder. This ultimately pessimistic view of the cosmos was associated principally with the sun god and the solar cycle. It formed a powerful legitimation of king and elite in their task of preserving order."
http://www.britannica.com...

Ancient China: The Mandate of Heaven was used as an excuse to justify their emperors. The people thought that the gods gave him the right to rule, so he had power.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Christianity: The Catholic church has historically had as its goal the acquisition of power. This has led to bitter and bloody conflicts with heads of state and events like the Crusades.
"In essence, the earliest vision of Christendom was a vision of a Christian theocracy, a government founded upon and upholding Christian values, whose institutions are spread through and over with Christian doctrine. In this period, members of the Christian clergy wield political authority. The specific relationship between the political leaders and the clergy varied but, in theory, the national and political divisions were at times subsumed under the leadership of the Catholic Church as an institution. This model of church-state relations was accepted by various Church leaders and political leaders in European history."
https://en.wikipedia.org...

That people are afraid of death provides religions with a powerful tool to control the people. The powerful religions would hold your eternal fate hostage which forced you to fall in line. I am most familiar with Catholicism and the threats of excommunication and hell still exist. These force people to go to church and donate to a group that is already incredibly wealthy. We cannot directly measure their wealth because they are exempt from normal laws, but a measure of how much they spend can help us to guess.
The Catholic Church spent an estimated $170 billion in 2012. That is some massive economic power.
http://www.economist.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Sciguy

Pro

As a summary of my argument above (next round we should delve further upon it) is religion something that "kills people that are already dead" oh dear heavens is it indeed but it can provide humans with a sense of hope and possibly content of what could be an afterlife. It provides them with the idea that you should show compassion and love to your fellow man and not walk on the path of hatred.

Now most religions do hold these views against you such as the Catholic Church and being excommunicated from the church and being forced to go in the fear of going to 'hell' should you not. This is where religion can go down the drain of course but I suppose it could provide some but little hope for the people.
V5RED

Con

" It provides them with the idea that you should show compassion and love to your fellow man and not walk on the path of hatred." We got the idea of altruism via kin selection. Groups that support each other and have less in-fighting are more likely to survive. We have added to this natural drive over time from philosophy and religion, but it started naturally. The philosophical methods were via studying the basis of morality. Philosophers study this because they care. The religious methods were via telling you that gods don't like murder. The religious did not do this out of compassion, they did it because you have better control over a people that are less violent.

"Now most religions do hold these views against you such as the Catholic Church and being excommunicated from the church and being forced to go in the fear of going to 'hell' should you not. This is where religion can go down the drain of course but I suppose it could provide some but little hope for the people." Religion's purpose is to control people so that the people in charge gain power and wealth. If the people are able to be controlled using fear, then the religion is still doing very well. If the people have hope but the leaders of the religion do not have control of the people and do not have wealth and power, then the religion has gone wrong. That would be a situation where the main function is not present, but a side effect is present.
Debate Round No. 3
Sciguy

Pro

Sciguy forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by V5RED 1 year ago
V5RED
Okay.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
I really should have made this only three rounds, five may have been a little too much. (Mostly due to what I am doing at the moment away from the site which is a personal issue) So if you do not mind Con, may we ignore rounds four and five?
Posted by V5RED 1 year ago
V5RED
All religions are stuff that people made up. They have religious beliefs and follow them leading to killing.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
But they do not follow the Holy book at all! They have practically created their own religion and no where in it has it said to kill anyone who is innocent.
Posted by V5RED 1 year ago
V5RED
That feels like a bit of a no true scotsman fallacy. These people obviously believe that they are following divine orders. Just look at the suicide bombers who think they will be getting a magic afterlife reward. Additionally, these people start bombing and murdering when you draw a cartoon of their religious icon. They would not react that way if they did not literally believe in their religion. That you can find some verses that show them to not act in accordance with their book is meaningless. I could do the same thing for almost anyone of any religion. What matters is the obvious religious motivation.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
I am glad that you ignored and politely made 'prosperity' exempt from this debate. I was thinking, at the time, what I was going to talk about and I thought of how prosperity is not something religion brings but can eradicate however you can not blame religion alone for wars, poverty, and destruction only governments and almost always their people. Though the war with ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and other terrorists groups are religious wars they should not be taken literally. These groups do not follow any actual religion instead they are mostly based and built with UN-educated imbeciles who cannot truly think of the damage and turmoil they are causing. No man can say that they (ISIS) follow the Qur'an and are not lying through their teeth, ISIS do not follow the basic code of war! (I had to look it up because I had forgotten most of the laws. O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well!
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone. https://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Lisen2Reason 1 year ago
Lisen2Reason
Religion is the foundation of human wars and suffering thousands of years fighting of religion and faith for what..? the religion is a lie to give power to the few and take away from the many but religions also the foundation of art and science but has since then been let behind to let the human mind explore and achieve religion holds back humanity's true potential religion is the cause of the deaths of hundreds of millions around the world throughout history if we waste our time believing in lies we will never see the truth and open our eyes to facts and reason.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
Yes. if we do not have hope and prosperity.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
Yes, thank you Vsred. I was trying to say that religion is only around to encourage hope among man. As with comes all of these debates over religion there will be mostly opinion rather than fact.
Posted by V5RED 1 year ago
V5RED
I think a missing pronoun might be the culprit here, I think Sciguy wanted to say that it is a foundation, not the foundation, so it is optional. That said, I plan to show that religion degrades prosperity and happiness.
No votes have been placed for this debate.