The Instigator
XxShiro123xX
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
DNehlsen
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

Do you think that (pro) Christianity is a good religion or a terrible religion (con)?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
DNehlsen
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/5/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 592 times Debate No: 104303
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (1)

 

XxShiro123xX

Con

Christianity is not as good as many think, if you take a look at history when weapons like the Puckle gun was created, there were two types of bullets used circle bullets against Christians and Square bullets against Muslim "Turks" to attempt to convert them to Christianity, the bible, if it's suppose to something great, then why does it say to kill non-believers, 1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel." if it's so good then why does it say for slaves to respect their cruel slaves. if your god is so great then why doesn't stop many of the devastating events that has happened recently? for example, when the two hurricanes hit Texas and in Puerto Rico, your god could have prevented it and the shooting in Las Vegas, Nevada, your god could have stopped the shooter or protected the people, also when what about family members that have died, if your god was so great then he would have been able to heal them, I've felt like this ever since my father died, I was a Christian than but since these events, I'm not one anymore
DNehlsen

Pro

Christianity, by definition, is the pursuit of Christ. Christ is revealed in his word to us, the Bible. Therefore Christianity should be judged upon what we find in it's text, the Bible.

The Bible does not teach to kill unbelievers, it says to love them. It also says to love your enemies. (Colossians 4:5-6 Matthew 5:44)

The Bible teaches humility and honor when it tells a slave to honor their cruel masters. Christians are called to carry a big burden for their faith. (Matthew 16:24-26) Humility and patience are virtues. (Galatians 5:22-23) God does not condone people being cruel to their slaves, but in the event that it happens the slave should still honor them. We've transgressed God and he held his peace against us, so how can we let our wrath burn against someone who trangresses us without being hypocrites? (Matthew 18:21-35) This life isn't what's important for those of us who have Christ as our savior.

The Earth was cursed because of man's sin. These hurricanes are simply a result of man's decision making. (Genesis 3)

God gives man free will. We chose to sin and have a sin nature. The Bible says that God lets us make our choices, (Romans 1:28) and if they're immoral they will be made right later. God will judge eventually. (1 Peter 2:23b)

Pain, Suffering, and Death are always hard things. But God says that he will wipe away every tear. (Revelation 21:4) The evil things of this world, and our bad choices, will be made right. There will be no more pain, or suffering, or fear. Christianity is the only religion that directly addresses the subject of evil, it's origin, and provides a solution to this issue.

But we're just focusing on all of the bad. Let's take a moment to talk about the good things that Christianity brings about.

Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are outlined as the foundational attributes of the Christian follower. Those sound like good traits to have. (Galatians 5:22-23)

The second greatest command of the entire Bible, the second message of the entire text, is to love your neighbor as yourself. That's pretty cool. (Matthew 22:36-40)

The foundation of Christianity, the greatest attribute of the Christian, is Love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)

The Bible is anti-racist. (1 Corinthians 15:45, Galatians 5:6)

The Bible supports women's rights, with female leaders, deacons etc. (Genesis 2:18, Judges 4, Romans 16:1)

The Bible teaches us to love the unlovable. (Matthew 5:46)

The Bible encourages the use of Science. (Psalm 111:2, Proverbs 14:15)

The Bible promises hope and a future for any seeking. (Jeremiah 19:11)

With all of these stances, I find it hard for one to say that the Bible is an immoral, or bad religion. On that note, however, I would like my opponent to tell me by what metric Christianity can be 'bad' if there is no moral standard by which to judge right and wrong. To say Christianity is bad is to presuppose good and bad. Such a thing cannot exist if we are just a product of nature.
Debate Round No. 1
XxShiro123xX

Con

Your argument isn't very compelling as i originally thought, you aren't stating how you feel about Christianity, also your one of those types that focus on the good things that the bible says and ignore the bad things it says, for example it tells to show no mercy to non-believers, Numbers 31, where God commands the Israelites to attack Midian and kill all the men, all the married women and all the male children **but to keep the virgin females as the spoils of war and distribute them among the soldiers.** The reason offered for that barbarism? Two Midianite women had allegedly "tempted" two Israelite men to worship other gods." If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, In your 3rd paragraph " God does not condone people being cruel to their slaves, but in the event that it happens the slave should still honor them. " Why would you "great" god even let such a thing happen to someone that may or may not believe? If you can tell me why, it tells to kill someone because they don't believe in the same god as you. if your god is so great than why would he care if someone believed in another god? Also, tell me if the bible says to love non-believers, then why does it contradict itself by telling us to hurt non-believers, "Let us go and worship other gods" 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 **You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death**, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
It also states that Christians have to plunder a town and burn it completely down to the ground as an offering to god.
DNehlsen

Pro

My opponents ignorance of context shows that they have never really read their Bible. The only thing they're doing is parroting the views of other critics. My opponent quotes verses from the Torah, which means the Law. The Law was put into place for Israel, during a specific time, for a specific purpose. The entire point was that Israel would have God as their King, and as such he would lead their nation of people. In order to ensure they stayed true to God as their leader, rules were instated. To ensure that the nation of Israel wouldn't be corrupted by the neighboring nations, they all had to be dealt with. There are many examples of God showing grace to other nations that humbled themselves before him, and didn't oppose his will. (Judges 9-10) Regardless, we are not under the Law, as it has been fulfilled through Jesus Christ. (Galatians 3:24-25)

also your one of those types that focus on the good things that the bible says and ignore the bad things it says
Not at all. I give it all equal attention. You simply want to focus on what you perceive as bad. You can't pin that on me.

for example it tells to show no mercy to non-believers,
For reasons already stated, the bible never tells any of us to do this, only a specific people at a specific time.

I challenge my opponent to find any verse in the Bible telling the modern Christian to kill, hate, burn, murder, slander, deceive, rob, or in any way harm any individual.
Debate Round No. 2
XxShiro123xX

Con

Although today Christianity isn't as violent as it was in bible times but are you going to follow a god the promotes events like genocide, 1st Samuel: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." King Saul committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me." Luke 19:27. if your god is so great then why would he need to kill them, even if they don't believe? I the Jews where god's people then why would they have been in so much danger? For example, when the Israelites were in Egypt, god could have saved them much sooner than what it stated, or when Hitler did the Holocaust, I'm sure most of the Jews were Christians, in other words Children of god, where was god then, why would he let his children die, what purpose would he have for doing this?

I challenge my opponent to find any verse in the Bible telling the modern Christian to kill, hate, burn, murder, slander, deceive, rob, or in any way harm any individual.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13)
this states that as Christians they have to kill anyone who is homosexual, and to many Christians the bible's words lasts for all eternity, although times have changed the scriptures in the bible would still be active?

One other thing, what about the people in the world that have no access to god/bible or any missionaries to preach his word, I'll ask this, what would happen to them, would they stay trapped in the eternal fire, purgatory or something else?
DNehlsen

Pro

1st Samuel text & Exodus
I suggest you read through the book of Judges for the reasoning behind this. More than a dozen times the people of Israel knew who God was and rebelled against him for other 'gods.' Because they wanted to serve other gods, God stopped protecting them. Being a small nation they were overtaken by surrounding nations and put into oppression. Once the people realized they had a problem they would repent to God and serve him again. Once they did this, God would deliver them again and they would continue to serve him. This cycle, as stated before, went on over a dozen times in the book of Judges alone. The fact of the matter was the the Israelites were incappable of keeping themselves devoted to God, so they needed to ensure there was no pagan influence on them, lest they turn away yet again.

In Egypt, God was making a name for himself before the world. Each of the 10 plagues was actually pertaining to a different Egyption god, showing that God was superior to all of them. If you study it all it's actually very interesting how it all comes together to challenge each pagan god. For instance, the darkness showed God's sovereignty over the egyptian god of the sun. Notes on this are detailed throughout Exodus 3-10.

Luke 19:27
This quote comes from the midst of a story told by Jesus. Jesus was not commanding this quote, he was simply telling a story which contained said quote. This does not mean he endorsed it.

Leviticus 20:13
This is a passage to the Israelites, not to the Christian. It seems clear to me my opponent has never actually read the Old Testament, as he completely ignores context and literary style repeatedly.

what about the people in the world that have no access to god/bible or any missionaries to preach his word
That's a difficult question, and I've gotten it a lot while on missions to Europe and Africa. There isn't a simple solution, but Scripture does give us some clues as to what we can expect.

The first thing to point out is there seems to be exceptions for those too young to be accountable for their own salvation. (2 Samuel 12:21-22) This passage details King David's bastard son dying. After his death, however, David states that he will return to him. This seems to indicate that David's son will be in heaven. I would postulate there is a point of accountability for which one is responsible for their sin, based upon this passage.

The second thing is that the Bible indicates that a Bible is not needed for salvation. (Romans 1:28) The Bible tells us that nature alone should be enough to show us the attributes of God, and point to a creator.

The third thing to note is that God doesn't just communicate by the Bible. The Bible records God communicating by: Dreams and Revelation (Genesis 15:1, Acts 7) Audible Conversation (Exodus 3, Mark 1:11) and Personal Experience. (Psalm 34:8, 1 Peter 2:3, John 10:14) There have been countless stories of dreams and visions by different Christian converts. While there is no way to prove this, this does make sense assuming God is real.

The fourth, and final, thing I'd like to note is that we don't necessarily need to know it all. The bible says that God will be a just judge. (1 Peter 2:23) Maybe we don't have all the details we'd want or need, but that's not the primary bit of importance for us.

Anyways
My original points about all of the positives of Christianity still stand. As for my opponents points, they're simply inapplicable to the modern Christian. Nothing about Christianity teaches us to harm, in any manner, any individual. Because of this, I find it hard to reach the conclusion that Christianity is a terrible religion.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ianadams37 2 months ago
Ianadams37
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Posted by DNehlsen 3 months ago
DNehlsen
5. Hell is a difficult subject. I don't know a topic with more Christian literature, debate, and disagreement. My simple answer to you is I don't know. I don't think the Bible tells us enough. A couple notes though.

We aren't punished for unbelief, we're punished for sin. We either pay back our crimes ourselves or someone else does for us. It's not the unbelief that God is worried about here. (John 3:36)

The biggest 'faith' in the Bible, is that God will judge justly. (1 Peter 2:23) Do we believe that? The Bible indicate that whatever God decides is the right thing, even if we don't understand. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

This is a big question, and one much too big to tackle in a comments section. Hopefully I was able to adequately address your questions even still.
Posted by DNehlsen 3 months ago
DNehlsen
2b. I wouldn't sacrifice anyone. The Bible is clearly against it.

3. Yeah, certain things would. Alien life would destroy almost all earthly religions, as they teach we're unique on Earth. If credible documentation was presented that refuted the existence of Christ, or any of his Bible-writing apostles, I would have serious doubts about the testimony of Scripture. If any scientific declaration in Scripture was ever proven wrong, we would know the Bible is thus fallible and not from God. If another worldview just made more sense logically altogether that would also be grounds for apostasy.

4. The world we live in is proof don't you think? Where did we come from? What was before the Big Bang? What was before that? Where was the eventual beginning? How can nothing create something, and if there was more than nothing where did it come from? How did all of our stars and periodic table evolve from just a couple elements? How did life evolve from nonlife? Any attempts to replicate this naturally simply don't work. If you take out God there is no good. If there is no good there is no bad. If there is no good or bad why do we care how many people dies in Vegas? Why do we care about natural disaster victims? Aren't we just a produce of nature playing victim to more nature? Why should we be upset with that? If you take out God there is no eternity or intention. If we have no eternity or intention we have no purpose. If we have no purpose why do we care about suicide, and euthanasia? Why is 50% of the nation against abortion? For some reason we value human life, even though it ultimately means nothing. So the naturalist must explain how we began, evolved, attained morality, and what our purpose is, with absolutely no outside influence. It doesn't seem to make sense.
Posted by DNehlsen 3 months ago
DNehlsen
I don't care about you forfeiting the debate, but I'll answer them.

1. Yes, the Bible is clearly against rape.

While we are not under the Old Testament Law anymore, it does speak about God's moral position on matters. Deuteronomy 22 is an entire chapter dedicated to this, and the effective punishments. Sexual Immorality of all kinds is condemned in the New Testament as well. (Matthew 5:32, 1 Corinthians 6:18, Hebrews 13:4 etc.) Rape within a married couple was grounds for divorce, so even an unwilling wife was protected.

As for slavery, the Bible does not outright condemn the practice, but it qualifies it. Think about it, if someone causes damage to you property, you expect them to pay for it. What if they have no money with which to pay? Now days we send them to prison, where they live for free and eat up resources. Back then, however, they would go into servitude, or slavery, and work until they paid back their debt. It's another debate altogether but I think prison is an idiotic idea, because of how expensive it is to keep people alive and have them do nothing.

Slaves were not to be mistreated, (Colossians 4:1) and were to be set free if they were. (Exodus 21:26-27) Slaves were only allowed to be owned for a small time. (Exodus 21: 1-6) Slaves were so well-kept, in fact, that many of them wanted to return to work for their masters. (Exodus 21:5-6)

The Biblical definition of slavery was very different from the slavery we have today. (Romans 6:16) I think Scripture makes is clear that, for instance, the Confederate-american treatment of slaves was sinful and wrong. (Ephesians 6:8-10, Proverbs 14:31, 22:16)

2. God is against human sacrifice of all kinds. (Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 21:6) You're most likely asking this question from Genesis 22. God did not actually let Abraham sacrifice his child though, as it was a test. All along Abraham knew his child would not die, because in Genesis 21:12 Isaac was promised to have children. So no, I wouldn't s
Posted by XxShiro123xX 3 months ago
XxShiro123xX
@DNehlson
If you give a good answer for at least 3 of them, I'll forfeit the debate.
Posted by XxShiro123xX 3 months ago
XxShiro123xX
To the one that challenged me, i have a few questions, i want to ask.

Can you make a moral judgment against rape or slavery using only scripture?
Would you sacrifice your child, brother, sister, or mother/father if god asked you to?
Is there any amount of evidence that would change your views?
What physical proof is there that your particular god even exists?
Do you believe hell is a justifiable punishment for a simple lack of belief or to those who can't get god in any way?
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
is a very young age to set in stone much of anything to state that this is this and ---everything--- else is wrong? And yes, absolutely your god does hate children, so indeed your god does hate you though you may have grown out of that phase.

Obviously not have you studied Noah and the great flood at all to come up with the clear misinterpretations that you"ve come up with. OK now"s your chance, present me with the hours of video footage that you"ve seen and all the whatevers. But I give you fair warning. I do know my stuff. So don"t make it boogeyman ooga booga He-Man laughable unscientific nonsense. K? Because you still have yet to justify your god"s killing off of all life. Sorry saving only Noah and 2 of each species does not count because certainly 1. A supreme deity could have thought of a better way 2. This shows that he hated man AND life which includes babies and children - please don"t even argue it 3. Wow 40 days and 40 nights of rain? Hmm it took your god 6 days to create the universe. Now what"s wrong with the math? 4. Clearly the worst form of animal abuse of all time 5. The ark would have sunk under its own weight 6. Too much dung and not enough air space. Every living thing would have suffocated. 7. Now enough help to feed all the animals. 8. Not enough space for the animals to move around. 9. Wow an estimated 2 million or so species on the ark? 10. How could the ark have been loaded? 11. 2 ants for 2 anteaters where"s the math? 12. How did kangaroos and other species get to the ark? Did they doggie paddle across oceans? 13. 2 of each species is not enough to save each species. They would have died off. 14. Freshwater and saltwater species for the most part don"t jell so they would have died off. 15. To kill off all man except for Noah and his family? Hmmmmmm everyone else was wicked?????? Really??? Including babies suckling on their mothers nipples? That"s a good one. Etc etc etc. So no in no way have you studied Noah and the great flood.
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
about it and most are

going to change their ideas and start tweeking them as soon as they have to start answering questions because they haven"t looked into it before most of them." Tracie Harris

"Do you believe that god imposed that law in the OT that it was in effect and that it was from god? And if so do you agree that its immoral? And if they"re not willing to admit that its an immoral law, then they have to defend it whether they think they are under it or not because they have to say at the time is was imposed it was for example to kill gay people. If they want to argue that it wasn"t ever moral then they have to say whether or not their god imposed that law. And if they say "no god had nothing to do with the law" they"re off the hook but that makes other problems. If they say god did impose that law then they do have to answer the question "do you think its a moral law?""" Tracie Harris .

The foundation of faith? WHAT? Even more excuses? Now do you want a battering ram of faith? First off no god of yours who is reasonably intelligent would ever ever ever ever and let"s say ever again use faith. Faith does NOT provide truth of any kind and wow its certainly not evidence either. This god of yours with his bloated ego would not play a game of hide-and-go-seek for thousands of years as no one has even seen a remote hint of him with 0 evidence for his existence. No instead he would show himself and present himself or he would simply talk to us or both. Now that"s evidence. Sheesh. I mean its like you are deliberately trying to pretend to be stupid. Now do you want me to post the Matt Dillahunty quotes again in which you cannot refute and you know it?

Yeah I do talk about your age a lot in which I apologize for. I"m wrong on that. Now in which you started reading and completing a reading of the bible at that age, really what did you gain out of it at that age to reduce everything else and gain legitimacy, trust and authenticity from it because 13
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
@DNehlsen - Look we"ve gotten into this before. You find me anywhere in your hideous strangulating bible where it states something like "I the lord thy god grants jesus to break my laws, rules and regulations and thus bring in your own laws, rules and regulations so that they remain truthful and true." The fact of the matter is that nowhere in your bible does god EVER state anything like that. So until he does, then YOUR god"s laws to kill gays and stone them to death as in Leviticus 20:13 stands tall and firm. Sorry. god has the say so. god is more powerful than jesus. The two, god and jesus are two separate entities. Also what stands tall and firm is since I do not believe in your god and am rightly trying to lead you astray because your god is truly based on hate and evil as been proved to you but you constantly go into massive brainwashed denial and you still have yet to state why you believe in this god of yours above all else and what made you believe in the first place and why you don"t believe in yourself because believe it or not you are worth something and you are somebody of worth, what does stand tall is Deuteronomy 13 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17 2-5 telling you to kill me because I do not believe in your hideous god. So are you going to follow YOUR god"s rules, laws and regulations and kill me? Why? Why not?. You can"t just erase verses from the bible just because YOU want to. And how do you think your god feels about you breaking his laws? What gives you the right to do as such?

Oh yes it is ab-so-lu-ly your interpretation.
"If you try to get clarification, if you try to get what the christian orthodox view is on the law, you're not going to find consensus. You"re not going to find christians "oh here"s what christians think about" they"re all going to have this concept of this different thing now. But as far as it applies and why and what to do with it, they"re all different. Its going to be a hard argument because most have different ideas
Posted by DNehlsen 3 months ago
DNehlsen
"He invented the excuse for Leviticus 20:13 with his mumbo jumbo toxic lard "This is a passage to the Israelites, not to the Christian." Now how does he know this? Where does he get his actual proof from? How and where does he get his interpretations from?"

I get this from the Bible.

Matthew 5:17 says Jesus fulfilled the law, thus ending it's reign over us.
Romans 7 is an entire chapter about how we're not under Moses' Law anymore.
Hebrews 8:13, Romans 6:14, Galatians 5:18 are three more examples.

The Old Testament Law, for Israel, was finished by the work of Christ on the cross. This isn't just my interpretation, this is the entire point of Christianity. It's the foundation of the faith.

Also, I stated I started reading the Bible 3 years ago. That doesn't mean I've never read it since. Regardless, you seem to talk about my age a lot, yet you turn around and talk about how much the Bible hates children right after you're done.

I've researched Noah's flood extensively. I've watched hours of video footage, I've read over a half dozen books on the subject, and I've even debated the topic on more than one occasion. I'm pretty well read in it. To simply throw my age out there and pretend like that disqualifies anything I say shows that you yourself truly hate children, now isn't that right?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by EXOPrimal 3 months ago
EXOPrimal
XxShiro123xXDNehlsenTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: S&G goes to pro because I feel like Con has a lack of structure and multiple run on sentences that effected my ability to read the debate, round 1 and 2 are big blocks of run on text. Pro's arguments, on the other hand, were structured well. I feel like the points brought up by Con were compelling, but, as Con pointed out, Irrelevant in the context of modern Christianity. Another problem I found with Con's arguments, was the lack of arguments, instead Con just put up a series of attempted rebuttals. I assume BOP is split, and con failed to fulfill his/her side of the argument. I find that the bible quotes from Pro's first argument prove that the bible does have good parts in it. Con failed to provide a Bible verses that were not proven to be out of context by Pro, this is specifically geared towards the last round where all of Con's standing points were proven to say nothing about modern Christianity. This debate goes to Pro.