The Instigator
Thorwald
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
pcmb
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Does ANYONE understand The Trinity & The Godhead?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/21/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,213 times Debate No: 36916
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (1)

 

Thorwald

Con

As a Christian, I rely on the Christian ministry to provide the truth, backed up by scripture (preferably KJV Bible).

In John 5:37 and 1 Timothy 6:16, I read that there is an 'invisible to man' FATHER, that no man has EVER seen, or heard His voice, at ANY time.

Many have seen God and Christ (including me). In Acts 7:55-56, Stephen sees Christ standing on the right hand of God. In Revelation chapters 4 & 5, John sees these two figures. I saw these two figures in a vision (the same as Stephen did). Isaiah 44:6 is referring to these same two figures as being called 'GOD'. Genesis 1:26 must also be referring to these same two figures. The disciples heard a voice from heaven/clouds stating, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." In the OT, God speaks to many people, and Numbers 12:6 tells us that God makes Himself known unto prophets in a vision, and speaks to them in a dream.

It seems to me, that the so-called Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) cannot include Jesus Christ. The Lord God Almighty must be 'THE SON' of The Trinity, with Jesus (The Lord of Hosts) being His only begotten Son. Together, The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ must have created all other creations.

Revelation 1:6 KJV Bible seems to be telling us, that even 'GOD' has a Father.

It appears that the Christian ministry and the 'anointed' of the Bible, have never ASKED GOD for an understanding of this topic. I did.
pcmb

Pro

So if I provide a satisfactory interpretation, do I win the debate?

I'm not a Christian per se, but I am a Theist who believes that the teachings of Jesus Christ are consistent with the will of a higher being. My mother is Catholic, so I have some background in the Christian faith. I hope my interpretation proves interesting.

Genesis 1:27 tells us that God created man in his own image. As you say, the Father is described as being inaccessible to man, at least in the sensory respect. Certainly, He, taken alone, is without "image" in any ordinary sense of the word. Yet Christ is also God, and alike in appearance to you or I.

I'm of the opinion that 1:27 tells us about much more than the yet to appear visage of Christ. I'm not the slightest bit familiar with Hebrew, but few translations between two languages are exact, so I interpret the word image in a broader sense, and it's my thinking that, more than being created in God's image, we were created in His same form. It's a hard claim to evidence, but when "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them," the word man seems to lack gender; it's used like the word mankind. The pronoun "them" refers back to "man", and in other translations, "him" is substituted with "them" as well. Anyway, getting to the point, Christ is, in His image, alike to man and not to woman. Yet Genesis doesn't make this distinction.

I believe that this passage relates man and God in form and not simply appearance. Jesus Christ has a material self, just as we do. In His material incarnation, Jesus is apart from the Father and the Holy Ghost, yet his word is the word of the entire Trinity. Besides physical form, Jesus/God possesses a consciousness, and just as your consciousness is not directly accessible to me and vice versa, His consciousness is not sensible by our eyes and ears. That conscious, experiencing mind is, in my interpretation, the Father. We cannot see, nor hear Him, but His immaterial thought became the speech of Jesus Christ in the same way our thoughts become speech. The Holy Ghost would then be analogous to the human soul, quite apart from the mind, since the soul persists beyond death and the mind does not. Mankind was created in the form of God, that is, as a tripartite being.

That's how I interpret the Trinity.

"It seems to me, that the so-called Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) cannot include Jesus Christ. The Lord God Almighty must be 'THE SON' of The Trinity, with Jesus (The Lord of Hosts) being His only begotten Son. Together, The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ must have created all other creations." Could you clarify this paragraph? What is the role of the Holy Ghost here, and if not Jesus, who is the third member of the Trinity.

As for Revelation 1:6, the NIV and ESV both translate it as "and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen." which makes sense, because the passage is in reference to Christ the Son.
Debate Round No. 1
Thorwald

Con

pcmb,

Thank you for your input. I do not know how you come to the conclusions (understanding) of the scriptures that you reference. I am 'baffled' by your posting.
pcmb

Pro

pcmb forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Thorwald

Con

Thorwald forfeited this round.
pcmb

Pro

pcmb forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Solomon_Grim 4 years ago
Solomon_Grim
I have already answered those verses. The bible also says that God will preserve his word, so saying that their is conflict is saying God lies.
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
How can ANYONE state that they 'understand' the doctrine of The Trinity, and by saying so, ignore John 5:37 and 1 Timothy 6:16? I'm being repetitious, because it appears this does NOT sink in. Many have seen The Lord God Almighty and Christ. Numbers 12:6, the voice from heaven 'speaking', John seeing The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ (Revelation chapters 4 & 5), Stephen seeing Christ standing on the right hand of The Lord God Almighty Acts 7:55-56), and so on, are in conflict with John 5:37 and 1 Timothy 6:16.

If we truly understood the doctrine of The Trinity, THERE WOULD BE NO CONFLICT. This is what this whole debate is about. DEAL WITH IT.
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
Solomon_Grim,

It appears to me, that if I tie Revelation 1:6 in with 'The Lord's Prayer, the 'Him' must refer to 'God' (The Lord God Almighty).
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
Solomon_Grim,

You are interpreting these verses in a way to back up your beliefs (as I did before I had my second vision). I even went to God in prayer, 'IN ANGER'. I couldn't understand who the 'fourth figure' in the vision, was. It took at lot of Bible reading (I read through the NT, twice in the same night), and prayer. It was only then, that I realized, that the Bible actually contained the error(s). God kept making me think of the second vision. He had 'given me the answer, BEFORE I asked the question. Up to that point, I believed what I had been taught in church.
Posted by Solomon_Grim 4 years ago
Solomon_Grim
Revelations 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to HIM be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice how the phrase God and his father as him.
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
In any case, we, as Christians are 'protected'. We have Christ, and therefore we have The Lord God Almighty, and therefore, we have The Father of The Lord God Almighty. If we have the Son, we have The Father. If we don't have The Son, we don't have The Father (per scripture).
Posted by Solomon_Grim 4 years ago
Solomon_Grim
If I may put my input about the verses John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16, and Revelations 1:6.

John- in this verse, Jesus is speaking to those that plot to kill him as it says earlier on in the chapter. So he is saying that these people specifically haven't seen or heard due to their cold hearts.

1 Timothy- this one seems to mean that in our current state we cannot see him. It stresses that MAN has never seen and never will see God's true state in our current body. Those who have seen him has only seen him in glimpses, no actually seeing him.

Revelations- this one can be read wrong very easily. I even misread it first time. It seems that Jesus is referring to his father as God, who is my father. As it refers to God and his Father as him. So Jesus is saying to John that God, who is my father, deserves praise and worship.
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
You are correct. The reason why I 'expanded' this topic, is because the misunderstanding of The Trinity & The Godhead, affects a great deal of scriptures.

When Christ spoke of 'The Father, sometimes He was referring to The Lord God Almighty, and sometimes He was referring to The Father of The Lord God Almighty (whom The Holy Ghost proceeds from).
Posted by philochristos 4 years ago
philochristos
"The 'ISSUE' is whether or not we have 'thrown out' The Lord God Almighty, and replaced Him with His invisible Father. "

Then you should change the resolution to read something like, "We have thrown out the Lord God Almighty and replaced him with his invisible Father." But be sure to clarify in round one what you mean by that because it's far from clear.
Posted by Thorwald 4 years ago
Thorwald
The whole 'key' to a proper understanding of The Trinity & The Godhead, is the book of Revelation. This is why we cannot 'change it'. Everything written in this book, was DICTATED to John. When a person then takes the rest of The Bible's scriptures and tries to match it to Revelation, the errors raise their ugly heads.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
ThorwaldpcmbTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Fail debate, both sides dropped out.