The Instigator
Pro (for)
2 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
9 Points

Does God Exist? Why believe anything about him more than green aliens or ghosts?

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/24/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 464 times Debate No: 57110
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)




This introduction will be fairly short compared to most of my introductions to debates.
Does God exist? That is the question this debate is about. Why should we believe the Bible? As you can see, I am the 'pro' which means i believe in God . . .

I am a Christian and believe that every, single thing the Bible says is true, is true. The Bible has somewhere between 1 - 5 verses in it that actually say "Everything in God's Word is true." If everything is true according to that verse, what if there are things we don't believe about in the Bible? That means that specific verse is wrong. So even if we weren't to include the verses that made it false, it would now be not true, which means the Bible has a misleading verse. Wait! The verse that is wrong is the one that says everything in the Bible is true . . . So now the Bible is false, right? Wrong.
"Why is that wrong?"
I am making a debate on this very topic.

It is very complicated to explain, so take your time.
(That is why I never understood how you could have disbelief of the Bible)


Thank you for such an interesting topic, and I look forward to reading your arguments. I will be arguing that we have no reason to believe that God exists or that the Bible is true in any sense. I will also keep my arguments fairly short, since I have not had the opportunity to see what angle Pro will be taking.

I. God as Evil

Everybody knows and expects this argument, so I am not going to spend too long explicating it. Essentially, evil exists in the world, in myriad, horrible forms. We see this manifested in genocide, detestable crimes, poverty, starvation, etc. The God that Pro is defending is perfectly good (perfectly moral), but also all-powerful. Thus, in order to act morally, God would have created a world where evil was not present, where destruction is, at the minimum, minimized. However, we see that this has not been the case. We are, then, faced with two options, neither of which supports Pro's side: 1) God does not exist, or 2) He is not in the same conception as Pro has presented (e.g., not omnibenevolent).

Moreover, to impact this to the Bible, God has condoned or ordered some fairly despicable acts, including, but not limited to:

"Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.
22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark." - Genesis 7:21-23

"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well." - Exodus 12:29

"Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.” 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah." - Numbers 16:46-49

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." - Joshua 6:21

In short, though he is supposed to be completely good, kind, and merciful, God condones, orders, and executes numerous atrocities. These alone are reason to doubt his existence and the veracity of the Bible. Moreover, since Pro believes in every single word of the Bible, they should have no problem defending:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” - 1 Timothy 2:12

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” - 1 Peter 2:18

"If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you." - Deuteronomy 22:20-21

Good luck.

II. The Bible is Contradictory

The Bible contradicts itself pretty frequently, and has shown itself to be historically inaccurate numerous times. This undermines the veracity of the Bible. Just a few examples:

"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." - Matthew 1:16
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli." - Luke 3:23

The three separate accounts of finding the Empty Tomb (Matthew 28, Mark 16, John 20).

The two creation accounts (Genesis 1, Genesis 2), especially compared with the scientific consensus of a 12 billion year old universe.

The three different accounts of Jesus' last words (Matthew 27, Luke 23, John 19).

These contradictions could go on infinetely. The Bible is not accurate, is not true, and cannot be relied upon as fact. Pro will have to explain why we should credibly trust tribal authors from thousands of years ago when they claim that they were divinely inspired.


There is no evidence that God exists; rather, there is significant reason to believe he does not. The problem of evil as witnessed through the Bible belies God's supposed nature, and the contradictory nature of Scripture is sufficient to undermine its credibility. Pro has to defend all of the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible, and this is a task that cannot be done. I look forward to Pro's arguments.

Debate Round No. 1


Hello, thanks for joining this debate. What I am saying will be based on the two comments that have already been posted, and also, more specifically, what Con has said. I will be speaking as if God is certainly true for a short bit, and will intertwine believing it is just a hunch. I personally am strong in the belief He is real.

God has created us with our free will. It would be like creating robots. You have two choices. Either you can make them programmed to always obey your command, or you can make them to obey what the programmed machine thinks best fir it's survival. We are allowed to do anything we want! We could resist every suggestion and demand He makes, or we can choose to be luke-warm, or we can choose to be fully committed to Him. So the question really is: Do we believe in Him? If we were all to believe what the Bible says, everyone knows we would all submit fully to God. Fear of hell is serious. But there are some reasons many people are either unbelieving of the god Christians chose, or are Atheist.

Many Atheists choose a similar to exact argument Con chose. God allows evil to roam the earth. Considering the Bible is true, Adam and Eve were given a rule not to disobey and eat the certain fruit. When they did, sin entered the world and evil joined in with it. Now, God would not like to go to the other option of robots who obey all the time, so he lets sin enter out lives. Whether or not you believe in the Bible, everyone knows "sin" (ANY bad thoughts, actions, or words we do or think) is always going to lead to consequence. So why would you do it? Evil is allowed in our lives because God wants us to make a choice to obey Him. The world is supposedly "perfect" if God were real. Many, many Atheists have argued that saying the Bible claims that, but they are obviously uneducated in this region. The Bible does NOT say that evil will not happen, but in fact says that it will indeed happen; often, too. It is whether or not we allow it to mold our lives into exactly what Satan (Hades, King of Hell . . . whatever you want to call him) wants it to be like. Obviously, if this stuff is all real, he wants you to be sent to hell where evil is so terrible it makes believers pass out thinking about dead people suffering there.

Here is such a good point I find it very hard to contradict. It does not prove God exists or even lead to that, but it makes it a whole lot easier to believe:

If God is fake, and when you die nothing happens, like Atheists say, then when Christians believe in God and Satan and hell and everything, we will not be charged. All Christians who die will be equally dead. However, IF the everything the Bible says is true, then Atheists will certainly suffer forever and to the end of time. Why risk it? Christians aren't risking anything. Again that should not make you believe in God, but it opens a new reason in which you should.

Back on my previous topic about how the Bible says evil will roam the earth, I have a few verses. Atheists and even Satan in the Bible have used verses against Jesus and Christians to twist them into new meanings. It makes sense, even the devil knows everything there is to know about God and the Bible, he just doesn't want us to.

{ Matthew 4:5-7

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
""He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.""
7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."" }

So this is an example that using verses will have no effect on me or any God-Believers. There is always an answer. Some are easy, others will take a day or two to find, but anything is possible if you are on His side, in my personal opinion (saying that God exists, of course)

{ Psalm 101-6

Why, O Lord, do you stand far away?
Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
2 In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor;
let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised.
3 For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.
4 In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him;
all his thoughts are, "There is no God."
5 His ways prosper at all times;
your judgments are on high, out of his sight;
as for all his foes, he puffs at them.
6 He says in his heart, "I shall not be moved;
throughout all generations I shall not meet adversity."
Etc. etc. }

{ 1 Cor. 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. }

{ James 1:2-3

2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. }

I could go on forever. My resource for these verses I have read in the Bible so I know they are in there, but I found them all quicker by going to

So trouble a tribulation will come to us, but that does not mean God is not real! Not even close! God tests us sometimes, He is all-knowing, so He isn't seeing what you are ready for. He is testing you for you to see. He needs to prepare you. God has a plan for each and every individual and is trying to let them know, "It is time to get going. I have a plan for you and am willing to help, but you have to first open up and accept me."

As you will see over these next few paragraphs, Con has asked many questions and I have specified about 2, so I will be hopping from example to example.

One other addition to Con claiming God let's evil into the earth was a gigantic topic and issue. Not an issue for me, an issue for people who don't fully understand what God's will IS. Con's addition was God has used evil Himself:

God has never used evil and I don't know why you searched the Bible for verses similar to it saying that, I can use one or two of the verses you used and explain them, or I can find my own and explain THEM. I will find my own, maybe 3, and see how much room is left after that for me to type. Here are three to begin with.
(Big chapter, many good verses exactly about this. Psalms 94.)

{ Jeremiah 15

Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
5 "Who will feel sorry for you, Jerusalem?
Who will weep for you?
Who will even bother to ask how you are?
6 You have abandoned me
and turned your back on me,"
says the lord.
"Therefore, I will raise my fist to destroy you.
I am tired of always giving you another chance. }
( "He is destroying? But you said God does no evil!"
God was destroying them because they had done evil things. There will never be a time when God gets bored and will
blow up a place because he is "angry" and has evil built up inside Him.
Think of what would cause the Perfect God to kill? )

{ Exodus 20:4 World famous. What we christians claim to be the "First Commandment"

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them." }

But look, here! The evil people defied his laws and THAT is why he destroys them!

{ Exodus 32

When the people saw how long it was taking Moses to come back down the mountain, they gathered around Aaron. "Come on," they said, "make us some gods who can lead us. We don"t know what happened to this fellow Moses, who brought us here from the land of Egypt." So Aaron said, "Take the gold rings from the ears of your wives and sons and daughters, and bring them to me." All the people took the gold rings from their ears and brought them to Aaron. Then Aaron took the gold, melted it down, and molded it into the shape of a calf. When the people saw it, they exclaimed, "O Israel, these are the gods who brought you out of the land of Egypt!" Aaron saw how excited the people were, so he built an altar in front of the calf.
. . . . .
Then the lord said, "I have seen how stubborn and rebellious these people are. Now leave me alone so my fierce anger can blaze against them, and I will destroy them. Then I will make you, Moses, into a great nation." But Moses tried to pacify the lord his God. "O lord!" he said. "Why are you so angry with your own people whom you brought from the land of Egypt with such great power and such a strong hand? Why let the Egyptians say, "Their God rescued them with the evil intention of slaughtering them in the mountains and wiping them from the face of the earth"? Turn away from your fierce anger. Change your mind about this terrible disaster you have threatened against your people! Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You bound yourself with an oath to them, saying, "I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars of heaven. And I will give them all of this land that I have promised to your descendants, and they will possess it forever."" So the lord changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people.
. . . . .
The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a terrible sin, but I will go back up to the lord on the mountain. Perhaps I will be able to obtain forgiveness for your sin."

You can guess that the Israelites disobeyed again, and they did. This is not a certain race, generation, or even family, every single person dies this. Not as drastic, but each and everyone, including Christians. The only reason God ever uses evil is to rid of it.

I am excited to hear from Con, 1000 Characters up


Thanks Pro.

The responses we get from Pro are absolute nonsense and are not, in any sense or fashion, logical argumentation. I will demonstrate how clearly this is the case.

Before I get into the meat of my case and rebuttals, I would like to pose a question to Pro: why should we believe the Bible? Is there any evidence that the Bible is the true word of God?

I. Problem of Evil

Pro's response to the problem of evil is, simply, that God supposedly created us with free will, with the ability to choose between right and wrong and the ability to choose to believe in Him.

Pro repeatedly claims that free will is somehow better than a world where good is blindly obeyed. Pro never explicates why this is the case, but, more importantly, the idea of free will seems somewhat nonsensical when viewed through the context of an omnipotent and omniscient God. According to Pro, God creates us, and God knows everything. This means that, upon creating, for example, a serial killer, God knew that he would go on to kill many people. Since God has foreknowledge of these events, then God knowingly creates people that will cause enormous amounts of pain and suffering. Exactly why this is necessary remains unclear, especially since God is supposedly omnibenevolent.

Finally, the idea of that God has prescience belies the idea of free will, since your actions are, more or less, predetermined by the God who made you. Simply asserting that the evil could be used for good is not sufficient, and pales next to the reality that a omnipotent God could have done the same amount of good without any suffering whatsoever. A omnibenevolent God could even, in theory, allow for free will, while only creating people he knew would, generally, be moral actors, thus eliminating the worst of the atrocities present in our world. However, this does not occur. A God that would use people as means to an end is a God that does not respect the barest essence of humanity itself.

II. Pascal's Wager

Pro hilariously employs a version of Pascal's wager, which, essentially, states that believing in God is a risk-free endeavor, while atheists, if proven wrong, have a massive penalty (going to Hell).

This "argument" has been debunked so thoroughly it pains me to do so. Four responses:

1) Pascal's wager neglects the fact that there have been literally millions upon millions of gods and deities created throughout human history. The probability of picking the "wrong God," then, seems incredibly high and completely obliterates any probabilistic advantage that belief could have. Remember: an imam, a rabbi, and a tribal chief could each use the exact same argument.

2) There are, essentially, a few basic possible characterizations of God; that is, he could be benevolent, wrathful, or he could not exist at all. In all of these scenarios, abstaining from worship seems the better option, as you would likely be saved by the benevolent God, be punished for wrong belief or petty sins by the wrathful God, or save a lot of time and effort if God does not exist.

3) The idea of Hell seems fundamentally incompatible with an omnibenevolent, merciful God as characterized throughout certain sections of the Bible. The idea that a supposedly just, loving, and kind being would sentence a person to eternal punishment for a temporal crime seems somewhat nebulous.

4) Belief spurred by Pascal's wager is fundamentally inauthentic. If a person's belief in God is solely a pragmatic decision based on confused game theory, that would, likely, be seen as equivalent to nonbelief by a God, since it does not come as a genuine love for and worship of God, as required throughout the Bible. This also erases any gains that belief could give you.

III. Scripture

I would like to note that, in my first argument, I cited several horrible laws and contradictions in the Bible that I challenged Pro to defend. These passages include condoning slavery, misogyny, and stoning virgins. This was not done.

Instead, the response we get is, essentially, "well, we don't know what God really is, so we better just not question the unsavory portions of Scripture." This argument cannot stand against logical inquiry; such arguments and fallacies from ignorance do not constitute defense of the horrible and depraved.

The only other argument we get from Pro is that such horrible acts of genocide, murder, etc., came because people had it coming to them by disobeying a divine law (that they may or may not have actually known about). In one instance, God complains about giving second chances. This, of course, seems to contradict:

"theen Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." - Matthew 18:21-22

So that begs the question which I posed throughout my first argument: is God kind and merciful, or is he wrathful and unforgiving? These are mutually exclusive, and even Scripture cannot seem to decide which is accurate.

Moreover, if God literally destroyed entire cities and populations, surely some marginal amount of relative innocents would be killed as well. This seems unjust and evil itself; moreover, the idea that God is somehow for capital punishment for violating laws seems incompatible as well.

Finally, there are some things in the Bible that have no evidence to support that they actually happened. There is literally no archaeological proof of the Exodus, for example [1]. How can the Bible be accurate if it rests on faulty history?

Pro cannot keep pleading ignorance; I sincerely hope that Pro responds to my arguments and comes up with a better answer than either "we don't know" or "they deserved it."


Combined, my arguments demonstrate that a God in the Judeo-Christian tradition is incredibly unlikely (though I cannot disprove with certainty). Pro's burden is to prove that God exists and that the Bible is a legitimate source of divine revelation. This has not been done, leading to a default Con ballot.


Debate Round No. 2


witheringtrees forfeited this round.


Pro has forfeited the last round, so I have no new material or rebuttals to offer. Simply extend my argumentation through this round, as it has not been rebutted fully.
Debate Round No. 3


witheringtrees forfeited this round.


This has been disappointing. Extend my arguments, and Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
So far both of you are making erroneous claims that neither of you are dismantling.
Posted by witheringtrees 2 years ago
My last post was so very long, Actually had to change the wording at the end... 1000 characters used up exactly. I am perfectly willing and actually wanting you to make super duper long posts like that too! So please read my whole thing. Over time, or all at once I don't care, but I would read your whole thing.

Thank you, again for commenting you too :)
Posted by FatalArchon 2 years ago
WileyC1949 - The fact that evil exists still contradicts an omnibenevolent deity. No matter which way you look at it.

Also you cannot have a deity that is omniscient and allows free will. These terms contradict each other.
To be all knowing, you must have one of the following:
1. You create the universe with a complete plan knowing every choice that will ever be made, thus contradicting free will.
2. You create a free will system and then have no idea whats going to happen thus contradicting omniscience.

Once more, you cannot have a perfectly merciful and perfectly just deity, as these terms also contradict each other.
Especially one that claims perfection as the biblical god does.
1. To be perfectly just, you must punish those who deserve punishment always with the terms of the law you set.
2. To be perfectly merciful, you must give leniency in the face of punishment always..
3. If you cannot be either of these things or both then you are not perfect as claimed by the biblical god.
Posted by WileyC1949 2 years ago
Con.. your suggestion that if God existed then there would be not evil has no basis. You are relying on the Epicurus statement, but you apparently overlooking that simple fact that his statement was illogical. Just because some saying is old and is often repeated does not make that statement logical. He, and you, suggest two alternative choices... either that if God allows evil to exist then He is evil, or that God does not have the power to stop evil. However it completely overlooks a third choice... the fact that evil evil exists for a REASON. Once you see that third choice you can easily figure out what evil, pain, suffering, toil and death actually teach us. Without having the complete free will to select to do any and all evil, even though that leads away from selfless love and God, then we would never have the free will to reject that evil and do the good that leads towards selfless love and God. If you want to know the meaning behind pain, suffering and death look at what they teach us... compassion, sympathy, caring for those out side of our social circle and true selfless love so that we can be one with God.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit is surrender. I rarely award points for ff. Con made some claims I personally can discredit and his central argument I don't concur with. So the convincing points are awarded because from an unbiased POV he made a more detailed argument. Both provided reliable sources, neither provided a "most".
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.