The Instigator
FishAndChips22
Con (against)
The Contender
CrypticIndividual
Pro (for)

Does God Exist?

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Time Remaining
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 395 times Debate No: 104250
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

FishAndChips22

Con



Rules
1.)
No personal attacks
2.) Stay on Topic
3.) USE FACTS WITH SOURCES TO BACK THEM UP, lack of sources mean your "facts" will be treated as FALSE by both me and the reader
4.) No "Kritiks"
5.) No Trolling, spamming, etc... common sense
6.) If you're going to call something false, show HOW it is false

Structure-
Round 1 : Acceptance/definitions
Round 2: Each side presents argument (NO REBUTTALS YET)
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: Closing Arguments (No new arguments)

God- an all-knowing, all-good being credited with the formation and stucture of life
CrypticIndividual

Pro

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
FishAndChips22

Con

Point 1 - No evidence that I am aware of.
Religious people often use the absence of evidence for something as evidence that there is a superior being responsible for the creation of this unknown object. This shows itself throughout history, one example is the ancient Greeks who used Gods to explain the nature of weather, oceans, harvest, etc. Many people view this as silly and foolish; however, the vast majority of these people are mirroring the behavior of the Greeks. One example is the creation of the universe. We, so far, do not have solid proof of what exactly caused the Big Bang. However, the absence of evidence for one thing is not evidence for another. Here's an analogy I like to use... Lets say there is the problem of a missing cookie from the cookie jar (represents the creation of the universe in this case) and I think my younger brother Matt took it (Matt represents God), however, one of my other 12 siblings could have taken the cookie (they represent scientific theories). It sounds incredibly stupid if I say "Well, while there's no evidence Matt took the cookie... there's no evidence the other 12 took it either (theories, such as String theory, do have evidence or fluent mathematics; however)... so Matt must've taken it". You would either have to directly prove Matt/God took the cookie, or show that the other 12 siblings didn't take the cookie. In other words, you would have to disprove every aspect of every single scientific theory that exists pertaining to the creation of the universe... which is impossible. So, essentially, the only way is to show directly that God created the universe... however this no evidence of that. Others use the Bible as evidence for God; however, one does not need to go very far into religion to realize how unreliable the Bible is. It imprudently states that the Earth is 6000 years old, that people live up to 900 years, etc. The Earth has been proved to be older than 6000 years old via radiometric dating [1] and it is simply medically impossible to live to 900 years, in fact, the limit has been shown to be 115 years [2] (there are a few exceptions, one woman lived to 122). People should not follow something so blindly that is so unreliable, the Bible, and other religious texts, is full of such lies and misleading statements as I have shown. A scientific textbook gets recalled for having a single error, while the Bible has an abundance of inaccurate information.

Point 2 - Numerous religions.
It has been estimated that there are currently roughly 4,200 religions [3] throughout the world. So, why so many? I believe that it is simple... because religions are created purely by humans. A "God" did not invent these religions personally, rather, an individual or a group of individuals had their own philosophy about life. Humans have selfishly throughout history depicted God as a human in paintings. There never was a God, humans simply invented him/her/it. The Catholic Church has been known for manipulating the public in the past by using religion in order to give themselves more wealth. Indulgences [4] (paying for your sins) are just one example. Most people here are most likely familiar with the Church's misdoings if they have had past an 8th grade education.

Point 3 - Numerous Imperfections
If the sole purpose of this planet is to make the human species survive... then why are there so many imperfections? Between 1994 and 2013, roughly 1.35 million people have died of natural disasters with roughly 218 million being affected [5]. Annually, roughly 6 million babies die almost immediately at birth [6]. 95% of the world's population have health problems, a third of them have more than 5 health problems [7]. Why do humans have goosebump, a tailbone, and an appendix if they are completely useless. That's just the tip of the iceberge. What about the universe? The universe is 96 BILLION light years in diameter [8], if the Earth is the only thing that matters in the universe, then why make it so large? The vast majority of the universe is impossible to explore because, due to the accelerating expansion of the universe, it is receding from us faster than the ultimate speed limit.. the speed of light. To give you a picture of how vast the universe is... imagine the entire solar system as a grain of sand... the Milky Way galaxy ALONE would be the size of the continental U.S. If we took the Milky Way and shrunk it down to the size of a mere dinner plate... the observable universe would be the size of the continental United States. There are around 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, each containing hundreds of billions of stars who each contain exoplanets/planets. Meaning, there are roughly 10^24 [9] or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the observable universe alone, you can not tell me that you expect to be special out of so vast a number. There are easily billions of planets just like our own Earth in just our own Milky Way galaxy. Even if the probability of a planet just like Earth arising was 0.000000000000001%, there would still be 10,000,000,000 Earth-Like planets in the observable universe. And that's only talking about the observable universe, the physical universe COULD contain an infinite amount of planets, meaning, an infinite number of Earth-like planets regardless of the probability (Infinity is not a number, Infinity times .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 is still Infinity). Those are just the physical imperfections, what about the moral ones?
I can not believe in a god with so many mass genocides, slaughterings, etc.
God and the Holocaust can not coexist, where around 6.2 million people died [10]
God and the Native American genocide can not coexist, where roughly 90% of Native Americans died from disease [11]
God and the Soviet famine can not coexist, where around 7.5 million people starved [10]
God and the Cambodian genocide cannot exist, where 1.7-3million people died [10]
God and the Armenian genocide can not exist, where around 800,000-1.5million people died [10]
This is just the tip of the iceberg yet again, an abundance of inhumane atrocities have happened throughout the course of history, yet, they have never been stopped. That is simply because there is no God to stop them.


Links
[1] http://www.smithsonianmag.com............
[2] http://www.nytimes.com............
[3] https://www.reference.com............
[4] https://www.britannica.com............
[5] http://reliefweb.int............
[6] http://www.savethechildren.org............;
[7] https://www.sciencedaily.com............
[8] http://www.space.com............
[9] http://scienceblogs.com............
[10] https://en.wikipedia.org.........;
[11] https://en.wikipedia.org.........;
CrypticIndividual

Pro

Point 1:

I do agree with you on a lot of this, as I have many of the same opinions. People are very quick to criticize other religions for being unrealistic, when, without evidence, their religion would seem just as unrealistic. The thing is that there is quite a lot of evidence for the existence of a God. The fine-tuning theory can seem silly if not explained properly, so I will try to explain it the best I can. Think of every famous man-made wonder, each taking many years to create well enough to be considered a wonder. If someone were to tell you that this was made by an unintelligent process of rocks falling together, you would easily scoff at the idea, yet when people suggest that humans, each being trillions of times more complicated than all of those wonders combined, were made in such a process, people consider that as more logical and science-based than the alternative. About your analogy, the other theories are far more unlikely than the theory of God existing, therefore, Theism is more logical. There are errors in the Bible, I definitely agree. The Bible was made by human, not by god, so I wouldn't take some certain instances of bad logic in the Bible too seriously.

There is also some evidence that the Christian god is the correct one. There have been many prophecies in the Bible that have come true such as Isaiah 44:27-45:3, Zechariah 11:12-13, Zechariah 12:10, Isaiah 13:17-22, and Jeremiah 31:38-40. There are many other examples that you can easily find if you look them up

Point 2:

This point would be a good point if there was no evidence for the existence of God. People could have thought the religions explained the unusual way the universe works when they invented them, but this point can be put to the side as I have given evidence that Christianity is the true religion.

Point 3:

The reason behind death is that if we never had natural disasters and health problems, there would be overpopulation. Death is a natural part about life, besides, according to the Bible, after death occurs, people would go to heaven and be judged. The goosebumps, appendix, and tailbone were gained from our animal ancestors. Your point about the amount of planets that can sustain life does explain how we have such a planet, yet the other things which I have mentioned have not been explained by that.

Also, about the genocides, God gives people free will, He needs to in order to judge them, therefore, He has reason to allow the genocides.

I hope that I managed to get to all of your points, if I missed any then please tell me.

Sources:
http://www.reasons.org...
http://www.alwaysbeready.com...
https://www.jw.org...
https://bible.org...
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 3 months ago
CrypticIndividual
@mikelaw That argument wasn't my only argument for this debate. It does make sense, at least more sense than such complex and perfect laws of physics and objects being created in a mindless process. It wasn't to prove that Christianity is correct, it was only to show that Atheism isn't incredibly logical. I did make a few other points supporting the existence of God.
Posted by mikelaw 3 months ago
mikelaw
Simple is better!

You cannot prove any idea i have manifested in my own mind as false. Just as you cannot prove existence of a god is false. So ideas born of the imagination cannot be proven or disproved really.

I guess the fact is you cannot prove the existence of a made up idea as there will be no proof of either existence or non-existence. Especially when the idea can sit outside of our scope of observation. The idea of a god is way outside our scope of observation. There's a reason for that.

So by that are we to assume for eternity that a god could exist, based on the unfounded ideologies of our uninformed non-technologically advanced ancestors?

To believe in religion you must have an open mind. However, to dedicate to religion you must close your mind to other ideas/religions.

Believing is more then just having an open mind. The very foundation of religion is to believe without facts, evidence or proof. Funny enough, this is also the foundation to manipulation.

So does god exist? The idea certainly exists, but there is no evidence that the idea is anything more then a lie formed thousands of years ago. In a bid to accumulate followers. At the end of the day, the only true power in all of society are followers. What people choose to follow along with others, are nothing more than tools of manipulation. Where the people that generate these followers gain unprecedented power in the form of words, through the actions of the people following the words.
Posted by mikelaw 3 months ago
mikelaw
Simple is better!

You cannot prove any idea i have manifested in my own mind as false. Just as you cannot prove existence of a god is false. So ideas born of the imagination cannot be proven or disproved really.

I guess the fact is you cannot prove the existence of a made up idea as there will be no proof of either existence or non-existence. Especially when the idea can sit outside of our scope of observation. The idea of a god is way outside our scope of observation. There's a reason for that.

So by that are we to assume for eternity that a god could exist, based on the unfounded ideologies of our uninformed non-technologically advanced ancestors?

To believe in religion you must have an open mind. However, to dedicate to religion you must close your mind to other ideas/religions.

Believing is more then just having an open mind. The very foundation of religion is to believe without facts, evidence or proof. Funny enough, this is also the foundation to manipulation.

So does god exist? The idea certainly exists, but there is no evidence that the idea is anything more then a lie formed thousands of years ago. In a bid to accumulate followers. At the end of the day, the only true power in all of society are followers. What people choose to follow along with others, are nothing more than tools of manipulation. Where the people that generate these followers gain unprecedented power in the form of words, through the actions of the people following the words.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 3 months ago
CrypticIndividual
@DjDoug The idea of God is not necessarily that he was created by the universe, it is more that there is a God that was eternal. I must admit, though, it is not my favorite argument as it doesn't make sense in our view of logic. I understand completely if you ignore this argument in the overall scope of the debate.
Posted by DjDoug 3 months ago
DjDoug
I never did like the watchmaker argument that pro is using such that if the universe is a complex thing it needs a creator but this argument falls apart as that creator would need an even more complex being to create it and creates an infinite regression.
Posted by DjDoug 3 months ago
DjDoug
I never did like the watchmaker argument that pro is using such that if the universe is a complex thing it needs a creator but this argument falls apart as that creator would need an even more complex being to create it and creates an infinite regression.
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