The Instigator
RhodesianPoet
Con (against)
The Contender
TheThinker01
Pro (for)

Does God Wisely Know What He or She"s Doing?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/12/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 94 times Debate No: 96941
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
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RhodesianPoet

Con

What is the evidence that God knows what he"s doing? She created a Garden of Eden that collapsed after just one sin, thus ruining the entire cosmos. What kind of planning and love is that? He felt that he had to flood the Earth and kill everything on it to start over, but didn"t change the DNA of the human species that had been "infected" and "depraved" by sin. So the same pattern of rebellion against God was virtually guaranteed to happen again, even though God would continue to blame humans 100% for their actions regardless of the significant moral, intellectual and emotional weaknesses they received at birth. What could describe a more embarrassing track record of mismanagement and waste? She placed us on planet Earth, which is largely inhospitable to human life. Only through over 100,000 years of perseverance toward technological, social and ethical development has our species learned how to survive consistently. Before the 20th century, the expected life span for all human history was 35-40 years or even lower. During that lifetime, people suffered from disease, famine, attacks by predatory creatures, ignorance, violence, fear, natural disasters, dread, etc., often limited like wild animals in the midst of a labyrinth of dangers and terrifying surprises, with no guarantee of anything beneficent or providential.

Traditional monotheism certainly wasn"t obvious to 99% of world cultures throughout history, as only the three Abrahamic faiths and Zoroastrians believed that way. Comfort, guidance and protection deriving from a perfectly good, wise and powerful God eluded humans in their billions by no fault of their own " the genetic hardwiring of their brains didn"t lead them inevitably to see the world as being rooted in something other than pantheism, animism, polytheism, atheism, deism or panentheism. God made a cosmos that is built on the necessity of continual cycles in destruction-creation and life-death. Without the death of stars, there would be no galaxies or life in the universe. Without biological death and life processes integrated together, the Earth"s ecosystem would not function. The orthodox Christian assertion of a "safe" environment for human (or other) life in the Garden of Eden is completely implausible given these realities. God made a dangerous universe from the beginning. There"s no evidence of a biblical Fall away from an earlier utopian origin. The Bible says that in the future God will create a New Heavens and New Earth that is systematically designed to be without sin, death and severe pain and yet many people will be there who didn"t choose Christ " babies, the mentally handicapped and perhaps the unevangelized as well. So, why would God make our current universe so harsh and baffling? And why hide or make unintelligible the various essential revelations of God from most people for most of history?

Given what I"ve said above, why would it be rational to trust that God is looking out for our welfare, here or in the afterlife? I can see goodness and wonder in nature, yet there is also a vast range in types of suffering, waste and tragedy awaiting living things on this planet. This is not because of sin. The universe has been like this since shortly after its existence was inaugurated 13.7 billion years ago. A conservative young earth creationist who wants to maintain that the cosmos began 6,000-10,000 years ago is stuck in the dilemma of explaining how the biology, physics, geology, chemistry, etc. of such a recent start could match with with the radically contrasting record found in the field of natural history and all other areas of science which have been studied and verified for centuries, many times by researchers with Christian beliefs.

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(See 20+ articles like this that I've written here: disagreementsihavewithchristianity.wordpress.com. I welcome feedback.)
TheThinker01

Pro

Before I start, let me introduce myself, as a muslim who would be an athiest if it wasn't for certain profound verses (scientific, poetic ect.) of the Quran, that can't possibly have been authored (authored not written) by man. So if it wasn't forIslam I'd be athiest as it's the only other logical choice. I also agree that the Bible (not Christianity) is 100% scientifically and sociologically illogical.

I absolutely admire your reasoning, and ability to question, however I hope this is a result of open-mindedness and not close minded, hard athiesm and personal issues that allow the need for these questions and criticisms. I'll mention again. The questions you ask are perfect and very philosophical and logical.

Just so you know, this is my first formal debate online, so I'm not very familiar with the common styles, and structures. However I am a very experienced debater in general.

My style would need you to answer certain questions about yourself if you don't mind. As I don't want to give you arguments that you would (not to my knowledge), deem irrelevant, red-herrings ect.

For example if I were debating against what I thought were your Christian views If you were an athiest.

So,

What religion/ religious classification are you currently standing by?

Would you willing to accept an Islamic point of view from me, or do you only want sociological arguments, and arguments that support the Christian point of view?

I want to answer your questions as well as possible. As most of your first comment is made up of Questions.

I can start by differentiating my Muslim beliefs by the Christian views you are concerned with.

Regarding the Garden of Eden. In Islam God has always intentionally had a reason for Sin,

Quran 2.30
*And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."*

This is why he created Satan in the first place (in Christianity satan was an angel, never meant to sin). He created Satan (Shaytaan) out of fire and gave him free will, the angels (without free will) however were created from light (or Arabic word for "pure energy"). This caused Satan to grow in pride,and had the ability to Sin.

When Adam was created and exalted above all creation, Satan out of jealousy would then be determined to use Adams shared gift of free will, and cause him to sin. This is exactly how God had planned.

*Quran 2.36-39* (focus on last 2 verses)

"But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
*We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."*

24.21
"O you who have believed, do not follow the footsteps of Satan. And whoever follows the footsteps of Satan - indeed, he enjoins immorality and wrongdoing. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have been pure, ever, but Allah purifies whom He wills, and Allah is Hearing and Knowing."
26
"Evil words are for evil men, and evil men are [subjected] to evil words. And good words are for good men, and good men are [an object] of good words. Those [good people] are declared innocent of what the slanderers say. For them is forgiveness and noble provision"

http://www.iqrasense.com...

You may find it unfair that God leaves us in this empty pit with Satan, and we're alone to face him. In Christianity apparently your not alone, God is with you all along the way apparently, even though you may die a homeless man?

In Islam however, you may be able to pray to God, but he has placed his angels on earth to guard you and protect you from sin. This is stated in a hadith. You have an angel guarding above,in front, behind, left and right, who also are witness to every sin you commit. Also those who don't commit sin, and keep they're houses clean and how God commands for they're safety andd health, have other angels guarding they're house from sin and and temptation (satan).

http://home.earthlink.net...

So I recall you asking what kind of love and planning it is. When in Islam, it is the best of planning, and shows how life is a test, and God makes it easier for you. He gives you 3 Holy books, 5,000 messengers one to each nation, Imams, and angels to help you.

Isn't this a lot more logical than "being strengthened by the Holy spirit".

In Islam God never flooded the entire earth, it was a local flood, (this Islamic account has been archaeogically proven to be true) killing everyone descended from Cain and Seth around Iraq and Syria. They deserved this as God was personally giving them the message, they believed in God yet rejected him and followed Satan, God did have mercy on them, this is why he continuously tried to save them for hundreds (maybe 2000) of years. Isn't this also much more logical, and it also explains how we still have animals in the north and south pole.

In Islam god doesn't 100% blame humans for those reasons. If your a non muslim, you go straight to hell, for not believing in Shahadah. A muslim who is sinfull, would go to hell for a certain amount of time and then recieve heaven. You do get Hajj, Ramadan, Maharam, Eid, Charity and prayer to cleanse your sins. Hajj for someone else, Ramadan also takes away every sin committed in one year. Doing all of these substantially would produce a sinless man, this is mercy from God you don't find in Christianity.

Also when you die, we Muslims pray for and bless the deceased which would also relieve him of quite alot sin.There were around 1000 people doing this for my grandad, we have a huge family. You can even do Hajj for them which takes away your every sin.

Isn't this more reasonable than believe in the lord Jesus Christ..... who I just killed told to go to hell for a while, and you will be saved?

Your next point about human development being our only option given by God. Well, well, you'd think so (I would too) but that's not true. Shariah Law was the first complete law system on earth founded in the 600's. So while we muslims had a 100% successfull law system, europeans were trialing witches to death. Fast forward 700 years and the europeans had trial by cake (where you were 100% likely to choke on a cake they forced you to eat, which would mean your guilty and sentenced to death by a list of ridiculous feats you can't possibly survive).

Fast forward to 1950's and that's when things had only started to change. When was Shariah law founded again?......the 600's. Please ask me something about diseases I have an amazing answer for you, not even so much to do with Islam.

Also your questions about heaven and how Christianity is unfair. Islam (whenever I say Islam I mean the Quran) has exceptions of punishment for certain people. Being martyrs (righteous deceased soldiers, and innocent children), those who have never heard of warnings, messengers, Imams, scripture (Quran, Injeel, Torah, Scrolls of Abraham, Psalms, Hadith), including those before scripture and messengers and of course some the disabled (of course not if you've just lost your leg) would be pardoned.

Thank you, I hope I've answered some of your questions.

By the way, I hope for this to be more of a discussion than debate
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Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by TheThinker01 3 weeks ago
TheThinker01
Also in Islam the word "Allah", is neither masculine or feminine, so (G)od is neither a man or woman, incomparable to his creation or any other (g)od ("Illah). He also refers to himself using the royal "We", rather than I.

I forgot to mention, angels in Islam pray without free will, so God loves humans (Muslims) much more, as they pray out of thier own choice (free will). This is why in Islam those who pray will probably (we can't exactly say as only God knows) go to heaven, with very little or no time in hell.

Now human can predict who (G)od decides goes to heaven or hell, so therefore non-muslims also have a small chance of paradise.

There's a hadith where someone asks the prophet himself if he'd go to heaven, and even he said "I don't know".

God is most forgiving, most merciful.
Posted by missmedic 3 weeks ago
missmedic
If there is a real and perfect god, it is not a Christian god. For a god to exist it must do so without contradiction and there is no god invented by man that is not without contradiction.
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