The Instigator
emsiblook
Con (against)
The Contender
K.Cross12
Pro (for)

Does God exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/18/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,699 times Debate No: 105164
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (53)
Votes (0)

 

emsiblook

Con

I used about 5000 characters in my first round on my last debate so I'm going to try to be a bit less intimidating this time.

I don't think that God exists. I used to be a Christian but now, I just think, there's no evidence, how can I just blindly believe in a God?

We can never truly know if a God exists, but evidence would help, and there's no reason for me to believe it otherwise.

I need you to believe that God does exist, for you to debate me on this.
K.Cross12

Pro

Okay, first I have to ask you then, what exactly do you believe? Are you an atheist or evolutionist, or other? This will help me better to prove to you that God does exist. I also feel like you do still believe in God enough to capitalize His name. Which means you still have some respect or belief in Him.
Debate Round No. 1
emsiblook

Con

As KrWm said, I don't know why knowing my religious affiliation makes any difference, but giving you the benefit of the doubt/confusion, I am an atheist. I don't believe in it if it doesn't have evidence. That's what it means, a lack of belief.

And no, I disagree with the capitalising point. I don't believe in God (or god, or gods lol, whatever you want). The fact that I believe in one is a belief you hold lol. If you believe that, I don't know how I can disprove that because evidence can't affect beliefs, right?

Anyway, the Bible is considered the word of God. But it was written 1000s of years ago, translated into different languages God-knows how many times. /God/ knows. It was written by people, who claimed to be writing the word of God. They were all different people, with no proof that they had any authority from God; and the word of God has been changed so much to suit different periods in history, with different views on things. How can this be considered reliable?

Also how can the Old Testament and New Testament have so many contradicting scriptures, which makes no sense?

And if we get into the other religions, we have the Quoran, which still defames women and promotes violence.

But if we're talking about God overall, as an entity... if he is so loving and powerful, why does he allow the suffering of his followers? Natural disasters, crime, cancer etc. His followers are supposed to be empowered by God, so how come they suffer like everyone else? How do we have good atheists and bad Christians/Jews/Muslims etc.?
K.Cross12

Pro

Actually, thank you, now I better understand where you are. Atheism is where you don't deny God but you need more proof of Him to believe, right? There is evidence that God is real. To start off, people have their own beliefs. Like, maybe, you believe cats are better than dogs and I believe vice versa. Everyone has a doubt about something. Do I fully understand why God does or lets the things that happens in our lives happen? Absolutely not. But it's just like not knowing why parents spank or yell at their children if they love them, right? Don't get me wrong I don't agree on everything that God lets happen to me or to us. It's frustrating and I question Him all the time and He knows that, but that does not mean I'm going to stop believing and loving Him. Same goes for if you had a kid; you know kids mess up all the time or do things that you don't understand why they did it. Do you stop loving them and give up on them? And yes, He is powerful. Why does he let people suffer? It's because of sin. When the world was created people were perfect but don't mistake being perfect and being able to sin. Understand this first ,if everything was perfect , nothing was able to go wrong unless someone who was given the choice to choose between sinning and being perfect. When Adam and Eve chose to sin, it was like a domino effect. It's like when you set those dominos up , it's perfect. Nothing is wrong with them unless someone decides to knock them down. The first domino knocks the next, and the next knocks the other, and so on. That is how sin is, it always causes something to happen because we mess up. God still gives us choices and the choices we make decides whether we get knocked down and affect someone else . I would say there was another option but there's not. We are all sinful by nature.

Also about the Bible, yes, it was written by many different people, but they were people who has seen God or heard God, maybe both. And, yes, it has been translated for people to better understand. Okay duh, that makes sense, if you want to get information out to the world that is what you got to do. There are also places and things in the Bible that were found 1,000 of years later. From what I'm taking in is that you have never read the Bible completely, so you are just going based off what somebody had told you. Lol. If you don't believe that the Bible is accurate , then you must not believe in science or history. I'm still trying to figure out how people can believe those are accurate and not the Bible. Because ,first, science is mostly based on people's theories. And what is the definition of theory? Oh yeah, something that was never proven to be accurate, yet, you still believe that the earth popped out of nowhere and nothing.Like evolution is a big one, that topic I will get on later. To clear the floor all I'm saying is that just because you have not found the proof you needed, doesn't mean it was never there. I have never seen God, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Just like love, I can't see love but we have that it could be love. Math doesn't makes sense to me. Also math and science are contradicting, which makes no sense. What's the difference?

And I'm not talking about other religions, Muslims and whoever actually believe in the actual God has switched up the scripture or comprehended it way differently, They also don't believe that Jesus is God too, which I'm not going to explain to you right now because you're already having a hard time believing if all this religion stuff is real. No offense.
Debate Round No. 2
emsiblook

Con

Where is the evidence that God is real? You say everyone has different beliefs as if that itself is evidence of God. I could believe that the earth is flat, indeed believe that cats are better than dogs, but that would not make it so. That would not be evidence. But we /know/ that the earth is not flat, because there is /evidence/ for it. We have been into space and seen how the earth rotates, with camera footage. Which came thousands of years after Aristotle observed that "there are stars seen in Egypt and Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions"; this showed that not everywhere in the world shared the same sky; so this could have only happened on a curved surface.
Even then, this wasn't a 'belief', it was theory, an observation, made by /observing/ existing things and making a conclusion from it. Observations and therefore theories can only be made with evidence! They are not beliefs.

Comparing parents telling their naughty children off, to terrible disasters in the world where thousands of innocent people are killed, just makes no sense. What is the message God is sending? Children starving in Africa aren't starving because they disobeyed God. They are going through absolute crap, for no good reason. We get no explanation of this from God. And we're supposed to just 'have faith' in him? What bullsht. If God were real and all-powerful, he would be worse than Hitler. I'd rather go to hell.

Even if parents spank or yell at their kids, what good parent wouldn't tell their child what they did wrong? Why would a parent leave a child in utter confusion as to what they did wrong, but still with the knowledge that they did something wrong? How are they supposed to learn from that?

He lets people suffer because of sin? Because of two silly people 6000 years ago who spoke to a talking snake and picked a fruit which is somehow sinful, every child they had, had to suffer from the parents' actions even though they did nothing?
How is that just?
So because we are all sinners, somehow tsunamis and hurricanes, and accidental fires wreak havoc in the world.
If God foresaw this would happen, because he is all-knowing, why did he let it happen?

How do you know if those people had seen God and they weren't just crazy? There's no evidence for it. It's been translated back and forth so many times, surely words and phrases have been removed, added, changed throughout the years, either accidentally or because someone didn't like something God said in the Bible.
Maybe there were places and things that were found in the Bible. No one's going to make up whole places off the top of their head and then call it fact. Eastenders is set in London, does that make it fact?
Or maybe there were objects and bodies found that prove Jesus existed. That doesn't prove he walked on water, turned water into wine or came from God. Because what we want to prove is that God existed, not that certain people or things existed. That's the problem here.

Where is your basis of the idea that I haven't read the Bible completely. I might have or I might not. Explain what makes you say that before assuming.
Because if you're talking about contradictions and offensive scriptures in the Bible:

Genesis 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

Psalms 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer.
Psalms 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help.

Like history, the Bible has many inconsistencies, yet many accuracies in terms of places and things that happened. Evidence has contradicted many things written in the Bible just like in history. The difference is, that in history, we recognise these inconsistences and we change history to make it more accurate. The Bible is a book that was written as 'the perfect, unchanging word of God' which is 'always right'. When there are inconsistencies in the Bible, we just either ignore the evidence or call it a 'metaphor'.

And when it comes to evidence, it's the same with science. Science doesn't claim to be 'perfect' like the Bible, but what it does do is correct itself every time a new piece of evidence comes along. It may be wrong, but it corrects itself all the time to make it right. That is why we call science and history more reliable than the Bible.

Theories never claim to be fact either. The reason we accept them is because there is evidence to suggest they may be true. Theories are based on logic, as well as evidence. Like evidence for the 'earth popping out of nowhere' being redshifts, and cosmic background radiation, which scientists have observed that this could have only happened if the Universe was constantly expanding, thus suggesting the Big Bang. It's not a belief. And it's not fact. It's an idea for something that could have happened which is based on logic and reasoning. Which is more solid than any case you'll ever see for God existing!
Okay so just because there is no proof doesn't mean it was never there. But if there's no evidence for God, I'm not just going to believe he's there because he might be there. I need proof. I could believe in unicorns and fairies and that would hold just as much substance as believing in God. So why should I believe in God over anything else lol?
The love analogy. Oh, but there is even evidence for love! Like the Big Bang, we may not directly be able to prove that it exists, but we can measure and observe patterns of emotions that emerge when someone thinks about a certain someone that suggest 'love'. Brain scans have shown that certain areas of the brain light up when we think about someone we love. There is also a mathematical formula that mathematician Hannah Fry came up with to measure the success of a relationship. I'm not going into it here but you can look it up. Love is a name we give to feelings that people have for each other.
Yet we don't get that level of measurability for 'God'. There's no way of measuring sin, prayers, or God's love. God is a name we give to... a being in the sky. A bit vague, because there is no /observable/ being in the sky. Because of this, we haven't been able to say that any of this exists. You see the difference?

How are maths and science contradicting, and how does maths not make sense? Explain?

You're not talking about other religions, but I'm not specifically talking about Christianity. I'm talking about the idea of a God or gods themselves. I wanted to expand the scope on other views on God. All religions comprehend God differently, so how would one come to the conclusion that any one of these hundreds of religions is the correct one?

Woot, and we come to the end of my turn lol, that was long. I'm so tired. God get me through this lethargy. Over to you :3
K.Cross12

Pro

First of all, never have I said that belief is evidence. You need to read more carefully. Actually it does makes sense for me to compare children and parents to God and us. It basically means that I am saying we are God's children. Why would a parent leave a child in utter confusion? Dude, I'm a kid too, How am I suppose to know? Maybe an adult can comment for our answer. Maybe they are waiting for us to learn and fix it ourselves. We can't be babied for the rest of our lives right? And just as a parent corrects , God does too. Do you believe that they get punished for No reason? Like come on,now. We've all done something bad more than 20 times, maybe even 100. What comes around goes around, right? Children starving in Africa is because the effects of sin. Its like if someone gets rape. It's not the victim's fault, it's the human being who decided to do wrong and now it effected another human being. We are ALL sinners. None of us is perfect. God doesn't kill, we do. Therefore, how can He be like Hitler? We are the ones destroying, He's actually doing what we want which is giving us free will. And doing wrong is how we are using it. Don't get me wrong though, we do have good people in the world , who do good things, but that doesn't change the fact that they have sinned. Tell me one person you know who has never done at least two of these things in there lifetime: Lied, judge someone, talked about someone either verbally or mentally, cheated, murdered, doing stuff that is illegal to the law, or , even, the smallest bad thing like littering. If you rather go to hell, then fine I'm not stopping you. Goodluck! I'll go on to someone who actually will have an open heart, if they want to go to hell, then I'll be on to the next. To be honest, the questions like why would He let all of this happen if he saw it coming are questions I ask my religion teacher all the time. I don't know. We don't know, exactly what God is planning. Our God is a mysterious God, and that's what I like about Him( Not all the time). And just to let you know, the Bible is history. The Bible had the events of what happened a long time ago of early civilizations. If the Bible was lying how did the Israelites came to be or even today Israel. They were brought from God through Abraham and all the other people who have experienced the early ages when they could see God. Or explain to me different languages. If we came from evolution, I'm not saying you believe in that, but if we were one particularly species, living in one area; what was the need for different languages? We would have not separated our languages if that's the case. And if humans came from the same species of whatever, apes or I don't know; how do you get so many different races, colors, shape of eyes , different hair texture, and etc. Now that doesn't make sense to me. Lol and it sounds to me that you are mad that you didn't see Jesus's miracles. I mean duh, how are they suppose to have proof that He walked on water? Video tape? If they was to draw Him, ya'll would've said that it was somebody's imagination or that they were crazy.

I'm sorry but let me just ask, Do you think God has a body? Like do you think that we are going to find a piece of His hair on earth? Come on now be smarter than that. Like what exactly are you looking for? The closest body form we can get from God is Jesus. We have Mary and Joseph who was documented to be true and Jesus which nonbelievers and believers knew to lived. Before that God told the people before Jesus's birth that He was going to be born and die for us all. With that being said that means someone had to tell them the future who already knew the future( I know I didn't word that right).

God is forgiving, that's what you don't understand. Also you comprehended that verse wrong. God talks in pictures for us to better understand if you understand Him. When He says that you will die for in that day you eat the apple, He was talking about him being as a perfect person. His sinless self did die and from there on he was a sinner.If God was to let Adam die that very day, we wouldn't be here. And as much as I don't like this world,sometimes, I'm pretty happy that I was born.-For Genesis 2:17

And God never forsakes unless they went to hell. David who wrote that, is actually assuming; that is the way he feels. That doesn't mean that is what God did. He does answer. It's either a" yes, no, or I have something better". Just because He loves us does not mean He has to give us everything that we want.

My suggestion is to read about the dead sea scrolls. Also, Caesar confirmed the Jesus's resurrection.
The Epic of Gilgamesh includes the Babylonian Flood Story. Again, the biblical record is greatly superior. As Nozomi Osanai wrote in her master"s thesis on a comparison between Noah"s Flood and the Gilgamesh Epic, """According to the specifics, scientific reliability, internal consistency, the correspondence to the secular records, and the existence of common elements among the flood traditions around the world, the Genesis account seems to be more acceptable as an accurate historical record.
Abrahams home city of Ur was excavated by Sir Leonard Woolley, with surprising evidence of near-luxury.2
The customs of Patriarchal times, as described in the Bible, are endorsed by archaeological finds at such places as Ur, Mari, Boghazkoi, and Nineveh. These were written records from that day"not just put down in writing many centuries later. They bear the marks of eyewitness reporting.
Isaiah 20:1 was challenged by critics because they knew of no king named Sargon in lists of Assyrian kings. Now Sargons palace has been recovered at Khorsabad, including a wall inscription and a library record endorsing the battle against the Philistine city of Ashdod (mentioned in Isaiah 20:1).
The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah also shows an old form of the Hebrew letter "tau," " which looks like an""X" in the margin of the scroll. It occurs 11 times, at Isaiah 32:1, 42:1, 42:5, 42:19, 44:28, 49:5""7, 55:3""4, 56:1""2, 56:3, 58:13, and Isaiah 66:5. As already stated, both the records of the Assyrians and the Dead Sea Scrolls (with a near-complete copy of Isaiah) were totally hidden from human eyes for about 2,000 years. Most of the content of these two sources overlapped and thus confirmed the evidence for the genuineness of the prophecies of Isaiah.

An important point about the finding of these scrolls is that they relate to the uncovering of the Assyrian palaces from the 1840s onwards. Isaiah gives a number of historical facts relating to the Assyrians that remarkably confirm the accuracy of Isaiah.

Possibly, the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls is one of the most wonderful facts regarding the relevance of biblical archaeology and the Bible.
Evolutionists commonly answer the above criticism by claiming that evolution goes too slowly for us to see it happening today. They used to claim that the real evidence for evolution was in the fossil record of the past, but the fact is that the billions of known fossils do not include a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving.
Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion . . . it followed logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to the more evolved
Even with DNA sequence data, we have no direct access to the processes of evolution, so objective reconstruction of the vanished past can be achieved only by creative imagination.
Since there is no real scientific evidence that evolution is occurring at present or ever occurred in the past, it is reasonable to conclude that evolution is not a fact of science. Actually, these negative evidences against evolution are, at the same time, strong positive evidences for special creation. DON"T MIND THE EXTRA LETTERING STUff IDK what it is
Debate Round No. 3
emsiblook

Con

You said 'everyone has different beliefs', what point is that proving? That doesn't mean he exists.

Look, the relationship God has with his followers is very, very far off from a relationship between a parental figure and child. Not a good comparison. Wiping out whole civilisations is not comparable to a parent telling their child off lol.
Do I believe that they get punished for no reason? Of course I do. Your idea that sin has an impact on others doesn't apply to every situation. So if Hurricane Irma creates an absolute ghost town out of a Carribean Island, that's because someone committed burglary, rape, murder and the whole town suffers that one person's sin? Yeah I don't think so. In this case, no one caused this to happen by an act of sin - a hurricane is an act of God.
Even in your analogy, if a rape victim gets punished for the rapist's actions, how is that just? The rapist isn't being punished. So what is being solved here? That's nothing like a parent punishing their kid!

Of course we have good people in the world. Even some who are (God forbid!) not Christians lol. But even if they sin a little, they are sent straight to hell along with the murderers and rapists. Meanwhile the Christians, of whom all have still sinned, and of whom a small minority committed horrible atrocities, still get sent to heaven because they remembered to say 'sorry God'.
There's no evidence for hell so I don't believe I am going there. I'd rather just live my life, than live in constant fear that I might go to hell if I don't bow to God's, very flawed, will. Honestly though, Christianity is a fear-mongering religion. I myself was scared by videos on YouTube of what happens if I don't repent to God. That's how I became Christian and I believe many young children were conditioned into believing this. Eternal fire? That's not just. God would be worse than an oppressive dictator, I'm pretty sure he's killed more people than any of the major terrorists combined.

I feel like the saying 'God works in mysterious ways' is something that Christians say whenever they don't know the answer to something. It's an answer they can always give that means they're never wrong; but it's simply not an answer. They're blindly following something they don't even understand. With that thinking, logic and evidence mean nothing. We could never argue for the existence of God, by going on 'gut feeling'.

The Bible, like history, has many accuracies, like Israel forming. That doesn't mean it is all accurate. As I proved in my last argument, it has lots of contradictions, which you haven't explained. I'm not even talking about the walking on water here, this is pure stuff like:

Numbers 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
Deuteronomy 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

Very simple details of the past... whether they made it up, or got confused along the way, either way they got it wrong. So how can we trust the Bible at all?
And with the Bible being flawed, how do you know Jesus is even the son of God? That he did all these miracles. That God exists?

From evolution, humans must have migrated to other countries over thousands of years. Being isolated from the other humans by mountains, long distances etc., they must have had separate cultures that developed their own way of life. People develop differences to each other as populations grow and we become more and more separated from other cultures.
Evolution is evident in the breeding of dogs, certain dogs are breeded with another particular species and a new breed develops over decades and in many cases, centuries.
Also studies like this twin study(1) have shown that when identical twins are are raised in different environments they develop to become very different to each other over time, even though they have exactly the same genes. This can also be applied to whole communities, who over time develop to have their own personalities, arts, activities, etc. that are completely different to other cultures, because they are apart. If the cultures were to connect and share their way of life (which is happening a lot more now with easier travel, and the internet), a lot of the practices of one culture are introduced to other cultures. (Like oranges from African countries were introduced to Western countries a mere century ago, due to better connections between the countries). But it was because we were separated from them in the first place, that we never had access to oranges ourselves. Just like in evolution's standpoint we didn't see many people of different skin colours - because we were separated. Therefore we interbred with those of our own culture, causing the difference in appearance.
But I don't need to prove evolution. Charles Darwin and others were very good in explaining this, using real evidence.
The real question is, does God exist?

(1) http://www.medicaldaily.com...
K.Cross12

Pro

Whatever. You do you and I do me. Peace.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
53 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by K.Cross12 8 months ago
K.Cross12
I meant I see now
Posted by K.Cross12 8 months ago
K.Cross12
@S3RP... Oh, my bad. When I see now.
Posted by K.Cross12 8 months ago
K.Cross12
@S3RP... Oh, my bad. When I see now.
Posted by S3RP 8 months ago
S3RP
@K.Cross12 I was being sarcastic rofl mb if I didn't make it clear
Posted by KwLm 8 months ago
KwLm
Only noticed now, K.Cross12 has given up.
Posted by KwLm 8 months ago
KwLm
Am queting my conversations with atheist
.Typical of a theist.

I proved you wrong hello
.You have proved nothing what so ever.

Because you are not able to answer my question how we and the universe came into being?
Second u didnt accept my challenge to creat any living thing?
Third u didnt answer about the mountain bibang lie detector test we only discussed the atom thing that also u couldnt?
So again explain how this universe and we came into exsistance?

Typical theist with a reading issue, Nobody knows how the universe or life began, NOBODY! Not even you.
I do not have the technology nor power to create life, nothing does, yet.
Your mountain nonsense, is exactly that, pure nonsense.

You still have given no proof of the existence of your god character, you still have no argument and you still can not prove the statement wrong. There is no god, Prove it wrong!
Posted by Abeer 8 months ago
Abeer
Am queting my conversations with atheist

I proved you wrong hello
Because you are not able to answer my question how we and the universe came into being?
Second u didnt accept my challenge to creat any living thing?
Third u didnt answer about the mountain bibang lie detector test we only discussed the atom thing that also u couldnt?
So again explain how this universe and we came into exsistance?
Posted by KwLm 8 months ago
KwLm
Who is telling you? are you unable to do research of your own or do you blindly believe what people tell you....oh wait, you do, clearly.

You don't find human fossils every where because population explosion is only a recent thing, 10 to 20 000 years ago there wasn't a huge population of humans and they didn't spread to every corner of the earth like it is now. Never mind the fact that the human body is small and frail, compared to say, the dinosaurs. So you're not going to find a hell of a lot of bones that have decayed and turned to the dirt you walk on.

The fact that NO ONE, you understand this? NO ONE HAS EVER PROVEN IT WRONG!
You can not just slap god did it because we do not know the answer to what started the universe. It's irrational illogical and straight up stupid to do so. Humans stated in a fairy tale book that this god character did things, doesn't make it true, because there is no evidence or proof, something you fail to grasp.
Posted by Abeer 8 months ago
Abeer
Ok when i ask is the evolution a continous process they say yes i ask ok why it is so mysterous to find these transitional creatures in life now adays

Life changes so quickly long time ago we didnt have technology internet air planes ,cars, iphones and now the world changed drastically we never see any changes in us we are the same human being

They tell me it is is a very very slow process takes million years ok so my question the common ancestor died 25 million years since that time why we dont see transitional creatures and regarding the fossils we should find tons of them if they were actually true not one and hidden somewhere in amuseum and ask why there is only these 1 or 2 fossils they tell me its been irradecated all very shaky answeres
If the evolution of human true and fact we should find these transitional creatures living among us or plenty of fossils for them?

Your proof for there is no GOD because we cant prof its wrong who said that is true
The only question that will stay forever like a huge mountain infront of the atheist is How this universe and us came into being?
If GOD claimed that he is the one who created this so why no one else can claim the same or why no one in this life can creat the simplest creature ever?
And the science failed miserably many times to creat living things
So answer this please how we and this universe came into beings? Until you and others are able to answer this question and support it with evidence there will be always a one almighty the creator the allpowerfull GOD(ALLAH).
Posted by KwLm 8 months ago
KwLm
I have given you evidence of transitional creatures, but no, you denied that, you wanted human transitions, I have given you that, but no you want humans evolving today? as far as I'm aware there hasn't been any major evolutionary break through with the human genome as humans no longer have a need to evolve or adapt.
If you had such a passion for science you would have this information. Your ineptitude to understand the simple answers I have given you is on your own intellect.

My proof that there is no god is the fact that the statement "there is no god" has NEVER BEEN PROVEN WRONG. Never in the history of human beings and religion has there been any proof that the god character existed outside of a book/document/parchment or piece of paper.
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