The Instigator
tala00131
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
IslamAhmadiyya
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points

Does God exist?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
IslamAhmadiyya
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/9/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 650 times Debate No: 36501
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

tala00131

Con

Rules

Round one is for acceptance only. Round two is opening statements, round three if for rebuttals, found four is for closing statements.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

Salam
That means peace in Arabic.

I accept, I wish you good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
tala00131

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting my challenge. I have broken down my arguments into four major arguments. Number one: Improbability, number two: Stupid design, number three: Problem of evil, number four: Free will.
Improbability: Not only is there no evidence that any God exists, it is extremely improbable. If you think about it, a being so complex as a God who can; fine tune the universe, perform miracles has to be more complex than us. There for, his existence would be very improbable.
Stupid Design: There are many things in the universe which would kill life instantly. Such as: supernovas, radiation, asteroids. Most planet orbits are unstable, star formation is inefficient, most spots in the universe would kill life instantly (either too hot or too cold). There are over 3000 genetic disease in the human genome, our eye has a blind spot. This is just all stupid design.
Problem of evil: One child dies every four seconds, 21,000 children dies each day in Africa, most pepole in Africa die of childbirth, 14 children die every minute. Either God allows suffering (which implies he doesn't care) or he can't (which implies he's not all powerful) or he doesn't exist.
Free will: How can God have free will? If he is all knowing, then he knows the future. If he knows the future he can't change his mind, which means he has no free will. People say God is all just and all merciful. How can this be? Justice is punishing the crime as it should be, mercy is giving a punishment less savior then the crime. So one can't be merciful and just.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

IslamAhmadiyya forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
tala00131

Con

Thanks for following the evidence!
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

I would like to apologize to my opponent, I was gone for a religious celebration, but I now have time to refute his arguments from round 2.

I am first going to refute Con's arguments, then I will later present my own arguments.

(1)Improbability

(1.1)The Con here is stating that the probability of God's existence is unlikely since God in itself is a complex being that can fine tune an entire universe and that it can perform miracles etc.

The reality is that what God can do and what God is are two different perspectives. Just because the abilities of God are very complex does not instantly mean that it is improbable for God's existence. What and Who God is is very simple to understand, it is so simple, that even a young child can grasp the concept of God, it is built into our heads from birth, the neccessity to find something greater than ourselves and to submit ourselves to it. We are born to submit to God.

The nature and abilities of God does not mean that it is improbable for a God to even exist.

(1.2)Con asserts that there is no evidence of God's existence.

That is false, there is no TANGIBLE evidence of God's existence. There are however, logical and rational arguments for God's existence as well as philosophical and religious arguments for God's existence. These are all proofs and evidences for the likeable or a certain existence of a creator, God.[1]

I will present these on the second part of my argument, when I will be giving arguments for Con to refute.

There are more proofs regarding the existence of God versus no proof, therefore, it cannot be improbable that God exists.

(2)Stupid Design

(2.1)Con essentially argues that if God had created this universe perfectly, there would not be dangerous places in the universe that could kill life instantly or that thousands of diseases would exist within humans, thus, making it like so that it would be improbable for the existence of God.


And let me ask him, how does he know that this was God's intention from the very beginning? We do claim that this universe was created perfectly, so because a star blows up goes against this perfection? What if it is God's way of analogies to show us that life will eventually end with death? God tells us to observe the heavens (the universe) to understand the signs of God.

I say that these novas and supernovas that you are talking about are perfect ways of God to show His signs to us humans as well as demonstrate His power and might, considering how large and grand this universe is. And here we are, simple humans with very complex minds, able to understand what is going on thousands of light years away from where we live. I say this is all proof of God's existence.

The destructive nature of the universe is not a good enough clause to state that it is based off the principles of stupid design, nor does it prove the improbability of God's existence, however it leans towards the reasoning of an intended design for purposes such as to show signs to mankind and to show the power and might of God.

(2.2)Regarding diseases, doctors and scientists have learned alot when researching to find cures to diseases, which ultimately led us to discover new ways to cure and eliminate diseases which also leads us to PREVENT diseases and illnesses, and the process goes on.

Science as we know it, is essentially the understanding of God's creation to benefit ourselves and mankind. We all know that when our bodies recover from illnesses, we get stronger and gain furthur immunity from the same diseases. The more pain we go through, the more we are able to bear it when we face it again later in life, and this pain can come in all forms.

There is no such thing as a 'true perfect' except for God Himself, but we get closer to perfection when we make mistakes/fall into error, and then learn from them/recover ourselves. I believe this is the reasoning behind the intention for God creating these things like diseases and illnesses.

The existence of diseases and illnesses is not a good assumption that God is unlikely to exist, it is but an undeniable reality that life goes through its ups and downs, and when we recover from the low points of our lives, we make a great leap forward if we are successful, this is proof that life has an ultimate purpose reflecting the divine purpose of our lives, to gain nearer to God.

(3)Con states that because there is death in this world, God is either A)Uncaring for His creation, B)He is unable to care for His creation, or C)He doesn't exist at all.


(3.1)Death is a reality, it exists, and God has created death, so that man would be ultimately reunited with his creator. Whatever form death comes in, it is a blessing if you are innocent or righteous, as you would be rewarded, and it is a curse if you were evil or you have blindly disbeleived in God.

God has sent numerous messengers across the entire Earth in multiple time periods to convey the message of God to the people. This message is for the betterment of mankind overall.

Within the eternal message contains SOLUTIONS to problems that exist TODAY, and these problems CAN be solved if we are willing to accept these solutions.

Let me first clarify that all of these problems that exist in this world are creations of MAN, and not God.

God is All-Loving, and He has commanded humans to enjoin good and forbid evil, to learn and not remain in ignorance, to save lives of people and not take away anyone's life or one's own life. If we had obeyed God, none of these problems exist, yet these problems do exist on the scale of warring nations!

Man has created these problems, therefore, it is the responsibility of man to eliminate these problems. We can certainly ask God for guidance and help, He has revealed His eternal word on this Earth and preserved it, if we take heed and understand, these problems will be removed forever.

The existence of suffering does not immediately conclude that God does not exist. Suffering is created from the hands of man, and man are responsible for eliminating it from the capabilities that God has given them. Those who are suffering will be relieved of their suffering. Those who are not suffering should be grateful to God that God has not afflicted them with the same suffering.

(3.2)God is Omnipotent, He has the power to do all that He Wills and all that is in His ability. God has created man from His own eternal wisdom and He has created man with the capacities of understanding and the capabilities of making positive action. God has sent messengers to this world for the sole purpose for all people on Earth to live in peace without problems. This is an act of guidance from God, if only we take heed of it.


God creating man shows us that God has the power to completely rid this world of problems and is willing to help us if we accept the commandments of God. This does not lead anywhere near to the fact that God does not exist.

(4)Free Will

In order to save space, I would like to send this link to the Con to refute his misunderstanding about God's Free Will.[2]


Omniscience and free will are not incompatible and it is a non-sequitor to claim otherwise.

---

Now I would like to bring my own arguments for the existence of God that Con must refute.

(5)The Cosmological Argument from Contingency

  • Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

  • If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

  • The universe exists.

  • Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).

  • Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from 2, 4).

In this argument, if the premises are true, the conclusion is unavoidable. The most supported explanation behind the existence of this universe is God. There are also other explanations, God remains the leading explanation and should add to the likeness of God's existence. That is how detectives work anyway, when multiple clues are all pointing towards the same general direction, they are victorious when they investigate in that general location and come to solid conlusions. Then later become firm in their investigation. This is what we must do to find God.

God is one of the explanations for the universe's existence.

(6)The Kalam Cosmological Argument
  • Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

  • The universe began to exist.

  • Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Now we can come to many different conclusions regarding the cause of the universe. Yes, the Big Bang is one, and so is God, and there are others as well. The most reasonable explanation is that God caused the Big Bang to create the universe.

God could be one of the causes of the universe by causing the Big Bang.

(7)Moral argument for God's existence.
  • If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

  • Objective moral values and duties do exist.

  • Therefore, God exists.

The moral laws of this world have to have come from somewhere. We humans KNOW in the back of our head that murder is wrong, lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, etc. Many Atheists even follow the moral obligations found in religious scriptures! The reality is that the universe has somehow created this morals and evolved us humans to live by these morals. The most seemingly definite explanation regarding this is God.

The existence of morality is a likeable proof for God's existence.

(8)Scientific statements of the Qur'an

How is it possible that an illiterate man living in the desert had knowledge about science that we only know recently?

I'll give you a link regarding the undeniable scientific statements found in the Qur'an that couldn't have possibly been known 1,400 years ago.

[3]

The scientific statements in the Qur'an are likeable proof for the existence of God, hence the time period of its revelation.

Sources:

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.comereason.org...
[3] http://www.sultan.org...
Debate Round No. 3
tala00131

Con

tala00131 forfeited this round.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

I am guessing Con ran out of time, I would like to advise him that maybe in the future to extend the time period for us to post our arguments, it'd give us a lot of relief, even I had a forfeit earlier. =)

But now that the debate is pretty much over, I won't post any new arguments. I wish Con good luck.

Salam
Peace
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
It's ok I hope you had a wonderful Eid.
Posted by IslamAhmadiyya 3 years ago
IslamAhmadiyya
Sorry for the first round forfeit thing, I was out celebrating the holiday of Eid which comes after every month of Ramadan, and I only realized when I came home that you put the time to put in arguments a little too less than what I originally expected.
Posted by GarthVader 3 years ago
GarthVader
Tala - On what basis do you assert that there is no possibllity of a being more complex than man?
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
1. Improbability, God is simple not complex, It isn't made up of many parts, it is just one entity with complex functions, just because the functions are complex doesn't mean it's nature is complex,

2. God could be insane or control the universe objectively without compassion.

3. Same reason God may not care and may not care about ants on a piece of dust on the cosmos, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

4. We may not have free will, but God may, It may be able to know what could happen in the future and decide which possibility it likes the most.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
1. Improbability, God is simple not complex, It isn't made up of many parts, it is just one entity with complex functions, just because the functions are complex doesn't mean it's nature is complex,

2. God could be insane or control the universe objectively without compassion.

3. Same reason God may not care and may not care about ants on a piece of dust on the cosmos, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

4. We may not have free will, but God may, It may be able to know what could happen in the future and decide which possibility it likes the most.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 3 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
tala00131IslamAhmadiyyaTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: F.F.
Vote Placed by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
tala00131IslamAhmadiyyaTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - both FF a round. Arguments - Pro got the last word and CON did not respond to arguments.
Vote Placed by guesswhat101 3 years ago
guesswhat101
tala00131IslamAhmadiyyaTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro killed Con in my opinion but I think that they should have defined "God" in the first round.