The Instigator
tala00131
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
hashtagmugger
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Does God exist?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
tala00131
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/10/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 652 times Debate No: 38738
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (2)

 

tala00131

Pro

The kalam cosmological argument: This argument says that God is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. It goes as follows:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
Therefore, the universe had a cause

P1: This is obviously true. Have you ever seen something come into being without a cause? Have you ever seen a horse come into being without a cause? No. Why? Because that doesn"t happen in reality. It"s simple logic that something can"t come into existence without a cause.

P2: For many years, atheists have tried to say that the universe is eternal. However, this is no longer possible, we have pretty strong evidence that the universe began to exist. For example, the universe is expanding, which means it had to have come into existence from a point in the finite past. Now scientists are saying that the universe came into being from a huge explosion in an event which happened 13.7 billion years ago; which what is known as the big bang. Now, what makes the big bang so interesting is that it says the universe came from nothing and by nothing. But that doesn"t make sense. Out of nothing, nothing comes. After all, our first premise shows that whatever begins to exist must have a cause. Here is the standard big bang model:


pics


As you can see, according to the big bang model, the universe just sprang into existence. Now, Lawrence Krauss has said that subatomic particles come into existence from nothing. However, this just isn’t true. The nothing that Lawrence Krauss is talking about isn’t nothing at all, it’s a quantum vacuum, which is a pool of energy and matter. Subatomic particles are created from energy in a vacuum. He claims that this is what the universe was like seconds after the big bang. So what was there before the big bang? Where did the vacuum come from?


Conclusion: Since premise one, and two are true, then the conclusion is true. The universe did in fact begin to exist. What properties would the cause of the universe must have? It must be timeless,and spaceless, since time and space came into existence at the big bang. It must be immaterial, since anything beyond space can’t be physical. It must be powerful, since it brought the universe into existence without any materials. It must also be personal, since the only two things which can exist outside of space are: minds, or abstract objects. But abstract objects don’t cause anything; the number seven doesn’t cause anything.
hashtagmugger

Con

you made the same point every person with a religion makes "if god doesn't exist then how was the universe made" well the big bang most people respond with "if the big bang made the universe what made the stuff the big band was made up of" well think about this scientists don't know where the chemicals came from but relisionist's don't know where god came from either,also in this argument i would politely ask you to refrain from the use of religious scripts as they could have easily been made up as a bed time story or to keep a country in check in other words there's no proof they are the truth.
Debate Round No. 1
tala00131

Pro

My opponent is accusing me of saying: "because we don't understand how the universe came into existence, that means God did it." This just isn't true. When you look at my arguments, they're not like that. These are deductive arguments, meaning if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Premise one, two,are not controversial. It logically follows that since whatever begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore, the universe had a cause. I then gave an argument as to why the cause must be: timeless, space-less, immaterial, powerful, and personal. This is only one argument for God's existence, there are many others. This includes:

A fine tuned universe: Scientists have been shocked by the fact that the conditions of the universe have been finely tuned for life to exist. To give an example of this, if the rate of expansion of the big bang was changed by as little as 1 and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 life wouldn't"t exist. If the atomic weak force was changed by 2% life wouldn't"t exist. This fine tuning can only be due to either physical necessity, chance, or design. Now, it can"t be due to physical necessity, because the physical constants are independent of the laws of nature. Now, could it be due to chance? The problem with this alternative is that the odds of the fine tuning occurring by chance is so incomprehensibly great that they can"t be reasonably faced. It is more likely that the stars will arrange themselves tonight to spell your name, then for the fine tuning to have occurred by chance. Thus, this gives us a designer of the universe.

Humans have the ability to see and appreciate beauty in all areas of life. This ability does not have its roots in evolution, for evolution is driven by survival, and the ability to see and appreciate beauty is not necessary for survival. Since the origins of beauty are not to be found in nature, we must look above and beyond nature (to the divine) to explain it.

Humans have the ability to behave morally. Scientists have put this down to our genes behaving selfishly, doing things because of such tactics as the belief in reciprocal benefits the subject and the object helped by the subject, good behavior towards one"s family to ensure the survival of one"s genes. These theories fly in the face of evidence that this is not what encourages most decent people to behave morally. Moral behavior of humans cannot be explained in evolutionary terms, so we must again look beyond the natural world to find our answer for it. Also, moral behavior is exactly what we would expect if God existed.
hashtagmugger

Con

im actually quite impressed by your argument you made a good point about life existing but if god exists how did he come to be hes also life so yeah inst that 1 i 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance again and your statements about evolution humans are different from finches or other animals we are more closely related to raptors their brains were adapted to think instead of being permanently set on instinct just like us since we survived we have naturally evolved with new information which allows us to act and think and so came morale its what us humans think is right and wrong, so killing people according to our morale or consonance tells us that that's bad, for some people their consonance doesn't tell them that its wrong. for humans to act morally thats a simple case of common belief by that i mean that most humans not all beleive that something is bad or good, like stealing its a law not to but why, because its common belief that stealing is bad. last for humans to appreciate stuff well again common belief its commonly believed that you should appreciate nature and stuff and beutifal things because they might not be around forever. Whew done that took a while still good use of facts even though it was misguided it was impressive research.
Debate Round No. 2
tala00131

Pro

Well, I'm glad that my opponent is impressed by my fine-tuning argument! However, he says that some peoples consonances does not tell them what's right, and wrong. This may be true, however, that's not the argument. The argument is that humans have the ability to tell right from wrong. In today's world, acts like rape aren't just socially unacceptable, they're moral abominations. Most rapists, and criminals usually have some sort of mental disorder. But as for us, we know what's right, and what is wrong.
hashtagmugger

Con

actually no acts like rape are social abominations but most of them don't have mental disorders they just cant tell which is right and wrong and another thing the millions of soldiers who have killed a man all have mental disorders no its just easier for them because their bran is more adapted to the fact that killing isn't that bad unlike u and many other people , some more if god is so powerful then why does the devil exist its believed that the devil is a mortal enemy of god so why doesn't god kill him or go back in time to stop him from being made. one more thing every person who has stolen has a mental disorder, i don't think so its just that they either need it or they don't care its that simple.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by hashtagmugger 3 years ago
hashtagmugger
ok so the first part was informational but when it explained how the cause of the universe is causless then that just doesnt add up if the universe has to have a cause then so does the cause of the universe, you said it yourself everything and everyone has a cause so if god exists god has to have a cause so unless you can explain that cause then the universe has no cause either
Posted by DragonTech 3 years ago
DragonTech
To all those looking for more on God, the universe, and the kalam cosmological argument, here is a short video packed with information and thought-provokers:
Posted by DragonTech 3 years ago
DragonTech
hashtagmugger - "well think about this scientists don't know where the chemicals came from but relisionist's don't know where god came from either"

SecularSociety - "If you say that because the universe is so intelligently designed and that it had to come into being due to something more intelligent, than you must ALSO make the logical deduction that God needed something more intelligent than he to be created. If you say this isn't true because God doesn't need a creator, than I am merely making the same claim for the universe."

We don't have to know the origin of God. He always was and always will be. This is different from the universe. The universe consists of space, time, and matter. But God is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial. He is an infinite, intelligent being outside of the space-time continuum. Therefore, by the very definition of God, He cannot have a beginning or origin, neither can He have an ending. However, since the universe, to which the laws of logic, mathematics, physics, etc. necessarily applies, exists, then it must follow that it had a beginning. And since God is outside of the universe, the laws of logic, mathematics, physics, etc. do not necessarily apply to Him, however, it is understood that God is adherent to some moral code, defined by His nature.
Posted by Foolish_sage 3 years ago
Foolish_sage
This is directly copied and pasted from answers in genisis, if you are going to spam this at least don't even copy the spacing and font change.
Posted by SecularSociety 3 years ago
SecularSociety
Pro's arguments are completely hypocritical and invalid.

If you say that because the universe is so intelligently designed and that it had to come into being due to something more intelligent, than you must ALSO make the logical deduction that God needed something more intelligent than he to be created. If you say this isn't true because God doesn't need a creator, than I am merely making the same claim for the universe. The argument you are using is outdated and no real debater these days would dare use it against any intelligent person.

Also, our sun will kill us in a few billion years. Before that of course we will be terminated by climate change, or even before that by meteors hitting the earth. If we survive all of that then we will for sure die from the inflation of our own sun. If for some reason we live through that than our nearest sister galaxy Andromeda will collide with us killing everything in the milky way. If for some reason we survive even THAT cataclysmic event there will be NO making it out alive from the rapidly expanding universe. Eventually the dark energy will reach such speeds that even atoms themselves will be ripped apart- destroying everything in our universe.

This is intelligent design? Really? If that's intelligent design than so is my easy mac I used to make in 1st grade.
Posted by tala00131 3 years ago
tala00131
On my fine-tuning argument, I meant to put that the odds of the fine-tuning occurring by chance is so incomprehensibly small, not great. I was typing fast, sorry.
Posted by Gordontrek 3 years ago
Gordontrek
Can I play devil's advocate?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
tala00131hashtagmuggerTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was no match for the arguments Pro put forward, Pro also had better spelling and grammar.
Vote Placed by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
tala00131hashtagmuggerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro presented arguments for theism which are relatively strong even though they've been well-refuted. Nonetheless, Con didn't bother to refute the premises of those arguments(although that could be easily done) but instead went into petty digressions and ended up discussing the"moral behavior of rapists" and what have you. Arguments go for Pro.