The Instigator
NKJVPrewrather
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TheMorningsStar
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Does God love everyone?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
TheMorningsStar
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/11/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 298 times Debate No: 107893
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (24)
Votes (2)

 

NKJVPrewrather

Pro

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
TheMorningsStar

Con

Does God Love Everyone?

Preface
I am starting this debate with the assumption that we are talking about the god Yahweh, seeing as my opponent opened the debate with a
quote from the Gospel of John.

Also, as who has the burden of proof was left unspecified I also propose that the burden of proof must be shared then.
My debate opponent, NKJVPrewrather, has the burden of proof to show that Yahweh loves everybody while I must show that Yahweh does
not love everybody.

Also, considering that NKJV is in the name of my opponent I assume that they use the NKJV translation of the Bible and so I shall respect
that and do the same.


Furthermore, as it was not specified if Round 1 is for acceptance or not I shall post my opening arguments here and drop the final round.

Arguments

To start with, let's look at the quote provided by NKJVPrewrather in Round 1:
        • "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
As you can see, I have emphasized two parts of this quote.
"For God so loved the world" makes it seem as if Yahweh's love is universal to all people, but the question is if "the world" actually even
means all people (I will address this later).

As you can see in the other emphasized part, "whoever believes in Him," there seems to be a condition, that people must believe in Him.
If Yahweh's love is not unconditional, then there likely are people that have not met those conditions and, thus, are not loved.
So, the question is, is Yahweh's love conditional?
Proverbs 8:17 seems to imply that yes, Yahweh's love is conditional.
        • Proverbs 8:17 - I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me
It seems that according to Proverbs Yahweh loves those that love him.
But not only can we find this implied in Proverbs, but even in the Gospel of John itself!
        • John 15:10 - If you keep My commandment, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
And it seems that in John it can be inferred that to keep the love of Jesus or Yahweh that you must keep their commandments.
Furthermore, let's look at some more Bible passages:
        • Psalm 5:4-5 - For You are not a God who take pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers on iniquity.
        • Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
        • Proverbs 6:16-19 - These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
        • Leviticus 26:27-30 - 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you secen times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down you incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you.
The Bible clearly outlines the types of people that Yahweh doesn't love but hates, but we don't even need to look at just the types of people
that Yahweh says he hates as there are those within the Bible that are clearly specified to be hated by Yahweh.
        • Hosea 9:15 - "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the ebil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more.
        • Malachi 1:2-3 - Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, and laid waste he mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."
        • Leviticus 20:23 - And you shall not walk in the statues of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.
        • Romans 9:13 - As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Easu I have hated."
So clearly there are those that Yahweh not only hates, but even those that God even says he does not love.

But remember the question from earlier, does "the world" from John 3:16 even include all people? The Gospel of John itself might be able
to help us with this:
  • John 15:18-19 - "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love itsown. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

It seems that not everyone is a part of "the world". In fact, not only does it seem that not all people might be a prt of the world, but that
Jesus himself can chose to make you not a part of the world.

Debate Round No. 1
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

I tried to locate the scripture that proves God is love, and I think it might be in 1 Jogn somewhere. My eyers hurt, so I can't look it up for you. Just read the scripture I did provide. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world threough Him might be saved according to John 3:17, and how does a hateful God get tortured to death on the cross for He chose to lay down His life for sinners like me, who need and want Him. God loves you and has a plan for your life, but gave you free will to love or hate Him, and if you have the capacity to understand either, you will have to choose for yourself. Don't try to be your own God like I have in the past, and choose Jesus when you are ready.
TheMorningsStar

Con

Rebuttal
My opponent did not really counter the arguments that I made and so I will not spend time defending them in this round. If my opponent wishes to try to counter the arguments in the next round I will be happy to attampt to defend them, but as is they still stand, and so I will use this round to address what he has said in his Round 2.
  • "I tried to locate the scripture that proves God is love, and I think it might be in 1 Jogn somewhere. My eyers hurt, so I can't look it up for you."

While it is, from my perspective, poor debate ethics to post something like this as an argument, I will still respond anyways. I believe that the Bible verse that my opponent is looking for is 1 John 4:8:

  • 1 John 4:8 - He who does not love does not know God, for God is love
Now, while we can find this verse in 1 John, is it really all to accurate of a verse? You see, this verse does not come from Yahweh or Jesus, and thus can we say that 1 John 4:8 is more valid of a verse than 1 Corinthians 13:4?
  • 1 Corinthians 13:4 - Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

As you can see in 1 Corinthians 13:4, Love is not envious. This means that if Yahweh is Love that Yahweh cannot be envious. Now, keeping in mind that envy and jealousy are synonyms, let's look at what Yahweh himself says:

  • Exodus 34:14 - for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

This is Yahweh himself talking, saying that he is a jealous God. Because of this we must remain in doubt about both 1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13:4, as both verses cannot be accurate when you consider what Yahweh himself says in Exodus 34:14. Either Yahweh is both a jealous god and is love, thus meaning that 1 Corinthians contains false verses, or Yahweh is a jealous god and is not love, thus meaning that 1 John contains false verses. Now, considering the verses I have provided in my previous round about how Yahweh holds conditional love, that there are those that Yahweh hates, and that there are those that Yahweh does not love, I think it is safe to say that it is the verse from 1 John that is more likely to be mistaken than the verse in 1 Corinthians.

  • "Just read the scripture I did provide. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world threough Him might be saved according to John 3:17"

This ignores the final argument from my last round, that the Gospel of John itself indicates that not all people are a part of "the world"

  • "and how does a hateful God get tortured to death on the cross for He chose to lay down His life for sinners like me, who need and want Him. God loves you and has a plan for your life, but gave you free will to love or hate Him, and if you have the capacity to understand either, you will have to choose for yourself."

I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to believe this. You have not provided scripture to prove this nor have you refuted the scripture that I have provided. Furthermore, this entire part is just a pure assersion, you did not even imply a part of scripture to back up this assersion.

  • "Don't try to be your own God like I have in the past, and choose Jesus when you are ready."

This isn't even relevant to the debate and I have no idea what you mean by "trying to be my own God," and furthermore, one could hypothetically accept that Yahweh and Jesus do not love everyone and still be a Christian (though, I am not a Christian, this is besides the point) so I don't understand why this would even be said.

I am looking forward to a proper rebuttal.

Debate Round No. 2
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

https://www.gotquestions.org...
Answer: There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). This love is not conditional"it is rooted in God"s character and based on the fact that He is a God of love (1 John 4:8, 16). God"s love for everyone could be thought of as His "merciful love," since it results in the fact that God does not immediately punish people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). "Your Father in heaven . . . causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). This is another example of God"s love for everyone"His merciful love, His benevolence extended to everyone, not just to Christians.
God"s merciful love for the world is also manifested in that God gives people the opportunity to repent: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise. . . . Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). God"s unconditional love is related to His general call to salvation and what is often called His permissive or perfect will"that aspect of God"s will that reveals His attitude and defines what is pleasing to Him.
However, God"s love for everyone does not mean that everyone will be saved (see Matthew 25:46). God will not ignore sin, for He is a God of justice (2 Thessalonians 1:6). Sin cannot go unpunished forever (Romans 3:25"26). If God simply disregarded sin and allowed it to continue to wreak havoc in creation forever, then He would not be love. To ignore God"s merciful love, to reject Christ, or to deny the Savior who bought us (2 Peter 2:1) is to subject ourselves to God"s wrath for eternity (Romans 1:18), not His love.
The love of God that justifies sinners is not extended to everyone, only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). The love of God that brings people into intimacy with Himself is not extended to everyone, only to those who love the Son of God (John 14:21). This love could be thought of as God"s "covenant love," and it is conditional, given only to those who place their faith in Jesus for salvation (John 3:36). Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are loved unconditionally, securely, forever.
Does God love everyone? Yes, He shows mercy and kindness to all. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No, not in regards to His merciful love. Does God love Christians in a different way than He loves non-Christians? Yes; because believers have exercised faith in God"s Son, they are saved. God has a unique relationship with Christians in that only Christians have forgiveness based on God"s eternal grace. The unconditional, merciful love God has for everyone should bring us to faith, receiving with gratefulness the conditional, covenant love He grants those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.
TheMorningsStar

Con

Rebuttal
While it seems my opponent has finally provided an argument, they did not provide their argument but copied and pasted one from their "source." I find this to be in poor taste as my opponent should be providing their own argument instead of just copy-pasting someone else's, but alas, as this is my finaly round, I will still respond on some level.
  • " There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world"

There are three verses that GotQuestions.org uses to justify this claim, however, as my point about who is all included in "the world" has not been refuted, only Romans 5:8 seems relevant as instead of using the term "the world" it simply uses the term "us," but it still leads us to a similar question, is the "us" in Romans 5:8 a universal use of the phrase or does it exclude certain people? I have already provided a verse from Romans itself (as well as other verses) in my first round that shows that there are those that Yahweh does hate, and just as the verses from John and 1 John are not universal (as I demonstrated in Round 1), I do not think we can consider the verse from Romans universal either. The "us" in Romans does not mean everybody, it is an exclusive "us."

  • "This love is not conditional"it is rooted in God"s character and based on the fact that He is a God of love"

I have already addressed this in my previous rounds and none of those points have been refuted. Bringing up the same point over and over again without addressing the criticisms does not magically make you correct.

The rest of the post is more of the same, things which either I have already addressed (which my opponent has still not refuted) or which add nothing to the debate.
I must say that I am disappointed with this tactic my opponent used.
None of my arguments have been refuted, the arguments my opponent makes have been addressed by me (and my refutations have been ignored).
Unless my opponent can bring up some decent, last round refutations, please vote Con.

Debate Round No. 3
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

There was not enough room. Basically, God is love, and so loved the world according to the evidence I provided. God hates evil, not the sinner, for according to Romans 3:23, all mentally capable humans are sinners. This means we need salvation from sin from and in Jesus. It is a free gift from Him.
TheMorningsStar

Con

In order to keep the debate fair (four rounds of debates each) I am dropping this round. I thank NKJVPrewrather for the debate and thank you to everyone that has taken time out of their day to read it.
Debate Round No. 4
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Cherrypalm 3 days ago
Cherrypalm
Religious debates are for geocentrists.
Posted by TheMorningsStar 4 days ago
TheMorningsStar
Have to say, I find it interesting that both voters so far explicitly mention the Romans 9:13 verse in their RFD. I honestly thought that some of the other verses were stronger.
Posted by TheMorningsStar 5 days ago
TheMorningsStar
Thank you @3RU7AL and @Ramshutu for voting on this debate.
Posted by TheMorningsStar 6 days ago
TheMorningsStar
@LeeJohnson

To be honest, I did this debate topic mostly as a way of getting used to how the debating system works on this site. The topic does interest me on some level, but it isn't one that I would feel like debating again any time soon (would like a few different debates before doing that).
Though I have to say thank you for the offer.
Posted by LeeJohnson 6 days ago
LeeJohnson
@backwardseden, if you had any balls to along with your shriveled up dick, you'd let me debate you. But NO - you are too stubborn and inferior to my logic.

*Ahem* I believe the word is pronounced Christian; not "vhristian". Typical arrogant atheists. Anyhoo,

@TheMorningsStar, if you'd like to debate this same topic then hit me up, I'd love to not waste and forget a very interesting debate. Just message me and we can set up a custom debate if you're interested.
Posted by backwardseden 6 days ago
backwardseden
Your god is that dick if you were to read your bible. Nah that's too much to ask.Typical vhristian.
Posted by TheMorningsStar 1 week ago
TheMorningsStar
@LeeJohnson

Thank you! So far it has bee a pleasure being here, hope it stays that way.

I agree, this could have been an interesting debate.
I did have to alter my views slightly on this debate as well as I don't actually hold the exact view I argued.
I do think that when it comes to Yahweh that he does not, in fact, love everyone, but I disagree with the common (at least, common nowadays) view that "God the Father" that Jesus talked about is actually Yahweh (taking a view similar to the Gnostics and Marcionites on that point).
In the debate I had to take the view that they are one and the same and argue based on that, which really did challenge me in a way I didn't expect.

And thank you for the tidbit about @backwardseden.
Posted by LeeJohnson 1 week ago
LeeJohnson
An interesting debate ruined, by Pro.

While I agree with you, because I too am a Christian, your statements are lacking. While Con made many bad arguments, your defense was simply inferior to Con's logic.

@TheMorningStar, welcome to debate.org! If you're interested in talking about religion, hit me up!

FYI: I'd ignore @backwardseden, his irrationality is very high - just a friendly little tip.
Posted by missmedic 1 week ago
missmedic
I understand and thanks for responding.
Posted by TheMorningsStar 1 week ago
TheMorningsStar
@missmedic

While I could have used such arguments, and they are ones that I personally do agree with on some level, such arguments require one to infer the conclusion of hate. Instead, I decided to use the explicit hatred/lack of love arguments I could with the Christian scriptures as they are, by their very nature (being explicit hate/lack of love), much harder to refute than the inferred hatred arguments (implicit hate/lack of love).

Now, while I could have decided to use both forms of arguments, the time limits on the rounds was set at 24 hours and so if my opponent decided to use some trickier arguments it would have made me hard pressed for time, so I limited myself to using only one form, and thus used the explicit arguments as they are inherently stronger.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ramshutu 6 days ago
Ramshutu
NKJVPrewratherTheMorningsStarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments to com: the romans 9:13 quote was damning to pros argument: essentially taking scripture as valid sources (given the nature of debate), this basically meant a scriptural link that directly refuted the claim. Cons primary position throughout was that gods love is conditional: pros arguments seemed tangential: not directly addressing their key argument, but more to reaffirm the original contention with another quote (ie god is love, and the bible says love is not envious, so gods love must not be envious) these dont rebut the contention raised about gods love being conditional.
Vote Placed by 3RU7AL 6 days ago
3RU7AL
NKJVPrewratherTheMorningsStarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The presumed debate resolution of "god does love everyone" is not supported by PRO's key reference to John 3:16, which is at best inconclusive. PRO fails to address nearly all arguments from CON, which stand on quite firm support with explicit biblical references in all rounds. CON negates the resolution in round 1 with a reference to Romans 9:13 - As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Easu I have hated." Arguments go to CON.