Does Islam teach that God is a solitary oneness?
Debate Rounds (5)
Round 2 - Opening Statement
Round 3 - 1st rebuttals
Round 4 - 2nd rebuttals
Round 5 - Conclusion
In Islam, Muslims also have Jesus Christ, whom they believe to be a Muslim prophet.
I will be demonstrating that the Qur'an in some places describes Jesus that suggests he is God.
Surah 3:45 - [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of A WORD FROM HIM (i.e God), WHOSE NAME WILL BE, THE MESSIAH, JESUS, THE SON OF MARY - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].
This proves that Jesus is God, because God's word is uncreated and originates from within himself. Therefore, Jesus originating from God's word makes him God. Notice, the text says that "a word from Allah" was named "Christ Jesus" It does not say Jesus came into being by Allah's word.
Surah 58:22 - Thou shalt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day who are loving to anyone who opposes. God and His Messenger, not though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their clan. Those -- He has written faith upon their hearts, and He has confirmed THEM with A SPIRIT FROM HIMSELF.
Notice, the spirit is able to strengthen and empower multiple people at the same time, implying that the Spirit is all-present (omnipresent) and all powerful (omnipotent). But these are attributes of God, therefore, the Spirit must be God.
Muslim scholar, Yusuf Ali agrees with this interpretation:
"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, "a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further FORTIFIES HIM WITH THE DIVINE SPIRIT, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)
The Qur'an also says that the Holy Spirit is the source of life, meaning he is God, because only God creates life:
Surah 15:29 - When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him.
Shia writer, Irshaad Hussain agrees with this interpretation:
The Spirit, which derives from God, IS A REALITY THAT POSSESSES ALL THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES. IT REPRESENTS A DIRECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD. Remember, it is only after this Spirit is breathed into Adam that God orders the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. It is only after this receiving of the Spirit that Adam is given knowledge of the names of all things. The Spirit then MANIFESTS in some way THE ATTRIBUTES OR NAMES OF GOD. It is luminous, alive, subtle, unseen, knowing, unified etc. (Irshaad Hussain, The Soul: Between Spirit and Clay)
Islamic scholars throughout the centuries also insist that the Qur'an is the uncreated speech or word of Allah.
Surah 7:158 - Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah AND HIS WORDS, and follow him that you may be guided.
Sunni Muslim writer, GF Haddad, writes:
This posting sums up the doctrine of the massive majority of the Muslims, namely the People of the Sunna and the Congregation, concerning the PRE-EXISTENCE, PRE-ETERNAL [sic],BEGINNINGLESS, and UNCREATED NATURE OF THE DIVINE SPEECH OF ALLAH Most High HAS NAMED AL-QUR'AN, as held by the Salaf al-Salihun and as formulated by the two Masters, Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari and Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi and their respective schools.
The position of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a differs fundamentally on this matter with that of the rest of the Muslim sects, especially with that of the now defunct Mu`tazila. The position of the Shi`a is indentical [sic] with that of the Mu`tazila, who denied not only the Pre-existent status of the Divine Speech, but of all the Divine Attributes for they considered that they are the same as the Essence.
Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur'an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason. (source: http://www.sunnah.org...)
This is indeed troubling for Muslims because if the Qur'an is indeed eternal, then is Surah al-Fatiha, the first chapter of the Qur'an an eternal prayer?
In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -
The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
Guide us to the straight path -
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
Here is a prayer directed to Allah, and yet this is supposed to be an eternal prayer, a prayer that has existed before creation. The question would then arise: Why is God being addressed in this passage as the one to pray to if it is God's eternal speech? Was it the Qur'an who was praying to Allah from eternity past? Or was it Allah praying to himself from eternity past? If the first position is indeed correct, then this presents us with two distinct eternal entities, Allah and the Quran, i.e. there are two Gods, if not more, or that Allah exists as a plurality within himself.
Some Hadiths seems to support the idea that the Qur'an is a living entity and will intercede for Muslims who read the Qur'an, something which the Qur'an says only God will do (Surah 39:44):
Abu Umama said he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say: Recite the Qur'an, for on the Day of Resurrection IT WILL COME AS AN INTERCESSION FOR THOSE WHO RECITE IT. Recite the two bright ones, al-Baqara and Surah Al 'Imran, for on the Day of Resurrection they will come as two clouds or two shades, or two flocks of birds in ranks, pleading for those who recite them. Recite Surah al-Baqara, for to take recourse to it is a blessing and to give it up is a cause of grief, and the magicians cannot confront it. (Mu'awiya said: It has been conveyed to me that here Batala means magicians.) (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1757)
If Muhammad was correct, in that the Qur'an intercedes for good Muslims who recited the Qur'an, then according to Surah 39:44, the Qur'an must be Allah, because only Allah intercedes according to this verse.
So as I have shown, Islam DOES NOT teach that Allah alone is God, The Qur'an (Allah's eternal word) is also God, the Spirit of Allah has divine attributes, Jesus Christ who is "a word from Allah" is also God. While this doesn't prove that Islam is polytheistic, it does prove that Allah is a plurality WITHIN his oneness.
My opponent needs to realize something...this is not his opportunity for a rebuttal, the point of the second round as I clearly mentioned was for OPENING STATEMENTS. Your Qur'an says God is one, okay, but that doesn't mean that whenever the Qur'an implicitly says that someone other than God has the attributes and characteristics of God, that we are to ignore it.
"Say He is One God() God who theres nithingnlike Him() Never he begot() and never he was begotten() and never had partners"
Interestingly, the word that is translated as one is "ahad" ahad doesn't restrict itself to a solitary oneness. Ahad functions in the same way the word "one" in English functions. For example: I am one person, We are one community, we are one team. So the Qur'an using "ahad" doesn't make it so that God is a solitary being, but it does open the possibility to a complex unity.
" They truly disbelieved those who said Allah is a third of three(have partners)"
This is precisely why I reject the Qur'an, your God is amazingly ignorant about what Christians actually believe. First of all, Christians have never said "Allah is a third of three", that's not what the Trinity says. The Trinity is the belief in ONE GOD, who exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So the Qur'an doesn't even know what the Trinity is.
"Truly the dosbelivee who said God is Jesus Son of Marry "
Again, the Qur'an grossly distorts the Christian position. What Christian has ever said "God is the Messiah". We DO NOT believe that Jesus is the only person who is God. God is not Jesus Christ, as the Qur'an gets wrong, but rather "Jesus Christ is God". We believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not only Jesus Christ.
"Worship God you have no God beside Him"
Okay, cool. I agree. But what I disagree with is the statements in the Qur'an which suggest that there are multiple distinct entities which share the ONE essence and nature of God. Let me give you an example to demonstrate what I mean:
Jesus Christ is God and God is Jesus Christ has two very different meanings. "Jesus Christ is God" simply means that Christ shares the same nature as God. "God is Jesus Christ" means that Jesus and only Jesus is God, which is not what I as a Christian believe. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; not just Jesus Christ.
"amd regarding "a word from Him" never meant is divine like Him as you proved it by yourself when you said that God created Adam from His spirit and never the Quran ordered to worship Adam or Jesus and it strictly says in Mary "
So you are denying that Allah's speech is not eternal? If you are, you are against what the majority of Muslim scholars agree on. To say that Jesus is a word from Allah implies he is divine, because if Jesus is a word from Allah, then that proves that Jesus originates from eternity past, as the word (speech) of Allah is uncreated.
"and never the Quran ordered to worship Adam or Jesus"
That doesn't prove that they aren't God.
" and I want to prce that in a verse the Quran says " If the word from your Lord didnt come true it could (danger) have happened and became to being."
Please give references to when you quote the Qur'an, because I looked your quote up on Google, and didn't anything back from the Qur'an, so please cite your sources.
"here it says that the word of God is His order and destiny and never meant something To be worshipped andmit meant Jesus birth is an order from Allah and a destiny from Him"
Again, I don't know which Qur'an verse says that. But I already said in my opening that the verses DO NOT say that Jesus came into existence by the word of Allah. Surah 3:45 clearly say that "a word from Allah will be named Christ Jesus". Just allow the text to speak for itself please.
"if we need to Worship other than God I demmand you to tell me what does the dozens of Verses saying "Your God os One and not worship anything beside him" mean ?? "
My opponent erroneously assumes that if God's nature is shared, then that no longer means God is one. That is incorrect. Let me put it like this: Allah is one, but he has 99 names/attributes all of which are distinct from one another, does this prove your God is now 99? Of course not, this is not how we are suppose to do argumentation.
"regarding intercession of Quran we also nave intercession of Muhammed does this make him a God ?? No the reason Quran intercesses is that it is a good deed to memorize it and undeniably good deeds in Islam are the only path to heaven"
Well the Qur'an explicitly says that ALLAH ALONE makes intercession for believers. Yet Muhammad says the Qur'an will make intercession for people, logically, that leads any rational person to conclude that the Qur'an is Allah, because according to the words written in the Qur'an, God alone intercedes for people.
"regarding the pre-existance of Quran I ask you a question amd please when we talk about Islam I really want evidence from Holy texts and Hadiths and not human interpretaion how could it be pre-existant when Ahl Al Sunnah calim that Quran was revealed according to situtions ??"
My opponent needs to get this through his head...he speech of God is NOT created. Any rational person would agree on this. If God's speech is created, then that means God doesn't have knowledge of everything and had to come up with the words of the Qur'an. So I don't need to prove from the Islami sources that the Qur'an is eternal, this should be relatively obvious to any thinking person.
"so a word from God means an order from Him that you become pregnant with Him and about God creating us from His spirit this means here that he brought Adam alive by His Will (spirit) and not litterally His Spirit it means I am the One who created him and I gave Him life from my Power and Will"
Again, where does the passage say Jesus came into existence DUE TO "a word from Allah". Stop just assuming what you are trying to prove and actually cite your sources to prove it.
"amd thats proven by the next verse when God asks Satan why didnt he kneel before Adam "Who dont you kneel before soething I created" and if it was to worship Adam why God uses Adam as an explanation that Jesus isnt god when he said "Likeness of Jesus son of Marry is like Adam I created from dust and siad Be and it came into being" which indicates that his Ruh (spirit) ,eans his Will that created Them by just saying "Be" and i ask you of Adam is divine because he came into being by Spirit of God as you assume then were all divine why dont I worship myself then in Islam ??"
No, how does this verse prove that "a word from Allah" is what cause Jesus or Adam to come into existence. But for the sake of argument, I'll grant you that interpretation. What on earth is "the word of Allah" doing creating life? If Your God is a solitary oneness, he could create without having to say anything. If "the word of Allah" is what created everything, then you just admitted to me "the word of Allah" is God, because only God creates.
You distorted my position, I did not say that everyone who comes into existence BY the word of God or his spirit is divine. I clearly said that if someone is called "a word from Allah, named Jesus", or "the spirit gives life" as is evident by the Qur'an that implies divinity, because nothing of God's speech is created, and only God is allowed to create according to your own Qur'an. So don't misrepresent what I say, address what I actually say, if you can't, that means you have no case.
Well, that is exactly what this debate is...
"showed him the cerses that Jesus isnt God in Islam in Al Maidah "Truly they disbelieved those who say Jesus is God""
My opponent just misquoted his own book, the verse he is referring to (Surah 5:72) condemns Christians for saying "God is the Messiah" your God DOES NOT even know what Christians believe. Saying "God is the Messiah" and "The Messiah is God" have totally different meanings. Christians DO NOT believe that God is Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is God, big difference. We believe in the Trinity, not in Modalism or Tritheism, which the Qur'an falsely accuses us of.
" the cerse where "Word of God is used" is 10:19:10 meaning "If the word of your Lord didnt come a danger would have occured......." and here the verse explains that God ,akes destiny by a "Word" so birth of Jesus from his word meant God chose this and made it destiny"
Nothing in the verse suggests that Jesus came to life by the word of Allah. The verse you quote merely states that "the word" that proceeds from the Lord, they would have been judged immediately.
"regarding that HE is only one we find is Surat Ghafir verse 15 "The Lord of the throne" Thu Al Arsh the word thu in arabic strictly refers to ONE person and if they were alot itmwould say "Thawy Al Arsh""
"dhu" does not mean what you just said it means, according to Quranic Arabic Corpus, it means "owner of the throne" (source: http://corpus.quran.com...)
"this verses mention the so-called spirit of god saying God send "His Spirit" om any of His salves to make them warn people of the Last Day so it is clear that His spirit is Gabriel simce he is the angel God sent to Muhammed to teach him Quran"
I have no objection to this, according to Islam, the Angel Gabriel did reveal the Qur'an to Muhammad, while I don't believe this to be true, i'll just leave it at that.
" the next verse 40:16 it says "The One " Al wahid and not Ahad and wahid refers to Arabic number 1 "
The Qur'an here may say God alone is "the one", but that still doesn't solve the problems that I brought up, namely Jesus Christ is the name of "the word from Allah" or the problem of the Holy Spirit creating life.
"regarding the Hadith of Quran intercession I would lole to tell you if a Hadith comtradicts the Quran Muslims AGREE It isnt authentic"
So I guess that some stuff in "Sahih" narrations are inauthentic"? I personally believe that everything in the Hadiths are bogus, but for you, make up your mind, is Sahih Muslim reliable or not??
" didnt say Gos intercesses the verse in Surat Al Najm "Except after God(alone) ACCEPTS the intercession from Whom He wills and approves it " so Quran says Gid alone ACCEPTS intercession and not anyone else and he accepts the intercessiom of the Slaves good deeds like memoriing the Quran and I didnt mention anything about christianity and I dont know why you entered this subject in debate"
Okay, fair game, but you still agree that the Qur'an is a living entity that is distinct from Allah, and will intercede for people? I'll let you answer that.
" used the verse of Al Maidah "Truly they disbelieve who say Hod is third of three" to prove that Quran denies trinity and denies that God can have a plurality in His Oneness and to prove that Sporot isnt God as it gets ORDERS from God as in Al Qadr "The Angels and Spirit ascend to Earth with permission of their Lord"
Christians don't believe God is a third of three, this is again a gross distortion of the doctrine of the Trinity. No Trinitarian believes in three Gods. The Trinity says God is One, who eternally exists as three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Trinity DOES NOT say "God is a third of three". I wouldn't expect someone like Muhammad to know what Christians believe, but for God, I would REQUIRE HIM to know what it is that we believe, and yet he doesn't, proving that your God is not all-knowing as he claims. It is not a denial of deity that the Spirit gets commands from Allah. There is not merely one Angel in Islam, so you can't say that just because the Angel gets orders, that refutes the notion that he is God.
"and again I ask you why Quran denies Jesus is Son of god strictly in Surat Mary "He can never has a Son Edalted is he if he orders something he says Be and it will Be" ??
The Qur'an here says God can have a Son, yet in another verse in Surah 39:4, we read: "If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing." It seems like Allah can't make up his mind, he says that he can't have a Son, but then at a later point of time, all of the sudden he says he can have a Son, make up your mind Allah!
"and again why in the 99 attributes to Gos theres Wahid which means One ?? The 99 SiFat (attributes) are describing god and not saying God is 99 persons in one it is saying God has other 99 NAMES (asmaa allah ) and they describe HIM and
So you agree with me that it is not a contradiction that God can be One in one sense, but more than one in another sense? Okay, glad we got that out of the way.
"I leave with this verse 23:91 "God zhasnt taken Himslef into any Son nor theres no God with him as if he had PARTNERS each would have taken waht he has created and they would rise upon each other"
As for your God not having the Son, your God can't make up his mind as to whether he can have a Son or not.
Your God yet again exposes his ignorance of the Trinity. God having partners, doesn't mean God is no longer one, or that there will be mayhem in heaven amongst "the Gods". Think about it like this: There is one team that has 5 players in it. Does this mean that there are 5 separate teams? Obviously not, because the 5 persons on the team make up the ONE TEAM and they are all accomplishing the same purpose, each person in the ONE team has a specific role. Just like every person in the ONE God in Christianity has a specific role. Welcome to the world of the Trinity.
My opponent doesn't find it a problem that the Qur'an misrepresents what Christian believe, he just said that it doesn't matter, it condemns your position anyways. Well, I personally do find this to be a problem, an all-knowing God doesn't make errors like this. Like I said, I wouldn't expect a man like Muhammad to know what Christians believe, but for God, I would require it from him, as God is all-knowing, but the God of Islam is not.
Again, my opponent still insists that the Qur'an doesn't deny "Son of God" if used in a metaphorical sense. But quite clearly, the Qur'an in Surah 5:18 denies that we are the children of God, period. It doesn't deny it only in the context of Jesus being the Son of God, it denies it, period. Let the text speak for itself.
He said, "why do you think Jesus is part of God in Islam"
I've already explained why...the word proceeding from Allah was named "Christ Jesus" according to Surah 3:45. If you allow the text to speak for itself, quite clearly it is calling Jesus the Word. And "the word" is a part of God, so if Jesus is the word, he is part of God.
Let me just put the verse up again...
Surah 3:45 - Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of A WORD FROM HIM: HIS NAME WILL BE CHRIST JESUS, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah (Yusuf Ali translation)
Notice, the subject referred to as "his" is the word, and yet, the Qur'an identifies the word as someone named Jesus Christ.
By way of conclusion, I still believe that the Qur'an teaches the deity of Allah, the word, and the spirit.
The Qur'an in many places shows how the spirit creates life, something which the Qur'an says only Allah does, and in fact, Allah offers as an argument that he is God.
The Qur'an also says that "a word from Allah" is named Jesus Christ, proving that Jesus is the word. Yet, the speech of Allah is uncreated as Muslim scholars insist on this, so the logical conclusion would be Jesus is God, when you allow te text to speak for itself.
That's all I have...
1-Islam denies sonship of Jesus Christ or his divinity striaghtforwardly in Surat Mary "God coyld never have a sin" and al maidah "Truly they disbelieve who say Jesus is God" so it isnt as my opponent claims that Jesus because He was a word of God must be worshipped qnd I probed using verse "If it easnt for the word fromGod then it wouldmhave happened" which proved that describing Jesus as a word from God means that he is the destiny of Allah and metaphorically also means that He is His messanger from Allah-ie he speaks his words from Allah- and if he was to be worshipped why the verse says :Likeness of Jesus is like Adam. I created Him from dust"
2-The spirit isnt God it is only Angel Gabriel simce it says in Chapter Al Qadr "The spirit ascenda to Earth with the permissiom of ITS God" which proces that the spirit has also a God and not a part of Godship amd in Ghafir "Praised is He (God) who sends His spirit on any of his slaves to warn people" which shows that Spirit is Gabriel who revealed Quran to Muhammed.
3- The belied of "Allah,word and spirit" is strictlt demied in Surat Al Maidah "They disbelieved who made Allah a third of three in his deity" which shows that "Allah,word amd sporot" os demied and we find in the Quran God saying "Dont put partners beside me " and im Ghafir "Al WAHID al qahar" The ONE amd most Powerful" and to prove it more in Ayat Al Qursi "Allah theres no other deity beside him The Most Liviing........" and also "Allah the creator of all waht is in Heavens and Earth and to Him belongs their possession"
4-Saying the spirit has creating properties is false simce the Spirit refered to in verse describimg Adams creation when it says God blowed in him His Spirit meant He made adam alive by His orders and powers and He said "Be and it would Be" and then this means that all living things came into being by Allah only and blowing the spirit into it was the method of living and never did Quran state that the spirit created it says Allah says "If I CREATED him and blowed my spirit into Him.....,," it shows that Allah CREATED Adam and not the spirit but the spirit referred is the spirit of Adam as each person in Islam has a "spirit" "Ruh".
5- The Islamic belief of Allah is found in Quran in 3 ways 1-Unity of Allah in creating "It is He who created the Heavan and Earth and everything then show me what the alleged partners you claim to me created " "This is MY creation show me what created the partners you set beside me" and this shows that Allah alone created and nothing else 2- Unity or Worship in Surat Taha "I am Allah no God beside me worship me alone and perform prayers to Me " and "Dont worship veside me anything" and we find the only sin unforgivable by Allah is setting partners to Him and claiming they must be worshipped or they created anything with Him 4:48 "Verily, Allah fogives not setting partners beside Him in worship......" Thanks alot !
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