Does Israel have a fundamental right to exist?
Debate Rounds (4)
Singapore and Malaysia were once one country but they separated because of ethnic riots between the Malays and Chinese . This does not mean there is no Malays in Singapore or no Chinese in Malaysia . Given that both countries were blessed with far sighted leaders , there is financial and security collaboration between both the countries . Same is true up to a point for both India and Pakistan . They were separated because they could not live together and even now they distrust each other . Despite this , they have a shared culture , history and respect for each other . Is this true for Israel ? Was this true for apartheid state of South Africa. That South Africa would never let its neighbours rise because that would threaten its own existence
A country based on a single race or a nation state is a 19th century European model . Founders of Israel were European Jews and were racist to whom Arabs were nothing but primitive Bush men . Arm-twisting the Western power to curve a state for them through the UN , especially where the Arabs had no say and millions of people in Africa and Asia were under the colonial rule is a mockery of international law and justice . This does not need any explanation . After decolonization , has Israel has won a single resolution in the UN General Assembly ?
Singapore is a nation state which has diplomatic ties with Israel . But its citizens also consider it an insult to be compared to Israel , according to one Singapore Blog . This is not surprising in a world where mixture of culture , race is becoming the norm , not the exception , especially in the developed nations . You see it in America , you see it in Singapore , you see it in Singapore or Abu Dhabi . It is said that more Jews live in America , then in Israel . Would Jews accept it if Americans suddenly passed a law , stating that America is only for White Christians ?
Israel cannot exist in its present form if it returns the occupied lands to Palestinians or recognizes their right to return . Unlike the native Americans , they are not going to go away or disappear . As for terrorism , once upon a time an Iraqi Reporter threw a shoe at President Bush . Then suddenly shoe throwing become a symbol of resistance . Most third world countries have history fighting colonialism and they know how freedom fighters become terrorists . Even Nelson Mandela was considered terrorist once and put in Jail.
Time and society defines the law by which we live and operate . Take the case of British when they conquered India . In that period when Rajas , Nawabs controlled pieces of land , British were the latest conquerors who had the right to conquer or acquire by the treaty the land / wealth of Rajas and Nawabs . There were very little protest from the ordinary people to whom the British where the latest Rajas . Rules of the game were changed when Gandhi and Congress wanted Saraj or People 's rule . Ancient treaties/ laws were ineffective .
Similarly , how will Israel which is only for Jews through artificial population control and land grabs from its neighbours whom it holds in utter contempt survive ? In the century of internet, Skype , globalization , where people of different nations mix , work and connect together, even when they span different continents , this is not possible . Just like the Iron curtain fell , so will fall the apartheid policies of Israel
Since your arguments have next to noting to do with the case of Israeli fundamental existence right I will make my case. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. Let me repeat myself as to put it through to everyone in a clear fashion... ISRAEL IS THE ONLY F***ING DEMOCRACY IN THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!! Palestinian have more voice in Israel than any other country in the entire middle east. Many Arab countries actively suppress the palestinians (Jordan use to not sure anymore, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq). What country gives equal voices to the jewish population in the middle east? Name one... Israel has brought the fundamental right to everyone having a voice to the monarchical deities of the middle east. This completely debunks you theory that Israel is suppressing the Palestinian voice, how the hell are they if they are giving them a voice in Parliament?!?!?!?! And what "terrorist country" tells the citizens of an area it is attacking that they are attacking?!?!?!?!!?!?!?
Firstly , let us take the issue of Israel having the fundamental right of existence . I disagree . History shows that no state has this fundamental right . Let us a take the example of Ottoman Empire which stretched from Europe to Arabia . Did the state continue to exist ? No it did not , but why . Because the people on whose acceptance and participation made that state possible dismantled it . According to International Law , inhabitants of a country / land can not be thrown out through brutal force and their land seized . Refugees have a right to return and it is their basic right . If the Palestinians who were thrown out in 1948 from Israel return , these people will be the majority and they have the power to change the nature of the state - be it one state or two state solution . If this happens , then the present state of Israel ceases to exist ( Just like Ottoman Empire ceased to exist and in its place , we have Turkey now ) . Same thing happened to Soviet Union . If any one said that those nations / people who did not believe in the communist ideology , but had their own belief , value should have been forced to stay in Soviet Union or bombed to death if they disagreed , then that would be sheer inhumanity. I hope I have made this clear .
Israel has not given up a single piece of land to Palestinians . Occupied territories mean occupied territories , annexed territories mean annexed territories. If this is the case , where is the piece of land returned to Palestinians ? Isreal has created the largest concentration camp in the world in Gaza and West Bank where they have the immunity to capture , kill , torture , break-down houses of Palestinians . And they do it . They routinely shoot down children , take away children from their parents in the middle night . These are documented . If this is for the protection of Israel , why don't they call international army ( UN ) ? Palestinians have requested , while Israel refused .
Now let us take on the so called democracy of Israel . Let us start with an example . Is Iran a democratic state . Yes , Iran does have elections , they have parliaments , but it is not a true democracy because it is run by a group of elites ( the cleric ) who control the constitution , the election system , the media etc .
Israel cannot be considered a democracy because one has to be Jewish and belief in Jewish value system to be its citizens . Just like Iran , Israel is controlled by the Zionist . If I don't believe King David ever existed or was a great guy , I cant be a citizen of Israel . This is a part of their oath of citizenship . Yes, Israel has some Arab Muslims , but they have very limited rights and face extreme discrimination . Their houses and property are taken away at the will of the government . They are ostracized and a large number of the Israelis want them to be expelled . As for the Palestinians in the occupied territories , they have no right at all. They cannot go from one place to another , access to water , food , housing materials is denied or harshly rationed . Any development , like schools , hospitals are routinely demolished . There is one law for settlers , another one for the Palestinians. Israeli soldiers also use human shield , ( women , children ) when they attack the Palestinians . They also have torture cells . All these are against human rights and break the International Law .
All these prove that Israel is an apartheid state . Further proof is the humiliation and put down of Arab Jews . These were the people who were forced to flee their Arab lands , one reason was Zionists carrying out terror attacks in these Arab countries , blaming them on the Arabs and creating panic . One well published case was in Egypt during Nasser time , when police intercepted and caught the perpetrators who were Zionists . Either Jewish is based on race or belief . If it is on race , then those who cannot trace their origin to Ancient Israel cannot claim Israel as their homeland . Europeans Jews cannot , Arab Jews can . Palestinians can too - as many of them were Jews before they converted . Neither can anyone prove the existence of Abraham , Mosses , Exodus , King David / Soloman and their mighty kingdoms and other stories in the Bible . Study of history shows that Israel's neigbouring countries hardly talk about Israel at all , Egypt does not , Babylon does not . Palestinians on the other hand have a heritage with proven existence ( be it Cannite , Jewish , Christians , Muslims ) . Neither did these people live in deadly conflict with their neigbours as Israel did in the past and does now . ( Source : http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com... )
As for Israel being a homeland for those who don't have a homeland, this is ridiculous . Israelis are not homeless - many of them settle in USA , Europe , having double citizenship . Displaced people are the Palestinians . Neither is Israel like America which called on the poor , displaced to its mighty shores promising liberty and freedom . It still does - It might take in displaced Iraqis , displaced Afghans , many poor Africans etc , but what about Israel ? If you are not Jewish , you can go to hell .
Quotes on Israel :
I.F. Stone, US journalist ( Another famous Jew ) :
"Israel is creating a kind of moral schizophrenia in world Jewry. In the outside world the welfare of Jewry depends on the maintenance of secular, non-racial, pluralistic societies. In Israel, Jewry finds itself defending a society in which mixed marriages cannot be legalized, in which the ideal is racial and exclusionist.
A533;Ben Gurion declared. 'Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwiztz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.' " [Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish Paradox, p. 99]
Bernard Russel on Israel
Other Reference :
Ehnic Cleansing by Illan Pappe
Palestine before 1948
This also speaks about Apartheid , but is soft on Zionism
Hanspete forfeited this round.
Israel was created by a group of people who still lived in the 19th century belief system - a belief system which was based on western superiority, their rights to dictate to others . How did the West see the middle -east ? Naturally they saw it through their bible stories.Though a typical Christian or Jew had very little common with the middle eastern culture , they saw the Arabs as the outcasts , who had taken over their Holy land . Despite the fact Arabs being the true Semites and embodying the middle eastern culture which is the basis of the Bible . If we did not have to take into account the massive tragedy involved (total displacement and humiliation of a people), then the whole thing would be a farce. A group of people financed and helped by powerful well -oiled organization ( eg Roschilde ) appears from nowhere to claim a land to which they have no linkage for thousands of years. It is well known that religious Jews stayed in or visited Palestine and there were no problems.It is equally well-known that slightly less religious Jews stayed in neigbouring countries. So here we have a group of secular Jews - a high percentage of them communist coming to lay a claim to the Holy-land in the name of their so called ancestors.Zionism is a secular movement, not a religious one. It does not take rocket science to understand that ancient Jews were not a separate race, neither did they appear from another planet. Ancient Jews were part of the Semitic race- the only difference was their religious belief. Just like Christians , Muslims , Buddhists are not a separate races , but religious entities .Suddenly after the advent of secular Zionism , Jews became a race. I mean one may not believe in God , the bible & still claim a stake in the Holy land based on their ancestors who probably would reject him/her , if they had the chance. After all , secularism is based on materialism - I want the land , who cares about the religion? Does secular Jews have a right to claim the f Holy-land? I don't think so.
Now let us take the case of ethnicity ? Zionists claim all the Jews can trace their origin right back to the ancient Jews , while the Palestinians are Arabs.Though Zionists are supposed to secular , they use the Bible to support their claim. Archeology has proved that there was no exodus, no kingdom of David or Solomon.Ancient Jews were no separate from their neighbours, apart from their religion and even their religion/ culture were linked to /with their neighbours. Neither was there big style ethnic cleansing by the Jews nor was there big style exile of the Jews.These stories are made up. I know Jews celebrate the big style ethnic cleansing, while mourning their exile. As there was no exodus, naturally there was no need for the big style ethnic cleansing. Why would all the big power descent on the Jews , while leaving other tribes along . Just like Pharoah did not drown in the red sea, neither did massive style exile take place . What happened then ? Just like many Jews were secular , others became Christians and Muslims and the religious Jews gathered around or stated put. This is an expert from Jewish Library " Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea. " Palestinians has always claimed their ancestors to be Cannites , other Semitic people . Jews , Christians etc . To them , If Abraham ever existed , he would also be an Arab . Genetic research also points to this direction . But what about the modern Jews ? At one hand most of Jews who went to Europe did so on their free will ( not because of the exile ) . And most importantly most of the European Jews are either Europeans and mixed blood . Why should Palestinians who can trace back their origin to the ancient people give up their land for a people who are mostly European and are not even religious .
Finally Let us take the case of legitimacy of Israel State ? Now we hear that Palestine is not a state , . If Palestine is not a state , then how can Israel be a state . I mean UN resolution in 1948 supposed to have given birth two states , not one . If the legitimacy of one of the state ( Palestine ) is under question , then this must also affect the legitimacy of Israel .
Finally there is a saying that it is the people who give legitimacy to a state . It looks like neither Isreal's neighbours nor the Palestinians who have more similarity with the Biblical images and ethos have given the State of Israel that legitimacy .
I am not giving any references this time . In the next rebuttal I will give my references .
Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.
The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.
Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war."
All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Muslim who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.
-All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.
-The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.
Now Gandhi is incorrect, the Palestinians were simply occupiers of the land Palestine, now Palestine has a new occupier, The Jews. Lands will be controlled by one people for one period of time (Jews occupied the region of Palestine till about the 1300's or so, Arabs 1300's to 1948, now Jews 1948 to present) no one truly owns the land, but this land was specially promised to the Jewish people by God himself and he has not failed to keep that promise. Israel was not created on the thought of Western Superiority many Western Countries HATED the Jews i.e. The Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, I'll be honest those are the only two I can come up with off the top of my head. I will not dispute the fact that many Europeans saw the Arabs as outcast, but we can't judge them by out normal standards because that was their normal standard at the time. Can you source the communist thing, that for my personal curiosity not for the debate and I will ask the Voters not to judge based on whether or not she can source that (if anyone is that picky). Zionism is a religious movement, Jews wanting to reclaim the Promised Land to them by God. I will not deny that many Zionists were secularist but I don't believe that is the case in the modern day. In response to your claim that the exodus was false as well as the Kingdoms of Solomon and David provide a reasonably valid source, such as a respected archaeologist. Okay with the Abraham thing yeah he would be an Arab but he converted to Judaism and became Jewish. I also agree many Jews left of their own free will it is natural for people to go where prosperity is flourishing, at the time cities that had good economic conditions also had significant amounts of Jews (along the Mediterranean). This includes Venice, Barcelona, Thessaloniki, and Constantinople. To say we Jews are not very religious at the time would be wrong, to say that now is sadly very true (with the exception of those in the holy land). Now for your two state resolution, the Jews were willing to sign it the Palestinians were not. Palestine rallied multiple Arab Countries to drive Jews out and destroy the two state resolution. Israel fought back, they took lands that were militarily critical to their survival. This does not affect the legitimacy of the Israeli state for the Jews occupy lands given to them by the U.N. and took lands they needed to stay militarily functional, as recognized by the U.N. today, with the exception of Gaza.
 http://www.iris.org.il... (Read Article 23)
Soviet Union broke up because majority of its people did not want to stay communist and within the Soviet Union . Did they mean that Soviet Union had the authority/ right to call the majority of the people who did not agree with Communism to brand them as enemy of the state . However , especially during the Lenin and Stalin ,decade , Soviet Union did have laws for Enemy of the people and they killed millions of people . Is Israel like Soviet Union? Any Arabs staying inside Israel has a perfect right to say what kind of state they want . This cannot be a reason for not recognizing the right of Palestinians to return their land from which they were forcefully evicted . This is the International Law . Many Jews in Israel want to dismantle the Israel state and if in the future they become the majority will Israel expel the majority of Jews and bring in new Jews ? . If they cant do it to Jews , they cant do it to Arabs ? Most Arabs living in Israel are evicted from their land and this land is given to the settlers ( no difference is made between Muslims and Christians). Most Jews want Arabs to be expelled . Many have asked why should Jews whose homes are in USA , UK or other remote countries and who have nothing in common with middle eastern culture or ethnicity have precedence over the Palestinians who have living there for thousands of years. Many of these Palestinians were Jews themselves and had converted to Islam . You say you want to return to Israel , then why don't you ? Most Jews live outside Israel , not inside . This is a historical trend. This is called economic and cultural migration . Most Muslims don't live in Mecca or have an Arab culture or belong to the same ethnicity . This is also true for Jews . You also talked about Boxer Muhammad Ali in America . It is a fact that America once had apartheid like laws for the blacks. Against this there was the Civil right Movement . One result of the Civil right Movement is that Barrack Obama has been elected as the President . Will a Muslim Arab ever be elected as a President in Israel ? I don't think so , because Israel does not allow mix marriage , one has to register one religion and one cant write Jew without the Rabbi permission . One can be a Jew in Israel as per their constitution , but one cant be an Israeli.
As for your argument that if citizens of a country don't agree with their government , then they should be thrown out and their land annexed is ridiculous . Then South Africa could have build walls around its black population and taken their voting rights away to protect themselves and ensure that the country remains a white apartheid state . Your logic is that Israel got those territories because of war and so they have the right of occupation . Wrong . International Law and UN resolution is quite clear that Palestinians have the right of return and they also have the right to dissent . If this right of the Palestinians is recognized , then Israel will atomically cease to be a Jewish state , just like South Africa ceased to be an apartheid state . The name of the state may also change .
Gandhi was right . That is why Indian flag includes the colour of all religions ( no matter how the small the population is ) , while Israel flag has only the Star of David . India is a secular state which considers all its population , their culture , their religion to be part of itself , while Israel consider itself only for the Jewish .
Zionist were secular and mostly communists and leftists . Religious Jews forbid the return to Israel and they believe in a spiritual Jerusalem not a material one . Most Jews before the Zionist take over believed the same . Soviet Union supported the formation of Israel . Most leading communists who took a played a key role in formation of Soviet Union were Jewish . Soviet Union also wanted to create a Jewish republic inside Soviet Un ion where only Jews would live . This failed because of the resistance of the local population and also the Jewish people who saw no reason why they should be concentrated in one place
Gaze and West Bank are occupied territories , so is Golan Heights , There has been repeated UN resolutions for the return of these territories . Gaza and West Bank are not under the control of Palestine authorities as you claim . It is not the Palestine authorities who are building walls , seizing the best lands for the settlers and curtailing access to food , water and building materials . It is Israel . What Israel is doing is illegal and morally wrong - plain and simple . It has nothing to do with security concern - it is plain land -grabbing and ethnic cleansing . If Israel was interested in security , it would have called in the UN security forces or the International security forces . Palestinians have requested , while Israel has refused . Israel has also shot and killed international people of other countries who have tried to break the barricade placed around the Palestinians. Israel is not sincere about the Palestine state because it is vetoing the idea and as usual USA is supporting Israel . Use of phosphorus in war , collective punishment , deliberately targeting children are all violation of international law . One cannot go after Saddam Hossain , without going after Israel
During the second World War , all Europeans hated the Germans , during the South Africa's apartheid period , most blacks hated whites. So if most Arabs hate Israel , whose fault it is . Israel cannot keep on attacking its neighbours and destabilizing the whole middle -east and expect to be loved . Just ask what Latin American think of USA . Israel has always acted in the interest of Western forces in the Middle east . For example , Israel attack on Suez -canal in the interest of Britain and France - nothing to do with Israel's security . This attack was carried out in response to Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal .Recent example is the arming of Islamic terrorist groups attacking Syria and this group is committing all sorts of heinous crime and has nothing to do with Islam. Israel also armed Iran during the Iran and Iraq wars , though Israel's official position that Iran is a terrorist state.The so-called six days war started after an pre-emptive strike by Israel . It was Israel which started the war .
It was not a long time ago , during President Bush , era , there was a doctrine of failed states and regime change . No country needs a regime change better than Israel , no country can be considered less democratic than Israel . Without the recognition of the rights of Palestinians within and outside its border , Israel does not have a fundamental right to exist . Just like Hyderbad a small princely state inside India disappeared ,because most of its Hindu population wanted to merge with India . Same thing happened to Sikkim , another small state beside India . Recently there was a vote in Scotland to see whether it wanted to be separate from Britain . No state has a fundamental right to exist , apart from the will of its people .
No , Palestine was never a occupied territory of the Arabs, Palestine was similar to Iraq , Syria , Jordon - history shows no ethnic cleansing. It took nearly 100 years for the gradual conservation to Islam -before the majority of the people were Christian , and some Jews . Palestinian population is mixed - no ethnic cleansing happened before the arrival of Israel . There was no need to do so . Israel needed the ethnic cleansing , because without that there would be no Jewish state
Zionism : http://www.nkusa.org...
UN Resolution against Israel ( Must read to see the truth versus the myth )
I have work to do . I am now stopping
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ajabi 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I give Conduct to Con because Pro used a lot of bad language something I feel he should be penalized for even more. Pro did have better Spelling and Grammar in general though, but Con often had careless, sloppy sentence structure. I give arguments to Con because Pro had the burden of proof, but did not give any positive argument as such, he also did not rebut all of Con's arguments, and showed poor conduct. He also forfeited a round. In the end I overall vote Con.
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