The Instigator
pivot
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
talacon1
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Does Judaism and Christianity teach that the Angels are subject to the Word of God?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/25/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 509 times Debate No: 63928
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
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pivot

Con

The Con position, (mine) is that two of the major world religions, namely Christianity and Judaism teach rebellion to God's Word through the device known as Angelic Beings. Examples-

1 Judaism teaches that Satan and Lucifer of Old Testament fame are neither good nor bad.
2 Christianity teaches that Angels are good.

Con's position is simple: There are none good. (Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10)

Now tell us Pro, (who ever you are) that these verses which are part of the word of God do not apply to the Angels.
talacon1

Pro

The original Hebrew word translated "angel" means "messenger." Thus, when the Old Testament says that some are good and some went bad, it doesn't mean that an angel is, because unlike our thinking of them being called that as a race, the Bible shows that they aren't angels if they aren't on God's side. In other words, angels are messengers from God, but that is what they are referred to as being only when they are for God. Angels turned wicked are no longer angels, but are demons. Also the Scriptures you cited are referring to men not angels. (Jude 1:6)
Debate Round No. 1
pivot

Con

First of all let us look at the scripture Pro presents-

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." Jude 6 NIV

Rebuttal:

1) Pro says that if the angels aren't on God's side then they are no longer angels. But Jude 6, the scripture that Pro presents in argument number 1 clearly calls them angels. Jude 6 does not call them demons. The Jude 6 angels are not on God's side and Jude 6 calls them angels.

2) As for the idea that the Bible word "angel" means messenger-

This is Con's point of the idea of "device" in argument number one. The device is that the "angels" are secured by the works of the LAW. The angels don't need a Savior because the angels are perfect in the eyes of the LAW. Now if it can be shown that the nation of Ancient Israel and the descendents of the nation of Ancient Israel are the "messengers", in other words, the "angels" then they don't need a Savior. They are justified by the works of the LAW. Which is exactly what Judaism preaches/teaches.

3) Pro in fact says flat out that the scriptures that Con presented in opening argument number one do not apply to the angels. Exactly what Con said. Christianity and Judaism teaches specifically that the Word of God does not apply to the Angels.

End of Rebuttal.

Argument number two:

Since the Word of God does not apply to the Angels as Pro admits in argument number one-

Lucifer/Satan/Beelzebub/etc. could not have possibly fallen because the Word of God does not apply to them. They didn't do anything wrong according to the logic of Pro because the Word of God does not apply to them.
talacon1

Pro

Yes at Jude 1:6 the scriptures do say angels, but it says they are being reserved with eternal bonds, under dense darkness, for the judgment of the great day, so they have lost their privileges as God's messengers, and this proves that they are subject to the Word of God.
Debate Round No. 2
pivot

Con

Rebuttal:

Wait just one minute there Pro. You can cop out if you want but this debate isn't about whether or not the Bible teaches that the Angels are subject to the Word of God. This debate is about what Judaism and Christianity teaches about the Angels. And these two religions have traditionally taught that the Bible does not apply to the Angels. Here is another example-

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14

Now here we have an interesting problem. From the traditional Judeo-Christian teaching there can be an infinite number of examples of Satan transforming into an Angel of Light in the world. But not one example of Satan transforming himself into an Angel of Light in the Bible. If 2 Corinthians 11:14 applies to the angels then an example of it should be given in the Bible. Here is your next challenge Pro-

Give at least one Bible example of Satan actually transforming himself into an angel of light like 2 Corinthians 11:14 says that Satan does.

End of Rebuttal

Argument three:

The Prodigal Son: Here is the entire passage-

Luke 15:11-32 New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Lost Son

11 Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, "Father, give me my share of the estate." So he divided his property between them.
13 "Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 "When he came to his senses, he said, "How many of my father"s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants." 20 So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 "The son said to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son."
22 "But the father said to his servants, "Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let"s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." So they began to celebrate.
25 "Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 "Your brother has come," he replied, "and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound."
28 "The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, "Look! All these years I"ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!"
31 ""My son," the father said, "you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.""

Now Pro think carefully on this next question-

In this parable of Jesus' who is the eldest son?

Pro, please identify for us the eldest son.
talacon1

Pro

One problem here is that we have different views of what is Christian and Jewish. The name I give the churches of
so-called Christianity is not Christianity, but rather, Christendom. There is a big difference. The true meaning of being Christian is that true Christians follow Jesus teachings, but Christendom teaches their own tradition, and so does modern Judaism as it isn't the same as the Biblical Judaism. Examining this, one must have a complete knowledge of the Bible, to compare it with what the churches and synagogues teach. Our only interest should be in what the Bible says, not "Judeo-Christian" beliefs which are human traditions, not Bible truth.
Debate Round No. 3
pivot

Con

Rebuttal:

Like what was said in the first part of the last rebuttal-
You can cop-out. But I was asking for two specific Bible related questions-

1) Give one Bible example of Satan transforming himself into an angel of light per 2 Cor. 11:14

2) Identify the eldest son in Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son

Pro, since you didn't even make an attempt to give an answer to the above questions it must be assumed that you don't know what you are talking about. So I would say that you have been rendered biblically ignorant by the Western Judeo-Christian philosophy. It is a disease that causes strong delusion. Here let me try to cure you Pro-

Characters represented in the Parable of the Prodigal Son:
1 The father = God
2 The Prodigal = mankind
3 The eldest son = the dragon and his angels

Whoops on that third one there Pro as you plainly said that angels who are not on God's side are no longer angels. But Revelation 12:7 clearly says 'dragon and his angels'. But I am trying to compromise with you and plug 'dragon and his angels' into the Parable of Jesus since the eldest son is not on God's side concerning the youngest son. The eldest son is jealous of the younger brother.

Now Pro I want to help you out on the 'Satan transformation' thingy-

If we could find a Biblical way to transform Satan into Michael then we could give the character list of the Prodigal this here way-

Characters represented in the Parable of the Prodigal Son:
1 The father = God
2 The Prodigal = mankind
3 The eldest son = all the angels of heaven

But alas, the disease of Western Judeo-Christian philosophy is not going to allow for such an interpretation. So Pro you may close your eyes to it. And I will end the last of my rebuttals to you.

Summation:

All that comes from mixing Christianity and Judaism is mixed up Christians.
talacon1

Pro

One Bible example of Satan turning himself into an angel of light is even in the garden when he spoke to Eve through the serpent- he made it appear that God was holding something back, and that he would provide where God didn't, basically making God appear to be the bad guy and Satan being the angel of light. However as the Scriptures show, he was clearly deceiving the woman and was no true angel of light. As for your argument of the eldest son being the dragon and his angels, why would Satan be part of God's family? Satan wouldn't even be the prodigal son who did bad and then came back because Satan is completely against God, and has been forever cut off from God's family when he deceived Eve. Satan has no part in God's arrangement because he rebelled against God and decided that his own way would be better. Obviously from the state the world in, Satan has no place ruling anything. The part where I agree with you is that the demons disobey God's Word, but my point is that Satan and the demons will still stand judgment and be destroyed with all wicked ones. (Romans 16:20)
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
The bible says that all the angels have been sent forth to minister to those who are heirs of salvation, the reborn man. Angels are a lower class of being than man. Now man fell under a fallen angel. But Jesus came to raise us up above the angels to our first estate, sons and daughters of God.We are in the God class. That is why it takes faith to raise us up to our rightful place , no longer servants, but sons of God and joint-heirs with Jesus, the Christ.

Jesus proved the word of God has the power to defeat our enemy, satan. He said " IT IS WRITTEN, and ran the devil out of there. We have the same right and privilege.

Paul even said angels are messengers. The thorn in the flesh was a " messenger of satan sent to buffet him"." The care ( worry) of all the churches buffeted him.
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
pivot
Pro,
Excellent. Excellent.
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
pivot
I believe that you are living a good life of high value. That can be seen in your postings. As for you being an atheist-

As a Christian I know that there are atheists in Heaven.
Posted by Atmas 2 years ago
Atmas
Is that a remark about me being an atheist? If so then I offer a counter point, live your life as if you will have none other, lest you are incorrect in your beliefs and live a life not worth living.
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
pivot
Fair enough Atmas. But I would like to point one thing out-

In the Old Testament the Angel of the LORD is a real fast draw with a sword. Maybe he is a bit to fast for you.
Posted by Atmas 2 years ago
Atmas
If god created everything, including the angels, and stated that all was good, then all angels (even lucifer) is good. It was also never stated that angels were created in gods image as humans were, so they would not possess the same qualities that humans share with god, normally referred to as free will. Without free will, they have no agency to choose beyond what god wishes. This is, of course, not considering the fact that gods omniscience doesn't allow humans to have free will either, but that's another debate.
I would take this up, but I think you would better served by someone who isn't so critical of religion.
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