The Instigator
Flame
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Composer
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points

Does Prayer Show the Lack of True Faith?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Composer
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,697 times Debate No: 21635
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

Flame

Con

==========
INTRODUCTION
==========

Composer made this truth claim in his forum "Prayer Show the Lack of True Faith." His argument was, "ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!" 1 I challenge his truth claim that "prayer show the lack of true faith." I will argue that prayer of the genuine Christian shows true Biblical faith which "is belief, trust, or commitment in God through Jesus the Messiah" 2 according to the Bible.

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CLARIFICATION
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The debate is not regarding the existence of the God of the Bible. I would like for our readers to take notice of my opponent's complaint since it presupposes the existence of the God of the Bible. However, the debate does focus on the nature and purpose of faith and prayer in a Christian's life. He also accepts the Bible as the primary source and authoritative for Christian doctrine and practice due to the fact that he cites it as evidence for his argument. I remind our readers to follow DDO's rules in voting. 3

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DEFINITIONS
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Faith: "To believe" means to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, [to] place confidence in. [And in] a moral and religious reference, pisteuein [from pisteuo] is used in the N.T. of a conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul. (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 511). 4

Predestination: translated from the Greek word proorizo which means 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand; 2) in the NT, of God decreeing from eternity; 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand.1 Predestination, then, is the biblical teaching that God predestines certain events and people to accomplish what He so desires. 5

Prayer: a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession. 6

Truth: 1. The true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. Conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 7

Evidence: All types of information (observations, recollections, documents,
concrete objects, etc). 8

Proof: A body of evidence supporting a contention. Those facts from which a
conclusion can be drawn. 9

Bible: (Protestant Christian Bible) Divided into two parts. The first is called the Old Testament, containing the (minimum) 39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and the second portion is called the New Testament, containing a set of 27 books. 10

God: An absolutely perfect being that possess the following perfections: omnipotence, omniscience, perfect goodness, aseity, incorporeality, eternity omnipresence, perfectly free, alone worthy of worship and unconditional commitment, creator and sustainer of the world. 11

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RULES
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1. Sources must be listed on the comment section to free available characters for arguments.
2. New arguments can not be introduced from Pro or Con.
3. Bible translations from all translations spectrum will be allowed. (except JW, of course and other translations that are questionable that are not up to standard, example: gender issue, etc).

4. Burden of Proof: The burden of proof is on Pro since it is common knowledge that prayer is indeed showing true faith to the God of the Bible.

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STRUCTURE
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1. Round 1: Acceptance and Clarification ONLY.
2. Round 2-5: Argumentations
Composer

Pro

As a non-believer, I can NOT & will not accept the terms relating to there being a literal Supernatural god of any kind!

I am happy however to Post and Debate with my opponent/adversary accepting that his terms in that regard are unreasonable, but if he accepts my use of ' bible Story book god & bible Story book ' then we can continue around those parameters!
Debate Round No. 1
Flame

Con

==========
INTRODUCTION
==========

My opponent's argument once again, "ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!" My opponent may have said, "As a non-believer, I can NOT & will not accept the terms relating to there being a literal Supernatural god of any kind!," but his argument still presupposes the existence of God. Secondly, the definition of God is accepted by both theist and non-theist in the realm of Philosophy whether Pro accepts it or not . 2 Third, Pro also suggested an alternative hermeneutics (his own) to arrive at a proper interpretation of the Bible. He never clarified his own principles of interpretation or explained why our readers should accept his alternative. I want to point out that my opponent is not an expert in said field to even propose his own personal alternative in the first place. Howard Hendricks, professor of hermeneutics at Dallas Theological Seminary, gave the contexts one must not ignore and principles to go by when to interpret literally or figurative. 3 Fourth, my opponent never objected to taking on the BOP since it is common knowledge that prayer does not show a lack of faith. Therefore, terms are reasonable and stands.

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MY CASE
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C1: Genuine Christians understand that predestination, is the biblical teaching that God predestines certain events and
people to accomplish what He so desires.

-The biblical teaching of predestination is not quite an easy doctrine to grasp, yet we can know truths in what the Bible have to say about it. Notice the word "certain." Certain is defined as, "fixed; agreed upon; settled: on a certain day; for a certain amount." 4 Within the "Godhead" (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit), there was a settled agreement concerning events such as the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, 5 world empires, 6 second coming of Jesus, 7 Israel becoming a nation again, 8 etc. These are examples of specific events and persons that the Bible clearly ascribes it to God. However, as Duewel points out, "The Will of God is not always a fixed decree." 5 He explains that statement by writing that, "it is often used in the Bible in the sense of God's plan, purpose, or desire. By far, the most common word in the New Testament for God's Will is thelema. It is used for that which God wills or emotionally desires" ( Rom. 1:10; 2 Cor 85; Eph. 1:5, 9, 11; and He. 10:36.) 6 He gave this example, "God wills all people to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) and be saved ( 1 Tim. 2:4). But not all do."7

C2: Genuine Christians understands that most things that occur in our lives are through secondary causes.

-Most of what occurs in our lives are not from God, but are through secondary causes. These secondary causes are categorized as such: nature and its laws, human beings, and satan. If He does not intervene to prevent it, He has permitted it. But, that is not to say that God is the cause or responsible for all things that happens. 5 An example of a secondary cause given by Duewel "....would be if a building collapses with a loss of life, it is not to say God willed their deaths. If it was not constructed properly, man is the responsible cause. The people died by God's permission, because He did not intervene to put extra bracing by miracle power. And He does not normally do that." 6 God does not normally intervene to transcend secondary causes or restrain them. He can do so. Example, He can forgive, answer prayer, guide, restrain, or perform a miracle.

C3: Genuine Christians understands that prayer is not just communion with God, but also partnership with God.

-I like how Yancey puts it, "prayer is cooperation with God, a consent that opens the way for grace to work." 7 The Apostle Paul writes that, "As God's partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God's kindness and then ignore it." 8 It is important to understand, as Sanders states, "It is noteworthy that in the prayer recorded in Matthew 6:9-13, the first half of the prayer is totally occupied with God and His interests. Only after that do personal petitions find place." 9 Solomon writes, " Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight." 10 This is important because when it comes to the will of God, in one sense it is one unitary whole and in another sense, God's will consist of many details. 10 The God-given resources in guidance to the Christians are the following: The primary sources of guidance: the Bible, 11 the Holy Spirit, 12 the "mind of Christ" 13 and the secondary sources of guidance: providential circumstances, conscience, 14 the counsel of others, 15 and common sense. 16 However, the secondary sources must be informed and guided by the primary sources.

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PRO'S SYLLOGISM AND REBUTTAL
======================

P1: "ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct"

-C1 and C2 explains that the will of God is not always a fixed decree and that there are two aspects of God's sovereign will. That is, God's will of approval and God's will of permission. You can just can nor ascribe everything that happens to friends, families and ourselves to God when there are secondary causes. 11 There is simply no Biblical support for that. That is not even the Biblical teaching of predestination. Where is the evidence from the Bible that teaches that God is responsible or the cause for everything that happens to us, friends and families?

P2: "because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time"

-The God of the Bible does not operate as you stated in P1. Perhaps the "prefered god." This is a misclassification fallacy.

C: "however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!"

-C3 Explains how prayer does not go against the God of the Bible, but rather, it is a partnership. In addition, the Christian was given resources in guidance.
Composer

Pro

Your ' definition ' of what a prayer is, missed your critical weakness -

i.e. prayer1 n. 1 a request (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

Prayers/Requests are hence the actions by way of a disbelieving group or individuals that plead and test their god(s) abilities out to make them/it reverse or undo what they/it was supposed to have got right the first time and every time, but obviously didn't, and failed, and now its disbelieving community want it & ' request by lack of faith and trust ' that their god gets it right first time every time ' to do a better job next time or alter the likely outcome. LOL!

Hypothetically allowing for Prayer to influence your imagined god(s) first decisions to permit atrocities or consequences or decisions and your subsequently asking and requesting them/it to change their/its minds and to do as you ask now in prayer, would only reinforce your god(s) willingness to accept: e.g. -

i) That their/its first decision was in error?
ii) You don't accept that what your god(s) first determined was correct!
iii) You know better than your god(s)!
iv) You don't have full confidence in your god(s) that they/it always gets things right the first time!
v) You are testing your god(s) to see if they/it listens to you!
vi) You are tempting your god(s) to change it/their minds because you disagree and think what they first did needs reversing or correcting.

&

#Con the doubter & sinner exposed again: Those like Con,that pray, are (according to their Story book god(s)) are not true believers, but doubters & sinners: . . . . for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. (Rom. 14:23) KJV Story book

Scrambling for Prayer Con, is another admission of your doubt & lack of faith resorting in appeals and requests to test your Story book god to see if it will heed your appeals!

&

The next fundamental blunder of doubting jesus' believers that resort to Prayer because their weakness of Faith in not letting their Story book god do what it allegedly knows best first time every time and thus knowing the so called christian Story book god is a jealous, vicious and narcissistic god (cf. Exod. 20:5 & Luke 19:27) KJV Story book, they have no idea that it is even their god that might respond, because it is far more likely that a non-christian god (who isn't the jealous nor narcissistic type) might respond; but permit the credit go to their jealous & narcissistic alleged christian god, otherwise it will have another Story book childish jealous fit of rage again and possibly destroy mankind again, because even its alleged own alleged believers profound lack of faith by them praying for it to do what they want and not having faith that their Story book god knows best without their interference through prayers because of lack of their faith, LOL!

My Faith is especially profoundly superior to so called ' jesus believers ' because my superior Faith knows with 100% certainty and accuracy that the next genuine jesus' believer to step forward outside of Story book bible Land, will be the very first in man's history and I can prove that easily using your own preferred Story book bible should ANY wish to step-forward and by their alleged faith be tested by it accordingly?
Debate Round No. 2
Flame

Con

Flame forfeited this round.
Composer

Pro

Much much much much much much better luck next times IF you wish to try your luck against me on another Topic!
Debate Round No. 3
Flame

Con

Flame forfeited this round.
Composer

Pro

Composer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Flame

Con

Flame forfeited this round.
Composer

Pro

Composer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
Composer, just a heads up: you get voted on several categories. Of which one is conduct, so try to be considerate. Yes, you are on the correct side of the proposition, but try to have proper debating decorum while arguing.
Best of luck!
Posted by Gileandos 4 years ago
Gileandos
@Flame - C1= ugh!
Posted by Flame 4 years ago
Flame
Will post source for round 2
Posted by Flame 4 years ago
Flame
Actually it's rule number 1.
Posted by Flame 4 years ago
Flame
@KeytarHero: Thanks. I really doubt he will take the challenge. Been waiting for a while.
Posted by KeytarHero 4 years ago
KeytarHero
Just a thought, in the rules section you may want to include the rule that sources can be placed in the comments section. That way no one can count that against you when it comes time to vote.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
FlameComposerTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited less :/