The Instigator
Apokiliptik
Pro (for)
The Contender
distraff
Con (against)

Does The Bible (Old Testament and New) Teach That Jesus Is God?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 494 times Debate No: 97637
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Apokiliptik

Pro

I intend to demonstrate to the reader that the Bible teaches Jesus of Nazareth is God. Many people of many religions and ideological backgrounds deny this.
distraff

Con

Of course the new testament says Jesus is God, that is literally its main claim. But the old testament doesn't say any of that, and all Christians can do is point to misinterpreted prophesies. I challenge pro to support the idea that the old testament teaches Jesus is God.
Debate Round No. 1
Apokiliptik

Pro

I'm not willing to concede anything. I will do my best to try to accommodate my counterpart if I can.
Who is God? What is God like? I think we need to answer those questions to help us understand if Jesus is the God of the OT.
What is the first thing we learn about God. He is the Creator. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Does this match what we know about Jesus? Well, as a matter of fact it does: John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
As creator, God has control of nature. Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD swept the sea back by a strong east wind all night and turned the sea into dry land, so the waters were divided.
The Psalms comfort us with a poem about God comforting us and protecting us from the elements. Psalm 107:28 Then they cried to the LORD (YHWH) in their trouble, And He brought them out of their distresses. 29 He caused the storm to be still, So that the waves of the sea were hushed. Jesus carries out this Psalm in a literal way and demonstrates control over creation.
Matthew 8:26
25 The disciples went and woke Him, saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing!" 26"You of little faith, Jesus replied, "why are you so afraid?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it was perfectly calm.

God is a provider. let's look at this part of God's personality. Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
Here God makes mundane provision for his creatures by his power as creator. In the next instance He does so miraculously. Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.
Jesus follows His Father's example in the miracle of feeding the 5000. Matthew 14:15-15 When evening came, the disciples came to Him and said, "This is a desolate place, and the hour is already late. Dismiss the crowds, so they can go to the villages and buy food for themselves." 16 "They do not need to go away, Jesus replied. "You give them something to eat." 17 "We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered 18"Bring them here to Me," Jesus said. 19And He instructed the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He spoke a blessing. Then He broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples to the people 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.
Jesus by His divine power acts as provider.

God is an agent of Justice. This shows up in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 18:20 20And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21"I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." God's answer to Sodom and Gomorrah was harsh and final.
Jesus actions as an agent of Justice are more mild and it makes sense. Matthew 12:20 "A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.
So how did Jesus deliver Justice? I believe he did it through His teaching. Mark 12:38 38 In His teaching He was saying: "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, 40 who devour widows" houses, and for appearance"s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Luke 11:46 But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.

So what we first ask ourselves is; does Jesus match the description of Yahweh in the OT.
distraff

Con

There is a lack of verses saying that Jesus is God. They only claim that he is God's son and have him talking about himself and God the father separately. It is inferred that they are the same but there is no hard proof. The verse that says that "I and my father are one" could easily mean that they are of the same opinion and beliefs not that they are the same person. This puts into doubt whether even the New Testament says Jesus is God like I previously thought. But let me address your arguments even assuming the New Testament claims he is God.

The Jews believe in the Old Testament and yet do not see Jesus as God. The Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet but that he isn't God. Obviously the New Testament may say they are one and the same but the Old Testament never specifically refers to Jesus in any way and only mentions Yahweh the Hebrew God.

I noticed that you argue that shared traits prove they are one and the same. Christianity is based on the Judaism so it is no surprise Jesus has many traits of the Hebrew God, and only proves that the writers of the new testament wanted Jesus and the Hebrew God to be the same. It doesn't prove the old testament writers were thinking of Jesus when they were writing about God.

The shared traits you mentioned are: creator, weather control, provider, and judge. In addition to what I said about this shared traits fallacy many Gods have these traits. We see myths about Gods creating the world, controlling the weather, making the things we live on and helping us sometimes, and judging humans at the end of the world.

But there are some major differences. In the old testament there is no mention to an after-life and Jews don't believe in one. So the ultimate judgement in the old testament is death, and in the new it is hell. Also while the old testament God punishes violently, demands killing of unbelievers, and has a long list of rules with many deserving death when disobeyed, the new testament God asks for non-violence and pacifism and has more general kindness related rules.
Debate Round No. 2
Apokiliptik

Pro

I guess I need a bit more time. I'll let this round pass to my counterpart.
distraff

Con

Here is the verse showing how the father being one with the son doesn't prove they are the same person.
John 17:21-23 ...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me ...that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.

The father is in the son as the son is in us, and the father and the son are one as the son is one with us. This is spiritual unity not literally being the same person.

Here are some verses supporting the separation of God and Jesus.

Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Jesus had to be made perfect:
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Some things only God knows not even Jesus:
Matthew 24:36 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 5:30 By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.

Mathew 26:39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

God is Jesus's God and father as he to us:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven.

Peter doesn't call Jesus God, and only called him God's son:
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Apokiliptik 1 year ago
Apokiliptik
OK I didn't get burned the system is just locked up.
Posted by Apokiliptik 1 year ago
Apokiliptik
I got burned on my debate round. The system was down when I checked in and so I had no access.
Posted by distraff 1 year ago
distraff
>> The old testament says God " created " Jesus.

Where is it say that?

>> Only Jesus's mortal form " died " on the cross but Gods spirit which had animated the human form lived on.

Where is the biblical evidence that God's spirit was in Jesus?
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
How does two days off for an eternal being count as a death payment?
Posted by GrimlyF 1 year ago
GrimlyF
T he old testament says God " created " Jesus. Man cannot worship a created being so it was " reinterpreted " in the new testament that God made Jesus from part of Himself. So Jesus is God problem solved. Only Jesus's mortal form " died " on the cross but Gods spirit which had animated the human form lived on.
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
Gods can't die, but Jesus died...................
Posted by fred70 1 year ago
fred70
Jesus is God Almighty!
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