Does a God exist?
Debate Rounds (5)
First round is for acceptance only.
The first part of this was to attempt to validate some parts of the bible and validate it as well as any other history book can be validated. However it does present some points that may allude to the fact that god is indeed real. This would be the conclusion of my first argument
"I would like to readily concede you the fact that the bible is not infallible, however, this being said, no historical account are accurate, history is written by the victor and often distorted over time."
My first point about this statement would be if you say that the bible is not infallible, how am I to know what you believe in and what you don't believe in. Essentially you're cherry picking from the bible. I don't mean that in any way of offense but you have admitted to the bible being wrong sometimes. So how am I suppose to know what is true and what is not?
My second point about this statement would be I don't agree with your point that history is written by the victor. Everything we know about the past has been cross-checked numerous of times with various sources, historians, etc. We do not simply take the story of the victor and accept it.
Moving on to your point about Noah's Ark. You say that there have been ancient cultures that have accounts of similar enormous flood occurrences. I don't see how that proves that your God exists. To my knowledge, there is only one story about a mass flood wiping the population of mankind off the face of the Earth except for one man and his family in the bible. Just because other cultures may have had "similar" occurrences doesn't mean that they were the same events and it certainly doesn't prove that your God exists. I also see no credible evidence that the flood took place and that Noah stuffed two of each animal into the Ark.
"This also reaffirmed by scientific findings, this flood could refer to any one of the times that earth's surface has been covered by water."
No it could not have. The bible is very specific about it being the time that the water was either above or at the highest peak on Earth. To my knowledge, nobody has demonstrated that a mass of water has ever approached the height of Mount Everest.
To your point about the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, scientists have conclusively proven that the sites where the cities were supposedly located was actually the site of a meteorite impact. The debris from the meteorite drifted south into the cities. This would explain the "nuclear bomb" like destruction.
You are trying to prove that Jesus resurrected by saying that there were large number of eyewitnesses accounts of him resurrecting. However, these accounts only exist within the bible. There are no historical documentations of him existing let alone resurrecting.
Cherry picking from the bible will get you no where. Certainly there are truths in every piece of fiction including the bible. This does little to prove their actual credibility. If you believe in the Christian God, I am assuming you also think of him as "all-knowing", "all-powerful", and "unchanging". This then contradicts with your statement that the bible is not infallible since it is said in the bible that the original authors were directly inspired by God to write it. Also since the original bible was written in Hebrew, there have been many different translations and interpretations to the bible by questionable authors. This would be the conclusion of my first argument. On a side note I apologize for jumping around quite a bit in my points. I am new to this and it would be fair to say I have zero experience. Thanks guys and to my opponent.
Your first problem is in assuming I'm a regular bible thumping christian. I believe in one being that essentially rules the universe. I believe he has many names depending upon the culture you come from. I choose to call him by the judeo-christian name of God. However, I would like to point out that i'm not on trail here so what I believe in shouldn't be a point.In response to the accusation of "cherry picking" from the bible I would say you are absolutely right. Just like with any other historical document or account I do my research and only believe in the parts that can be validated for the most part. However, the bible is a historical document that record the events of a certain time period even though it is written from only one perspective. As for how you are supposed to know what is true and what is not, you would need to apply some thought as to the situation and possible evidence.
"I don't agree with your point that history is written by the victor. Everything we know about the past has been cross-checked numerous of times with various sources, historians, etc. We do not simply take the story of the victor and accept it."
I find this to be an extremely interesting viewpoint. It is true that humans attempt to fact check and find out the truth but we must realize that we will never know everything that really happened in the past. In order for historians to research ancient times they often have to use written records. In most times during history, such as the dark ages, the only people that were literate were people that had some position or power. History was written by the victors quite simply because the losers. Another example of this would be in ancient times during the conquest of Alexander the Great. The siege of Tyre begun in 332 BC. During the siege Alexander made a land bridge to the island and sacked it, killing absolutely everyone inside. In this case, as well as many other cases, history is written by the victor because there is nobody else to write it. Ruling authorities have changed history to suit there own ends since the beginning of time and while we may be able to prove some fallacies we must remember that historians can only do so much because they were never there. Plus, if it was truly covered up effectively we wouldn't ever know about it to ask questions.
" You say that there have been ancient cultures that have accounts of similar enormous flood occurrences. I don't see how that proves that your God exists. To my knowledge, there is only one story about a mass flood wiping the population of mankind off the face of the Earth except for one man and his family in the bible. Just because other cultures may have had "similar" occurrences doesn't mean that they were the same events and it certainly doesn't prove that your God exists."
Here is an abridged list of the number of cultures that include a story similar to the great flood mentioned in the bible. Cultures include Greek, (considered the birthplace of western civilization as we know it) Celtic, Sumerian, Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Masai (East Africa), Hindu, Korean,Zhuang (China),Southern Australian,Hawaiian, Kwakiutl (north Vancouver Island),Lakota, and Inca. These are major cultures from every continent except uninhabited Antarctica. Small differences are noted throughout all of them but the similarities are even more astonishing. You may disagree with the account given by the bible but to say that this never happened would also be refuting the historical record of countless major cultures throughout history. This list is just a fraction of the cultures that have a great flood story in them. I believe a similar story all around the globe where it is impossible that the story could have spread (from China to Peru for example) points to the fact that there is some truth in this story. One of the most notable other stories the flood is alluded to is in the "Epic of Gilgamesh" which is revered by historians as one of the oldest STORIES (not myths) known to mankind. Scientific soil core samples show that there was in fact a great flood of epic proportions that occurred in the Mesopotamian area around 5000 BC, which is estimated to be the time of Noah. The evidence is there if you choose to look for it. I could carry on however I believe I have offered enough evidence.
"To my knowledge, nobody has demonstrated that a mass of water has ever approached the height of Mount Everest."
First of all, Everest hasn't always been the highest point. Second of all, Everest,along with several other Himalayan mountains, are capped with a type of rock known as calcite which is commonly created by marine organisms. Fossilization only occurs with the rapid removal of oxygen and rapid burial which would indicate quickly rising and falling waters. Some hypothesize that these fossils and calcite are from when Everest formed by pushing up from the ocean floor. However, the process of mountain building is slow and it is impossible that these fossils and calcite layer would have withstood the weathering and erosion that occurs in the Himalayas for that period of time. (approximately 60 million years ago)
"To your point about the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, scientists have conclusively proven that the sites where the cities were supposedly located was actually the site of a meteorite impact. The debris from the meteorite drifted south into the cities. This would explain the "nuclear bomb" like destruction."
You're right. The power did come from a heavenly body known as space. However, to the people in the cities and from the perspective of an author of the bible it would appear as the wrath of god, However, in your previous statement you provided evidence to support the theory that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are in fact real and that scientists discovered a meteor destroyed them. It sounds very similar to the historical account of the bible as well.
"You are trying to prove that Jesus resurrected by saying that there were large number of eyewitnesses accounts of him resurrecting. However, these accounts only exist within the bible. There are no historical documentations of him existing let alone resurrecting"
Your statement that there are no objective sources that proves Jesus's existence outside of the bible is a false one. There are in fact, several. Roman historian Tacitus wrote concernning emperor Nero
"Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . ."
Lucius was a Greek satirist that wrote this concerning Jesus
"The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . ."
These along with other allusions are sources and words taken from historical findings including letters, books, and other sources. However, none of these come from the bible and yet all three describe Jesus and his crucifixion.
Just because I chose three stories from the bible in order to give it some credibility as a source does not mean that I cherry pick for my liking. It simply means that I have neither the time nor the patience to research the entire bible for you.
I challenge you to present some of your evidence that points to the assumption that there is no god.
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