The Instigator
NKJVPrewrather
Pro (for)
The Contender
KostasT.1526
Con (against)

Does freewill exist?

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/12/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 days ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 205 times Debate No: 107910
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

NKJVPrewrather

Pro

I believe that freewill exists. I have the free will to murder or not to murder. I use my free will to be in a relationship with Jesus. I choose to obey laws. I choose, because God gave me free will.
KostasT.1526

Con

Hello, and thank you for this debate.
I, being Con, will be arguing against the existence of free will.
The definition on which I am to base my arguments is the following:
Free will: The ability of an individual to choose among options, without being restricted to one in any way.
In the case my opponent finds the above definition incorrect or insufficient, I would appreciate them to notify me via a comment on this debate, so that an open discussion can occur without wasting debate rounds.

It seems that my opponent has based this debate on the premise that the Christian God does exist. In spite of mine being an atheist, I will elaborate on my thesis taking this assumption as a fact.
First of all, the Christian God is by definition deemed omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent and omnitemporal, as well as the Creator of literally everything.
Omniscience is the ability of one to know everything, and therefore God too has to know absolutely everything, apparently including future events.
Therefore, God actually knows every choices a being is to make, even before they are made. God's omniscience cannot be violated, and thus a person cannot in fact choose among their options.
For example, let person 1 be standing in front of a newspaper stand, having to choose between newspaper A or newspaper B, and an omniscient observer. While person 1 is struggling to pick a newspaper, the observer knows that they will choose A. The observer's omniscience cannot be violated, meaning that they cannot have false knowledge, hence restricting person one to newspaper A. It would be impossible for person 1 to choose B, as the observer knows that they will choose A. Long before the moment of the choice, even before the birth of person 1, the omniscient God did know which newspaper they would purchase that day. There is no room for choice. Newspaper B was destined to remain on the stand after the visit of person 1.
My opponent may well claim that it was their choice to have faith in God, to not murder or to obey laws, but this is incorrect. If an omniscient God does exist, my opponent did not actually have the choice, but was set to act in that manner from the moment of their creation. Free will is simply not possible.
I await my opponent's rebuttals and arguments in round 2.
Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

I of my own free will chose to start with this debate. I believe denying free will is like denying gravity. You can see neither, but see their effects. Were you forced to accept this debate?
KostasT.1526

Con

"I of my own free will chose to start with this debate."
This is an argument of circular logic [1]: "Free will exists because I started this debate due to my own free will because free will exists". My opponent bases their statement on the assumption that free will does indeed exist.

"I believe denying free will is like denying gravity. You can see neither, but see their effects."
This is a "weak analogy" logical fallacy (or, rather, simply a weak analogy) [2]. My opponent compares free will to gravity, claiming that, since the effects of both are deemed invisible, their properties, including existence, will be the same as well.
Gravity is in fact a concept vastly different than free will. On the one hand, gravity, namely the property of massive objects to attract other massive objects (energy and relativistic mass are involved too, but let's not overcomplicate things) is observed in everyday life, as massive objects are always attracted by massive objects; this is a law, the law of gravity. On the other, free will is not actually observed. What we are aware of is the fact that we do act thinking we could have chosen to act in a different manner, but what I am arguing for, based on the assumption of the existence of the Christian God, is that there is one factor that restricts us to one sole choice, without us realising. That factor is God's omniscience. My opponent through the above statement dismissed my whole thesis without justification.

"Were you forced to accept this debate?"
Assuming an omniscient divine entity, the answer is "yes'. As to why, please read my arguments of round 1.

My opponent did not address my arguments at all. To be honest, my expectations regarding their response were a lot higher.

Sources:
[1]. "Circular Reasoning", Logically Fallacious:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com...
[2]. "Weak analogy", Logically Fallacious:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com...
Debate Round No. 2
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

I of mny own free will choose who I vote for. I have chosen my religion when I was 15. How about this example?
KostasT.1526

Con

My opponent clings to their fallacious, as previously demonstrated, examples, yet again without addressing my round 1 argument. If what they wish for is a direct answer, stemming from my argument, it shall be "no". If we accept an omniscient God as a premise, you neither have the free will to choose in favour of whom you are to vote, nor did you choose your religion when you were fifteen years old. It was what we would call "God's plan" that you vote for a specific person or choose the said religion, just like a programmer is able to program a device or software to act in a specific manner. When God knows, with absolutely no doubt, that person 1 will choose the newspaper A instead of newspaper B, before even person 1 was born, there is no room for decision on person 1's behalf. Person 1 will do what God has programmed him to, through his divine omniscience, unable to choose newspaper B. God has predetermined person 1's and your actions, therefore restricting you to a certain choice and making free will impossible.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Lacrutos 3 days ago
Lacrutos
Amphia:

Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Are you willing to do something? God is the reason you are willing to do so in the first place. Being presented with a choice is just that, being given a choice. How you will decide has been decided since before you were made.

Psalms 139:16
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

You have conflated the power to choose with being given a choice these are in fact two separate issues. God has presented many choices however no one has ever had the ability to go beyond Gods Will.

There lies most of the Free Will arguments problem, no one denies that choices are given they just deny that God is the Cause of both the situation and the choice.

Proverbs 16:1
16 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.

Both the Preparations and Answer is from the Lord.

Ephesians 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

See there --- ALL --- things are worked after the counsel of his own will. Even Evil:

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6
6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Even the Wicked are made for the Day of Evil.

Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

However:

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That is good news, all who Die in Adam (Everyone) shall be made alive by Christ.
Posted by Amphia 4 days ago
Amphia
I feel like your argument has a flaw:

Just because God knows what is going to happen does not mean he is restricting what people do. Person 1 decides between newspaper A or B. God does not interfere, simply watching and knowing the will pick A. God did not force them to choose A, God just knows the future. The person still has free will to choose A or B, it is just that God knows the answer already.
It is the person's choice, and God simply knows their choice before person 1 knows their choice.
Posted by kwagga_la 1 week ago
kwagga_la
@SirDave I think that God knowing what you will choose and causing the choice is not the same thing. I know the sun will be visible tomorrow in my part of the world and it will be day but does that mean i caused it to happen? Knowing and causing is not necessarily synonymous.

I think the problem as discussed relative to the Bible gets confusing because people tend to define things in ways that do not reflect Bible definitions. For instance: God forgives sin and choose not to remember it. That's something not known anymore.
Posted by SirDave 1 week ago
SirDave
But it does. If God knows everything, and God has the power to do everything, then are you really choosing. God knows what you are going to choose, and according to that, he is making the choices for you. If God exists and is both, then you don't have free will, you have a predetermined life, that doesn't matter in the end because you never really did anything. It was someone choosing for you.
Posted by ffr123 1 week ago
ffr123
god is Omniscient and Omnipotent and that does not make his creation can't have freewill.....
Posted by SirDave 1 week ago
SirDave
Is this god also omniscient and omnipotent? If so then no I don't think there's free will. I'll be happy to accept if you clear this up for me.
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