The Instigator
DudeStop
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
dave123
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Does god exist

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Post Voting Period
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after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/15/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 982 times Debate No: 42408
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (20)
Votes (0)

 

DudeStop

Con

Hello.

1. pro will go first, then in the final round put : "Nothing" to make it fair.
2. The BoP is on pro, to show that god is real.
3. FF's, count as conduct.
4. Anybody who accepts this also accepts that this will be a serious debate.
5. We will be arguing for the biblical god.

If pro does not follow all of the rules, pro loses the debate.
dave123

Pro

1. Just look at the complexity of our world, everything is designed with a purpose, and I don't believe that this all could've happened by random chance. The universe is like a perfect clock, the conditions on Earth are just perfect for life: not too close or far from the sun, perfect size, water, oxygen, stays in constant orbit, perfect moon, oh, and did I say water?

2. First cause: The universe had to have been created by something, the universe couldn't just come from nothing. I'm almost certain that something can't come from nothing. There had to be some creation, maybe like in Genesis, or maybe like the Big Bang, but either of those had to have a cause.

3. When atheists say they have looked for God but never found him: "The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman."

4. People know the difference between good and bad, so in my opinion, there has to be something that is absolutely good: "A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line."

5. Also, some very smart men (probably smarter than you or I) have believed that there has to be a god, such as: Copernicus, Galileo, Isaac Newton, Einstein, and many more.

6. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature, someone must've put these into place.

7. God pursues people, he wants people to believe in him. A lot of people have become believers after God has spoken to them, or saved them.

8. Jesus: Jesus' historical existence has pretty much been confirmed, and his Divinity has been documented by many reliable sources, not just the Bible.

By the way, I believe that evolution was a possibility, and if so, it would have been a tool that God used, and he had a plan from the very start.
Debate Round No. 1
DudeStop

Con

Thanks for that Pro.

This shall be so brutal!

"1. Just look at the complexity of our world, everything is designed with a purpose, and I don't believe that this all could've happened by random chance. The universe is like a perfect clock, the conditions on Earth are just perfect for life: not too close or far from the sun, perfect size, water, oxygen, stays in constant orbit, perfect moon, oh, and did I say water?"

Notice that pro did not cite one source or give any evidence to this. Not a shred of evidence. He says: "**I don't believe** that this all could've happened by random chance"

So we know that this is now not a debate about facts, but rather his beliefs. I don't believe that god is real. (Does that mean my argument is as good as his now?)

Even if we assume that this argument is complete, it can easily be refuted:

THE MULTIVERSE: Is the idea that there is more than one universe: There are in fact so many universes, that eventually our universe with the exact conditions we need to survive came to be.

"2. First cause: The universe had to have been created by something, the universe couldn't just come from nothing. I'm almost certain that something can't come from nothing. There had to be some creation, maybe like in Genesis, or maybe like the Big Bang, but either of those had to have a cause."

Here's one:
Simultaneous Causation:

This is the idea that cause and effect can happen simultaneously. The cause of the Universe could have happened at the same time of it's effect. Let's say we have atoms A, B, and C. If atom A causes atom B, then atom B would cause atom C, and atom C would cause atom A.
Why accept god over simultaneous causation?

"3. When atheists say they have looked for God but never found him: "The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman."
? What? What does this have to do with anything? I guess if you'll be throwing some insults, I have nothing to lose... (Except for conduct)

"There are two types of people in this world: Intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."

4. People know the difference between good and bad, so in my opinion, there has to be something that is absolutely good: "A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line."

People actually form opinions on what is good and or evil.

Bob thinks gay marriage is evil.
Sally thinks it's fine.
Sally thinks abortion is evil.
Bob thinks it's fine.

Are these not plausible scenarios? We can therefor assert that good and evil is actually an opinion.

"5. Also, some very smart men (probably smarter than you or I) have believed that there has to be a god, such as: Copernicus, Galileo, Isaac Newton, Einstein, and many more."
Albert Einstein was actually an atheist. This proves nothing still.

"6. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature, someone must've put these into place."
Why? Pro refuses to back up his arguments it seems...

"7. God pursues people, he wants people to believe in him. A lot of people have become believers after God has spoken to them, or saved them."

Why should we assume god did this? There are many people from different religions who claim god spoke to them as well. This does not prove anything. It's only evidence that people naturally think that god is speaking to them, when really it's their conscience. Should we accept the other religions as well? Jewish people have also claimed god spoke to them, it's not proof of a god.

"8. Jesus: Jesus' historical existence has pretty much been confirmed, and his Divinity has been documented by many reliable sources, not just the Bible."

Saying the evidence in history that supports religion isn't the evidence for a skywizard. Also, please feel free to share a bit of this "evidence"...

"By the way, I believe that evolution was a possibility, and if so, it would have been a tool that God used, and he had a plan from the very start."
This is what so wrong with religion. The church used to think the earth was flat, until science disproved it. Then they said: Oh, look at god's masterpiece... This just proves how great he is. Up there is another example, of when they they change there mind once science disproves them. This is not an argument for god though, it is for a separate debate whether god made evolution or not.

As of now, Pro's arguments' are unsourced, refuted, and off topic.
dave123

Pro

First off, I'd like to thank Con for creating this debate.

"This shall be so brutal!"
You are validating my (and most of the world's) inherent distaste for atheists who think they know everything.

1. Here are the sources that I should have posted in the previous round:
http://www.slideshare.net...
http://news.discovery.com...
-You can start watching the video at 15:48

And yes, I did say "I believe...," because that is what faith is, thinking something to be true, when you can't 100% prove it. Just like theists, atheists also have faith that there is no God.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
-Hebrews 11:1

"THE MULTIVERSE: Is the idea that there is more than one universe: There are in fact so many universes, that eventually our universe with the exact conditions we need to survive came to be."

The Multiverse is just an IDEA, which means that there is literally no scientific proof of it. I thought that was what you atheists wanted right? Proof?

2. "Simultaneous Causation:
This is the idea that cause and effect can happen simultaneously. The cause of the Universe could have happened at the same time of it's effect. Let's say we have atoms A, B, and C. If atom A causes atom B, then atom B would cause atom C, and atom C would cause atom A.
Why accept god over simultaneous causation?"
I don't see any sense in this theory. The way I'm seeing it, there is a grandmother, who gives birth to (creates) a mother, who gives birth to (creates) a daughter. So you are trying to tell me that the child at the same time created the grandmother?

3. Haha, I'm sorry for throwing that quote in there, I guess I wasn't really thinking straight when I posted that.

4. "People actually form opinions on what is good and or evil."

Yes, there are some things that seem to be moral or immoral depending on the person, like abortion and gay marriage. This is because of the Fall from Grace, which is explained figuratively through Adam and Eve. The reason that we have original sin and are inclined to sin throughout our lives is because the Devil ruined our Original Holiness. Despite this, we always have a basic understanding of good and bad. For example, we know that it is good to be kind, loving, and giving to others. We would know that it is bad to kill a bunch of children, or steal from the poor.

5. "Albert Einstein was actually an atheist. This proves nothing still."

No he wasn't.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
-Albert Einstein
http://einsteinandreligion.com...

Einstein may not have believed in the Christian God, but he definitely wouldn't support your side of the argument.

6. "Why? Pro refuses to back up his arguments it seems..."

I was referring to the Law of Universal Gravitation, Ohm's Law, Newton's Laws of Motion, Laws of Thermodynamics, Conservation of Energy, etc...

These perfect laws that our universe abides by wouldn't just some into existence on their own. Also, these laws are perfectly described using math. Is that also just a coincidence? Are numbers real? Or just because we can't see them, does that mean numbers aren't real?

7. There is really no way for me to explain this to you, you have to experience it for yourself.

8. There is a very good book by Lee Strobel (former atheist) called The Case for Christ about this subject. I know you're gonna hate this, but other than that, you gotta have some faith.

Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
-Matthew 14:31

9. "This is what so wrong with religion. The church used to think the earth was flat, until science disproved it. Then they said: Oh, look at god's masterpiece... This just proves how great he is. Up there is another example, of when they they change there mind once science disproves them. This is not an argument for god though, it is for a separate debate whether god made evolution or not."

The church used to think that the Earth was flat? The Bible says otherwise. This particular verse is from the Old Testament, which means it was probably written about 3000 years ago.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
-Isaiah 40:22

"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing."
-Job 26:7

This verse shows an understanding of how gravity holds the planets in orbit, and this verse was also written about 3000 years ago.
Debate Round No. 2
DudeStop

Con

I UNDERSTAND THAT THE OPPONENT I HAD FORFEITED THIS ROUND.

I ask for conduct.

I extend my (Un-refuted) arguments.

I am seriously sick of FFS.
dave123

Pro

Sorry to disappoint, but I didn't forfeit.

"Yet it doesn't matter. He only tells me that he doesn't think it's likely, he only asks if simultaneous causation is simultaneous, (which it is)

I still extend my arguments. He did nothing to disprove a multiverse.

1.) To prove that their is a god, there has to be a need for one.
2.) There is no need for a god to show the mechanics of our universe
3.) There is no god."

I simply want you to explain how the simultaneous causation is logical. Is there anything in our known universe that's cause and effect is simultaneous? Just think about it using the grandmother-mother-daughter analogy, it simply doesn't make sense.
I would like to ask you, why accept the multiverse or simultaneous causation over God.

Also, I can't disprove your multiverse or simultaneous cause, but I'd like you to disprove God.

1.) OK, why is there something instead of nothing?
2.) Are the mechanics of our universe just random happenings also?
3.) Have you ever heard of wisdom of the crowd? It states that as individuals, humans are often wrong, but as a group, the average is incredibly accurate. I am comparing this to the fact that for thousands and thousands of years, mankind has believed in some kind of god or gods. Most (if not all) of these believers have been wrong , but it all points to some kind of deity. There have been about 109 billion humans to have ever lived, and I heard somewhere that more than 90 billion believed in a supreme being(s).

"I thought for some reason you forfeited... Sorry mate.
But I still extend all arguments. Saying it's an idea does nothing to refute it. I asked you why we should accept god over the multiverse/Simultaneous causation."

Exactly, and you have yet to disprove God. You have only provided alternates to God, most of which are irrational and illogical. Just because God created a universe that we can't fully understand, doesn't mean that we need to try to think of ways other than God from which it was created.

Lastly, I would like you answer one question. Why is there something instead of nothing?
Debate Round No. 3
DudeStop

Con

I'm very sorry. I was almost positive that pro had forfeited the debate. I have some theories on what happened.,but I humbly apologize and ask that you give him Conduct points. Thank you.

Yet because I lost conduct, this will be just that much more interesting.

:The Multiverse is just an IDEA, which means that there is literally no scientific proof of it. I thought that was what you atheists wanted right? Proof?"

In this argument I asked my opponent to:
Say why we should accept god over the multiverse.

He has not answered the question.

He also conceded to the simultaneous causation theory.

Pro has failed to prove why there is a god. The BoP is on him to make arguments, I only have the job of refuting them. Pro is failing.
"Have you ever heard of wisdom of the crowd? It states that as individuals, humans are often wrong, but as a group, the average is incredibly accurate. I am comparing this to the fact that for thousands and thousands of years, mankind has believed in some kind of god or gods. Most (if not all) of these believers have been wrong , but it all points to some kind of deity. There have been about 109 billion humans to have ever lived, and I heard somewhere that more than 90 billion believed in a supreme being(s)"

Yet not the biblical god. That is what we are debating.

Proof of simultaneous causation:

"Kant gave the example of a ball resting on a sheet. The cause of the curve on the sheet is simultaneously caused by the ball. Experiments in quantum entanglement by Alain Aspect show that when the spin of one photon is affected, it instantaneously causes an entangled photon to take the opposite spin"

Pro has failed to meet his burden of proof. He does however, rightfully deserve conduct. I have proven simultaneous causation is true, so we do not need to assume it's god.

THE ABOVE IS VERY SCATTERED, EASILY REFUTABLE ARGUMENTS WITH POOR GRAMMAR INVOLVED. IT'S CHRISTMAS, AND THIS TOOK ME ABOUT 5 MINUTES....
dave123

Pro

Nothing, so that it is fair.
Debate Round No. 4
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
Disprove simultaneous causation and the MultiVerse or show why god is a better option for them.
Posted by dave123 2 years ago
dave123
lol what do I do now?
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
I thought for some reason you forfeited... Sorry mate.

But I still extend all arguments. Saying it's an idea does nothing to refute it. I asked you why we should accept god over the multiverse/Simultaneous causation.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
I thought for some reason you forfeited... Sorry mate.

But I still extend all arguments. Saying it's an idea does nothing to refute it. I asked you why we should accept god over the multiverse/Simultaneous causation.
Posted by dave123 2 years ago
dave123
what is FFS?
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
/Moral.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
I also extend the opinion argument. Obviously the person who stole from the poor the out it was perfectly fine.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
Yet it doesn't matter. He only tells me that he doesn't think it's likely, he only asks if simultaneous causation is simultaneous, (which it is)

I still extend my arguments. He did nothing to disprove a multiverse.

1.) To prove that their is a god, there has to be a need for one.
2.) There is no need for a god to show the mechanics of our universe
3.) There is no god.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
Wait what.... I thought he forfeited.... Weird. Anyways, I'll say my points next round...
Posted by Hellvisse 2 years ago
Hellvisse
"I am seriously sick of FFS."

Funny.
No votes have been placed for this debate.