The Instigator
AfroNazi
Pro (for)
The Contender
Hooded_Freak
Con (against)

Does systemic white supremacy exist?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
Hooded_Freak has forfeited round #3.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/4/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 547 times Debate No: 93347
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

AfroNazi

Pro

Far too often I have seen white people mock and belittle the issues facing black people on a global scale from all fronts including psychology, health, and warfare. With this debate I hope to clear any misconceptions and shine a light on what truly is a system of white supremacy that is not just in America, but also in countries with little to no white people inhabiting them. I hope to break down the white supremacist power structure in psychology, health, warfare, sexuality, law, politics, and more if I am able to.
Hooded_Freak

Con

"Far too often I have seen white people mock and belittle the issues facing black people on a global scale from all fronts including psychology, health, and warfare. With this debate I hope to clear any misconceptions and shine a light on what truly is a system of white supremacy that is not just in America, but also in countries with little to no white people inhabiting them. I hope to break down the white supremacist power structure in psychology, health, warfare, sexuality, law, politics, and more if I am able to."

I look forward to engaging in this debate with you. As you are the one who has initiated the debate, and you are the one making the positive claim, namely, that systemic white supremacy exists, the burden of proof for such a claim falls on your shoulders. Since it would be immoral to incriminate anyone of being "white supremacists" without proof of this claim I am going to take the position of innocent until proven guilty. Namely, that the vast majority of white people are not white supremacists and are not intentionally involved in creating or perpetuating a system of white supremacy.

Now, lets get some definitions out of the way, since you are the one arguing for this position, I want to know what your definition of the following are: "Systemic", "racism" and "white supremacy"

I am going to assume, you can correct me if I'm wrong that you are arguing that when you say system white supremacy "exists", you mean that it is an ongoing reality that is happening currently, right now, and not some time in the past. I disagree with this claim.

I am also going to assume that when you say "systemic" white supremacy exists you mean that it is widespread and has significant effects and influence on society. That is to say, that you are not speaking of fringe groups that have no political influence and are very small and insignificant, or a handful of racist individuals. Again, I disagree with this claim.

Now I will pass the floor over to you, to make your argument.
Debate Round No. 1
AfroNazi

Pro

My definition of 'white supremacy' (as an institution) is "a power structure that involves white control over resources, influence over people, population control, and anything pertaining to keeping whites in power with the ability to oppress others legally, militarily, economically, etc."

For the definition of systemic; "of or relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part."

As for the word 'racism', I rarely use this word as it is wildly used as a "buzzword" that throws people off and unfairly shuts down arguments. I shall give you a definition of the word 'racism' nonetheless. "Poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race". Keep in mind we live in a world where people think they are clever comparing the original Black Panther Party to the Ku Klux Klan without knowing the KKK is profoundly white supremacist while the Panthers where mild black nationalists and secular humanists that worked with whites, Latinos, and Asians.

I will begin by providing an explanation. As my opponent correctly stated, the burden of proof is on myself. However, my opponent is incorrect in assuming that 'white supremacy' is no longer an institution and is merely reduced to fringe groups and individuals. In reality, these groups of white supremacists (usually self proclaimed 'white nationalists') are merely people with prejudice and beliefs in racial superiority whether they have power or not. That being said, the system of white supremacy is not based on prejudice or emotion but on power and influence.

One of the many ways white supremacy is able to function is due to economic power and the accumulation of resources from nations with primarily people of color. It is a fact that Africa is the most resource rich continent on the planet with an abundance of minerals including diamonds, coal, platinum, gold, and bauxite. Non whites make up the majority of the planet have are native to the majority of the land masses of the world. However, it is obvious that White owned countries of Europe and North America (excluding Mexico) are relatively economically stable as opposed to the majority of other nations that are either third world countries or developing countries. Anyone who knows history but denies the existence of white supremacy would simply attribute this to a form of colonialism that supposedly no longer exists while anyone who vocally believes in the ideology of white supremacy would attribute this to Europeans being "biologically superior." Both of these are false as there is still foreign influence in third world/developing nations and there is nothing scientifically proven that could lead people to believe in the superiority of the white race outside of blatant Eurocentric pseudoscience.

I hope that we can come to a consensus that whites are not superior to blacks biologically. I will continue with the pretense that my opponent agrees and then I will expound on my argument.

To understand white supremacy in antiquity, one must have a knowledge of history as well as politics and law. The Trans Atlantic slave trade between the mid 15th century and the mid 19th century involved a system of instigating/intensifying violence between the native Africans and capturing the refugees as well as buying prisoners of war, criminals, and indentured servants as slaves. The system used in the transatlantic slave trade involved 1)divide and conquer tactics 2) supply of firearms and alcohol 3) intense psychological damaging of slaves as a means of control 4) black elitist puppets to work for white interests (in my community, we call these "house niggas" as a slang term for collaborator/opportunist)

http://www.understandingslavery.com...

With the above example, this shows that a systemic structure of whites antagonizing people of color using a number of tactics is not at all inconceivable.

In modern day, Africa is still suffering the effects of the Trans Atlantic slave trade (which hurt the population of Africa) and the colonization of Africa (which hurt the continent economically). This combined with current events will hopefully shed light on the situation, providing context so everyone can see the bigger picture.

http://passblue.com...

Modern day colonialism tends to be in the form of 'neocolonialism'. Neocolonialism is defined as "the use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries, especially former dependencies."

One example of this is France (a nation with military bases in several African countries) has been exposed for soldiers committing sexual abuse to black boys in the Central African Republic within the past two years and to this day, they force African former colonies to pay a "colonial tax" to France. And lastly, the "colonial pact" keeps French companies in Africa to cheat their former colonies out of better business deals in favor of giving industries to "former" oppressors.

http://thisisafrica.me...

With the detailed examples above, I hope to provide context for the general acts of enslavement, invasion, colonialism, genocide, etc. done throughout the planet with the system of white supremacy. From the invasions of Africa(15th to 19th centuries), the Middle East(2000's), the Americas (15th to 19th century), 20th century Latin America, 17th century Oceania, 19th century opium wars in China, 19th to 20th century Dutch East Indies, and more all the way up to modern day neocolonialism, mass incarceration of minorities, manipulation of puppet states to *instigate conflict, use of bioweapons, and much more.
Hooded_Freak

Con

I don't accept your definition of white supremacy I instead suggest Wikipedia's definition: White supremacy or white supremacism is a racist ideology centered upon the belief, and promotion of the belief, that white people are superior in certain characteristics, traits, and attributes to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore white people should politically, economically and socially rule non-white people.

I agree with your definition of systemic: "of or relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part."

Now combining these two, to prove that systemic white supremacy exists you would have to prove that the government system, and its institutions: police, education, law, and so on are 1: Run by people who believe that white people are superior, and are actively promoting this belief and 2: Are ruling non-white people politically economically and socially.

Or alternatively you would have to show that society (the general public), and its institutions private businesses, religious groups, communities and the general public (white people in this case) are: 1: Run by people who believe that white people are superior, and are actively promoting this belief and 2: Are ruling non-white people politically economically and socially.

If you can show 1and 2, in either general society or the government then you will prove your hypothesis. Now lets see if you have satisfied these requirements.

"Keep in mind we live in a world where people think they are clever comparing the original Black Panther Party to the Ku Klux Klan without knowing the KKK is profoundly white supremacist while the Panthers where mild black nationalists and secular humanists that worked with whites, Latinos, and Asians."

Saying the Panthers were mild black nationalists is a gross mischaracterization. The Black Panther Party is, according to the FBI: "a black extremist organization" that "advocated the use of violence and guerilla tactics to overthrow the U.S. government"

Some lovely quotes from the leaders of the Black Panther Party include:

"Our lessons talk about the bloodsuckers of the poor" . It's that old no-good Jew, that old imposter Jew, that old hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, Johnny-come-lately, perpetrating-a-fraud, just-crawled-out-of-the-caves-and-hills-of-Europe, so-called damn Jew " and I feel everything I'm saying up here is kosher."
" Khalid Abdul Muhammad, Party Leader

"I hate white people. All of them. Every last iota of a cracker, I hate it. We didn't come out here to play today. There's too much serious business going on in the black community to be out here sliding through South Street with white, dirty, cracker whore bitches on our arms, and we call ourselves black men. " What the hell is wrong with you black man? You at a doomsday with a white girl on your damn arm. We keep begging white people for freedom! No wonder we not free! Your enemy cannot make you free, fool! You want freedom? You going to have to kill some crackers! You going to have to kill some of their babies!"
" King Samir Shabazz, head of the party's Philadelphia chapter

The quotes speak for themselves, I could make the case that the Black Panther Party is a racist, black supremacist terrorist organization but instead of wasting characters on this obvious fact I trust the viewers can come to that conclusion themselves.

It is extremely hypocritical that you seem to so strongly condemn white supremacist organizations, yet strongly support black supremacist organizations and suggests to me that you may be a black supremacist yourself.

"That being said, the system of white supremacy is not based on prejudice or emotion but on power and influence."

There you have it, my opponent believes that a system can be white supremacist without being prejudiced. This is logically inconsistent. Let me give an example: lets say the legal system says that murder is illegal and murderers will be put in jail. We can all agree that this system is not prejudiced at all. Now lets say that colored people disproportionately commit much more murders then white people. This system will disproportionately effect black people, so my opponent would argue that it is a white supremacist system since it effects black people socially and economically.

This is why you cannot rely on this type of thinking: you need to show that the system is inherently prejudiced and is actively discriminating against black people, not simply that black people are negatively affected by this system much more than white people.

"One of the many ways white supremacy is able to function is due to economic power and the accumulation of resources from nations with primarily people of color. It is a fact that Africa is the most resource rich continent on the planet with an abundance of minerals including diamonds, coal, platinum, gold, and bauxite. Non whites make up the majority of the planet have are native to the majority of the land masses of the world. However, it is obvious that White owned countries of Europe and North America (excluding Mexico) are relatively economically stable as opposed to the majority of other nations that are either third world countries or developing countries"

You have to demonstrate that this economic disparity is a result of white supremacism. Simply saying that on average white countries are more rich that non-white countries doesn't mean that this is due to white supremacism. African countries throughout history have always been less technologically developed, economically and socially developed then European countries. This was the case before white people even came to some of these countries and colonized them.

"To understand white supremacy in antiquity, one must have a knowledge of history as well as politics and law. The Trans Atlantic slave trade between the mid 15th century and the mid 19th century involved a system of instigating/intensifying violence between the native Africans and capturing the refugees as well as buying prisoners of war, criminals, and indentured servants as slaves. The system used in the transatlantic slave trade involved 1)divide and conquer tactics 2) supply of firearms and alcohol 3) intense psychological damaging of slaves as a means of control 4) black elitist puppets to work for white interests (in my community, we call these "house niggas" as a slang term for collaborator/opportunist)"

This point is irrelevant to our discussion as slavery has been abolished.

"One example of this is France (a nation with military bases in several African countries) has been exposed for soldiers committing sexual abuse to black boys in the Central African Republic"

A couple racist individuals does not prove anything.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
Theres a case of black people raping whites.

"within the past two years and to this day, they force African former colonies to pay a "colonial tax" to France."

This is not true, I have not been able to find any colonial tax that France is paid by African colonies. Please provide a citation for this claim.

"And lastly, the "colonial pact" keeps French companies in Africa to cheat their former colonies out of better business deals in favor of giving industries to "former" oppressors."

I have not been able to find this "colonial pact" anywhere except for the article that you linked which comes from an "African Lifestyle Forum" and none of the claims it makes can be found anywhere else.
http://thisisafrica.me...
Which leads me to believe that this is an unfounded conspiracy theory, since these claims cannot be found on any reputable website when I tried to find them on google.

Since the source of this argument is unreliable this argument can be thrown out.

"With the detailed examples above, I hope to provide context for the general acts of enslavement, invasion, colonialism, genocide, etc. done throughout the planet with the system of white supremacy."

There are no detailed examples of systemic white supremacy.

" From the invasions of Africa(15th to 19th centuries), the Middle East(2000's), the Americas (15th to 19th century), 20th century Latin America, 17th century Oceania, 19th century opium wars in China, 19th to 20th century Dutch East Indies, "

We agreed at the beginning that this was a debate on current white supremacy. Even if there was white supremacy in the past is irrelevant.

"and more all the way up to modern day neocolonialism,"
Which you can't demonstrate
" mass incarceration of minorities"
Which is not white supremacy, it is simply a result of black people commiting more crimes
" manipulation of puppet states to *instigate conflict"
Citation needed
"use of bioweapons"
Citation needed

My opponent has not made any convincing arguments for the case that systemic white supremacy exists, so by the principle of innocent until proven guilty, we cannot incriminate white people of being supremacists without proof, so we can consider the claim "Systemic white supremacy exists" false.

Here is a simple counter argument:

1. Systemic white supremacy exists
2. A white supremacist system oppresses black people legally, militarily and economically
Therefore from 1 and 2: we conclude that
3. This prevents black people from holding powerful positions in these systems

This is a contradiction as many black people in America have positions of enormous power within these "White supremacist systems". America has a black president (twice), this would be impossible if the government and society were white supremacist. There are many black millionaires and two black billionaires, aswell as countless black celebrities, media figures and politicians with social influience.

Therefore 3 contradicts with the fact that many black people have huge political, economic and social influence. So we can conclude that Premise 1 is false.
Debate Round No. 2
AfroNazi

Pro

"We say you don't fight racism with racism. You fight racism with solidarity." - Fred Hampton, a chairman of the original Black Panther Party who was murdered by Chicago Police in front of his pregnant wife.

I would like to leave a short comment to put a close on black panther segment that was disingenuously delivered by my opponent:"... Clever comparing the original Black Panther Party to the Ku Klux Klan..." I clearly said 'original black panther party' and my opponent used quotes from the New Black Panther Party, which are two different organizations. The original Black Panther Party was destroyed by Countelpro program which was conducted by the FBI. J. Edgar Hoover was the director at the time, and he believed he was to stop the rise of a 'black messiah'. Also, the program, which was elaborate and involved; surveillance, informants, infiltration, instigation of conflict, and much more, was authorized by Robert Kennedy, who was pro civil rights. Though the KKK was an organization that illegally terrorized and killed people, they were not destroyed to the same degree (if at all) by the federal government. To this day, the welfare programs that the Black Panthers conducted to feed and support children of all races are now government services.

Since my opponent is accusing me of being a black supremacist (due to his willful ignorance of my statement as well as 'gross mischaracterization' of myself) I will give a brief analysis on two of my opponents statements.
" African countries throughout history have always been less technologically developed, economically and socially developed than European countries. This was the case before white people even came to some of these countries and colonized them."

This statement is very revealing in its ignorance and is yet another example of the system I speak of in the form of historical revisionism. Before the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Africa was filled with wealthy tribes, kingdoms, and empires. From ancient Egyptian astronomy and gold to West African mathematics and diamonds, Africa had knowledge and wealth in abundance. Africa is the origin of all science, technology, and math as well as the origin of humanity. I will try not to dwell on this too much as I would like to get back to my point.

"Now lets say that colored people disproportionately commit much more murders then white people. This system will disproportionately effect black people, so my opponent would argue that it is a white supremacist system since it effects black people socially and economically"

It is a fact that white people are the majority of the American population and blacks are the minority. Blacks, however, make up the majority of the prison population (not including other minorities). By my opponents logic: blacks are simply committing more crimes and this is normal. This is the problem with this type of thinking. With statements like this the elements of this system are evident and he is saying that this is merely the nature of blacks. See above where he clearly states that Africans are less civilized and he conveniently makes a note on race and crime afterwards. It has already been revealed that the "blacks commit the majority of crime" is a myth.

http://www.pewresearch.org...
https://www.fbi.gov...

My opponent insists that I meet his specific parameters for proving the point of my argument on the basis of him disagreeing with the definition I provided specifically for white supremacy as a system. This is a prime example of 'moving the goal post' and I will continue with the argument by providing my evidence or the system in question which has already been laid out in the first and second rounds

".....issues facing black people on a global scale from all fronts including psychology, health, and warfare."
"white supremacist power structure in psychology, health, warfare, sexuality, law, politics, and more.."
"a power structure that involves white control of resources, influences over people, population control, and anything pertaining to keeping whites in power with the ability to oppress others..."
My opponents disagreement with my definition of white supremacy (as an institution) is pettifogging semantics. With that in mind, I will waste less time and continue to put out the most I can in the remaining 2 rounds.

That being said, I do not accept the majority of your parameters. "prove that the government, and its institutions....run by people who believe white people are superior...."

I have already established the difference between white supremacy as "a power structure" and white supremacy as a belief with "people with prejudice and beliefs in racial superiority." I have also established that "the system of white supremacy is not based on prejudice or emotion but on power and influence."

"This point is irrelevant to our discussion as slavery has been abolished"

The point regarding the systemic structure of the transatlantic slave trade was clearly missed by my opponent. As well as where I stated, "with the above example, this shows that a systemic structure of whites antagonizing people of color using a number of tactics is not at all inconceivable." Also, blacks are still subject to enslavement in African countries from Europeans.
http://www.foodispower.org...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

"A couple racist individuals doesn't prove anything"
This is an oversimplification of a well documented event that is meant to add on to the overall point.
https://news.vice.com...

Colonial Tax
http://www.siliconafrica.com...
http://portside.org...
http://www.worldbulletin.net...

Colonial pact
https://penniwinkleb.wordpress.com...
http://www.thefreelibrary.com...'s+Colonial+Pact+with+Africa.-a0256805823
http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com...

I sincerely doubt my opponent researched the content of my argument. It has already been established that my opponent is positing that Africans were less civilized than Europeans and more criminal as well. That being said, I will waste less time with rebuttals and put more effort in providing evidence that I hope the audience will research or themselves.

"This is a contradiction as many black people in America have positions of enormous power.."
My opponent continues to move the goal post while making erroneous claims and asserting that the existence of black wealth debunks the system of white supremacy.

The notion that a black elite cannot exist in a white supremacist society is fallacious as there where wealthy blacks in America and Haiti during slavery/Jim Crowe and in Africa during colonialism. Often, the latter would work against their own people (as would many of the black elite to this day). This is to be expected as in every situation, there are always informants, opportunists, collaborators, rogues, etc.

http://www.voanews.com...
http://www.pbs.org...
http://newsone.com...

I will use the rest of this this round to provide more evidence of this system and its operation. I gave an example on how white supremacy operates within economics.
http://www.csmonitor.com...

Now, I will show the system of white supremacy in psychology. Black people have been brutalized by slavery, terrorized by Jim Crow, and silenced by the so called 'post racial' society of today. Collectively, blacks have faced immense psychological trauma and this has carried out through several generations. Many blacks fall into the category of 'self hatred' and 'slave mentality' in the west while blacks in Africa have a 'colonized mentality'. These bring in an inferiority complex as black people grow up subconsciously believing that whites are superior. This runs so deep that there needed to be a movement (that was fairly recent) to get black women to 'go natural' with their own hair.

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.nytimes.com...
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
This debate has 4 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.