Does the Biblical God have an absolute, perfect moral standard?
Debate Rounds (3)
I define the 'objective, perfect standard' as follows:
1: God's actions define his morality.
2: His morality is objective.
3: His moral values do not conflict with common sense and are within the bounds of reason and compassion.
My points are as follows:
1: He is depicted to condone slavery and the death penalty, and has also committed genocide. He has (allegedly) convinced a man to kill his own son, had 42 children mauled by bears for acting like children, and even wiped out almost all of the world's population rather than attempt to educate them!
2: The Ten Commandments are generally an unreliable moral standard:
I, II, III and IV are all commandments which intend to glorify the Christian God, but taking the 'honour the Sabbath' rule, for example, one will be sentenced to death for even picking up sticks for a fire!
The 'thou shalt not kill/steal/bear false witness' rules do conform with what we would consider 'perfect' morality, but the Christian God continues to kill people, either directly or indirectly afterwards.
The 'thou shalt not commit adultery' rule is fine unless one recognises that Jesus claims that lust immediately constitutes adultery, regardless of marital status.
'Thou shalt not covet' conflicts with modern capitalist ideology, but this is not entirely relevant to this topic.
'Honour thy father and thy mother' does not account for abuse or neglect, nor does it regard the actions of the parents themselves.
3: The Christian God betrays his own principles, as already stated, thus contradicting both his objectivity and moral perfection.
-I would like to point out that the opponent has not sourced any of his information which basically falsifies his whole argument and leads him to plagiarism. But I will still accept this challenge to give him something to feed off.
I would first like to point out morality since it is something that this whole debate is based off. I will provide evidence that God loves us unconditionally, according to the Bible. The proof that is being used: God let his son be crucified and die for the forgiveness of our sins. And if God has chosen his son to follow this fateful road for sinners to be saved can you just picture in your mind how much he actually cares about you. While Jesus was on a cross, he shouted to the heaves, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing."
According to the Prodigal son, this story explains God's love for children. In the story a man's son told his father to share the estate with the people, and the father took this estate and spent all of it on prostitutes and banquets. When the money was all gone, starvation and money crisis has swarm the land. The man then decided, "I will go to my father and say, 'Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and am no longer worthy of being called your son." Please take me on as a hired man." When he returned to his father, a piteous love has struck his father; he was happy to see his son. The son then decided to stay with the family until the end.
God's discipline: Jesus once prayed, "My prayer for all of them (the disciples and believers of all ages) is that they will be of one heart and mind, just as you and I are, Father...I in them and you in me, all being perfected into one -- so that the world will know you sent me and will understand that you love them as much as you love me." The most important aspect to consider is that God loves even the people who disobey to him. Hebrew 12 teaches that aspect, "My son, don't be angry when the Lord punishes you. Don't be discouraged when he has to show you where you are wrong. For when he punishes you, it proves that he loves you...Let God train you, for he is doing what any loving father does for his children. Whoever heard of a son who was never corrected "
Paul has once written, "Who then can ever keep Christ's love from us? When we have trouble or calamity, when we are hunted down or destroyed, is it because He doesn't love us anymore? And if we are hungry, or penniless, or in danger, or threatened with death, has God deserted us? No, for the Scriptures tell us that for his sake we must be ready to face death at every moment of the day -- we are like sheep awaiting slaughter; but despite all this overwhelming victory is ours though Christ who loved us enough to die for us." This proves God's ability to reach beyond any circumstances .
God is not a murderer
God did not kill people or cause slavery. Many skeptics say that God supports slavery, but God never approves slavery in the Bible. In fact, he banishes slavery. According to the Exodus 21:16, "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death ."
Secondly, God did not cause genocide. Now, well al heard of the story of Moses and Israelites forging for the promised land and killing everybody who stands in their way. Well, God has never told the Israelites to commit such violent acts. Israel, according to many commentators has most likely disobeyed to God. According to Saul, "The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with God’s will ."
As to the lack of condoning slavery, what about:
'However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.' (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
This seems to condone slavery, doesn't it?
Or how about:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
In other words, if a man buys a sex slave, he can keep her permanently as long as she is fed, clothed and used for sex!
There is disregard for the slaves' life:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
And although all my examples so far have been OT, NT has some passages like:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
He condones the killing of non-believers,
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Condemns a lack of killing,
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
He has killed people for curiosity,
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
And or protecting the Ark!
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
And I think I have made my particularly morbid point clear.
The Flood is a pretty obvious case of mass murder. The final plague goes like this:
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
"Slaughter of the innocent"
Take the Book of Job. God allowed Satan to kill all of Job's children, despite them being completely innocent. In addition, he rewarded Job's 'faith' with different children, thus effectively having killed 7 people!
He condones the killing of children whose only crime was to have an evil father:
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
And the killing of more children can be seen here.
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
I haven't the foggiest what your 'Prodigal son' story is about. This is about a father's love for his son. God is not involved.
You refer to 'God having his son sacrificed for us'. Technically, the Son is the Father, is he not? God is sacrificing himself to himself to appease himself! There is no substance in that!
How is it moral to condemn homosexuals and nonbelievers to death? Even more importantly, how is it moral to have people tortured for eternity?
The Bible actually does both. Simultaneously, it approves and disapproves slavery at some points. For instance:
"And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant (Genesis 9:25-27)."
"Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him naught; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee (Deuteronomy 15:9-10)."
"If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die. (v.7)"
"And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath (Genesis 24: 35-36)."
Secondly, I would like to point out genocide. The approval of Genocide/Murder was simply supposed to happen for revenge. the revenge that the Jews were supposed to take because the Egyptians have been tyrannizing their people. Read this phrase:
“The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ~’Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey (Samuel 15: 1-3).’”
I could already conclude that the people God told to kill were the people who did not abide by his rules and the people who were murderers and slave owners. The Egyptians as we all know kept the Jews in exile for a very long time. Also, the Canaanites were evil as well, and God has ordered the Jews to kill them. Even the Bible describes the evil that the Canaanites possessed. God told Abraham to leave the promised land and return soon after. For instance:
"Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete (Genesis 15:16).”
Officially, God wanted the people to find morality which they failed to do, these people were still wicked. And God has came to the judgement to punish them.
The third point is does God approve murder. The reason God does this is because he is trying to show the people what is good and what is wrong.
Back to slavery: "The Purpose of Slavery was to enrich slave and master together.
The Slave retires with the best of their master's goods, and is set for life.
If Humans failed to enforce Justice, there was God (Exodus 21: 7-9). "
Murder: The reason God told people to exterminate certain people was because they had sex with animals, and then these people caught a virus that was spreading among the human race; God told the people to kill them (Levictus 18:23).
[3 the book]: https://answers.yahoo.com...
Spicheren1870 forfeited this round.
Samuel60 forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by AdamKG 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeits in the last round. Most of con's biblical passages are taken out of context eliminating their usefulness for his case. Either con did not actually read the full passages or did not expect voters to actually research it themselves (which I did). I also question NAB translations. I prefer NIV or KJV.
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